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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#161 - 2016-10-12 18:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Fat Buddah wrote:
Here's a question:

Let's say I want a Black Ops BPC, but I have no skill.
Then I talk with some alliance dude on Discord and he's willing to help.
So I give him enough ISK to buy a single run BPC, required data cores, and the job installation fee. Also a bit of ISK for his trouble.
In short, I reach a deal with a dude through an external service, and hand over my ISK for a chance based outcome.
Am I breaking the new EULA?

No, because there is no "third party".

Players, even multiple players making deals, are the first party.
CCP is the second party.
Out of game sites like IWI are third parties.

CCP, being the second party, can still do chance based things. Discord is a third party, but its not accepting in-game assets or "rolling the dice".

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#162 - 2016-10-12 18:53:17 UTC
Jew Jew Binks wrote:
Kaoraku Shayiskhun wrote:
Toobo wrote:
Chribba's onto something here. There are many 'services' people pay for with ISK, such as TS hosting and websites, etc. What's up with all those?


You really can't read? Paying ISK for a service (especially for an ingame service) is not a gambling. Paying ISK for hosting a website not a gambling either.


it's RMT


Exactly. It is exchange of RL work/material/server cost etc for ISK. Only difference is that there is no 'chance based gambling element' involved. IWI was said to be shut down not because it's a gambling site, but because of RMT. So it's a legit question to ask at this point what they mean by RMT. The whole revised EULA is so hastily worded and not clear on many issues, evndienced by lots of people here asking about scenarios whether that would be ok or not in the new EULA.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#163 - 2016-10-12 18:54:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


So how much ISK was taken out of your wallet? P


While that is funny,he's also right. I don't think CCP has a choice giving that UK court case,but I also think this change is going to have a bad chilling effect on EVE, because like Grath said, the operations that got banned did drive a lot of value towards EVE, and i don't know if anything is going to be able to replace that.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2016-10-12 18:55:27 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I didn't do the gambling thing save a couple times I tried Somer Blink,so no big loss for me. And I think I lean towards the opinion that CCP should have never allowed it in the 1st place (same with ISBoxer). The legal implications shore up that belief for me.

All that said I will offer this one bit of Devil's Advocacy. CCP has a tendency to shoot it's self in the foot when making changes like this. Like with the whole skill que changes that lead to a decrease in logins. Or how the Sov changes almost guarantee there won't be another Asakai or B-R (ie huge battle that generates PR that leads to subs)

There will be negative unintended consequences behind this, because some people used the stuff the got from these gambling sites to create content, whether it's the guy who won that Cynabal that one time (and that led him to try solo pvp now he's doing it every day) or the shadowy "Broker-like" figure starting massive New Eden changing warsm (that generate real life news and thus subs) because some dude ticked him off.



Two things, Asakai was low sec, so only maybe kinda Sov related....if you squint really hard.

Second, sure it may have bad unintended outcomes, but apparently there was significant evidence of RMT which itself is bad.

And it isn't like IWI was out there starting a new war every other week. Hell, when Goons bunked off down south, that was it. He was done, the ISK dried up, and not really a reliable content creator.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#165 - 2016-10-12 18:56:18 UTC
Toobo wrote:
I said clearly ISK loss is not the major issue. RMTers deserve to get banned and their stuff confiscated, and any ISK given to RMTers can be removed from the game. I totally agree with that. Although I cashed out trillions from IWI, my ISK are safe as they are mine and in my hand and I have never RMTed.

But it seems you don't know how banking system worked in IWI. Bankers banked with their own ISK, within the limit they can afford with their personal ISK gained through legitimate means. But CCP confiscated all ISK from all bankers. It was a blanket punishment and players and bankers who may not have been involved with RMT suffered loss. The amount is not the issue here. It's about whether such blanket punishment is justifiable.



I look forward to the day that they catch up with you too.
Sebas Olgidar
The Reavers.
#166 - 2016-10-12 18:56:45 UTC
Trivia questions that have ISK / items as rewards...do those count as gambling ... 'cause it isn't a game of chance?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#167 - 2016-10-12 18:58:56 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.

Any scant amount of publicity aided by casino sponsorship was promoting a game where your in-game actions don't matter. The game is much better off now that you actually have to play it, rather than using it as an on-rails arcade shooter.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#168 - 2016-10-12 18:59:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


So how much ISK was taken out of your wallet? P


While that is funny,he's also right. I don't think CCP has a choice giving that UK court case,but I also think this change is going to have a bad chilling effect on EVE, because like Grath said, the operations that got banned did drive a lot of value towards EVE, and i don't know if anything is going to be able to replace that.


So...lets allow RMT? I can't believe that is your position. There does seem to be some correlation between gambling sites and RMT and EULA violations. Once a gambling site gets big enough....suddenly the RMT pops up and bans are applied, and lots of butthurt on the forums.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#169 - 2016-10-12 18:59:59 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


TMC did all of the above mentioned.

Without RMTing it all.

I never took money from IWI. Was never offered the money. Was never given money to stream (in-game money). I provided on average the MOST views for CCP and Twitch for eve online (average for 9 months was 900 viewers), almost triple that of other streamers like Ironbank.
Aldran Gentlharp
Unidentified Murderers and Young Hack Offenders
#170 - 2016-10-12 19:02:22 UTC
Just a suggestion for the dev blog. I think you should use a different color for the outdated Parts of the EULA then the new parts. Right now its hard to read.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2016-10-12 19:03:06 UTC
BTW, I'm not sure I believe this no more big battles because of the new sov.

The last big war PL, et. al. were just itching for such a battle, and the Goons knew it and did not give them that opportunity. It is doubtful that sov mechanics played a significant role.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nas Xafat
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#172 - 2016-10-12 19:04:15 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


I can not be more agree,
Cyber Fight'r
Doomheim
#173 - 2016-10-12 19:06:24 UTC
Well after all the years i will quit eve now.
@ CP create some content and dont punish the Community for doing it.
Eve is a boring Game now not worth playing it anymore
Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2016-10-12 19:07:48 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:

I look forward to the day that they catch up with you too.


That wasn't very nice, Ginger.

minerbumping

New Order Audio Archive

NEW! MinerBumping Video Vault
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#175 - 2016-10-12 19:08:45 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:
Toobo wrote:
I said clearly ISK loss is not the major issue. RMTers deserve to get banned and their stuff confiscated, and any ISK given to RMTers can be removed from the game. I totally agree with that. Although I cashed out trillions from IWI, my ISK are safe as they are mine and in my hand and I have never RMTed.

But it seems you don't know how banking system worked in IWI. Bankers banked with their own ISK, within the limit they can afford with their personal ISK gained through legitimate means. But CCP confiscated all ISK from all bankers. It was a blanket punishment and players and bankers who may not have been involved with RMT suffered loss. The amount is not the issue here. It's about whether such blanket punishment is justifiable.



I look forward to the day that they catch up with you too.


You want to bet? ;) I bet you 500 billion ISK that CCP will not find any evidence of me doing RMT. You report me to CCP now and tell them you suspect that I RMT, so they have legitimate reasons to investigate me. Go on. Put your ISK on the line because your words are cheap. I'll use third party like Chribba for this bet, if you accept. This will be based on all in game transactions, so not bannable offense.

You don't have 500b ISK to bet? You don't have confidence enough in your implication that I may be involved with RMT? Do it baby. I'll cover the third party fee in full.

500b bet between you and me. You petition me to CCP for RMT, and if CCP finds me not guilty, I take your 500b. If CCP finds me guilty, you get 500b.

Let me know when you are ready to do that and put something at stake instead of throwing cheap words that don't cost you nothing with absolutely no reason to back it up. I'm ready to put in 500b for this bet any time. Either you take it or chicken out into your little hole and don't talk shite again.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2016-10-12 19:08:55 UTC
Cyber Fight'r wrote:
Well after all the years i will quit eve now.
@ CP create some content and dont punish the Community for doing it.
Eve is a boring Game now not worth playing it anymore


RMT is not content.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#177 - 2016-10-12 19:13:48 UTC
Good news that CCP have removed this scourge from the game. Gambling sites provided short term publicity for the game, but at long term cost.

If money made out of game can be used to control events in game, and make remuneration for even the highest in game achievements seem minuscule by comparison, then that is bad for the game and bad for CCP's image when trying to attract new players.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#178 - 2016-10-12 19:14:33 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

Right now: CCP has the right to terminate your account immediately if you don't pay
After: CCP will notify you 90 days before terminating you if you don't pay
Reality: CCP hasn't ever used this clause

Why people are up in arms about getting 90 days notice to something CCP currently has the right to do immediately is beyond me.

The new EULA wording says nothing about giving notice:
Quote:
CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) your account has been inactive for a number of 90 days;

It simply reserves CCP's right to close your accounts if any of them is inactive for 90 days.

What bothers me is the use of the word "all" that I've highlighted. That means that if you have several accounts and any one of them becomes inactive CCP may close ALL of them - even those that are fully subbed.

That may not be the intention, but it's what that wording means.


You're right. Not 90 days notice
But what it is saying is that instead of being able to terminate you the moment you unusb (and you have to unsub for this to affect you) that you have 90 days post-unsub before they can.

Yes, it's probably a bit poorly worded in regard to "all accounts" but that part hasn't changed. The only part that changed was the part giving you 90 days of inactivity before it takes effect.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#179 - 2016-10-12 19:14:33 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Jew Jew Binks wrote:
Kaoraku Shayiskhun wrote:
Toobo wrote:
Chribba's onto something here. There are many 'services' people pay for with ISK, such as TS hosting and websites, etc. What's up with all those?


You really can't read? Paying ISK for a service (especially for an ingame service) is not a gambling. Paying ISK for hosting a website not a gambling either.


it's RMT


Exactly. It is exchange of RL work/material/server cost etc for ISK. Only difference is that there is no 'chance based gambling element' involved. IWI was said to be shut down not because it's a gambling site, but because of RMT. So it's a legit question to ask at this point what they mean by RMT. The whole revised EULA is so hastily worded and not clear on many issues, evndienced by lots of people here asking about scenarios whether that would be ok or not in the new EULA.


WTF...seriously, there is s a pretty clear definition of RMT, they found a way to exchange ISK for RL currency. That's it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#180 - 2016-10-12 19:14:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Good afternoon capsuleers!

Today we're here to announce some changes to the EVE Online EULA that are coming with the launch of EVE Online: Ascension.

You can read all about them in this Dev Blog, which includes a handy red-lined version of the new EULA that will come into effect on Tuesday, November 8th, 2016.


Updates & Clarifications:

The 90 day clause:

Our policy on inactive accounts has not changed, we have simply shortened the notice period from six months to three months due to a potentially higher volume of account creation.


Not going to read through all this to see if anybody had called you guys out on it but here:

So to be clear, after years of free publicity as these sites sponsored places like EN24, CZ, alllllllll the podcasts that got you attention on twitch and gaming sites, after they carry your tournament this year for the first bit and do an arguably better job than you yourself have this year, after all that, you're just going to take a heaving dump on their chest and outright shut them down because of .........

What a great way to thank your playerbase for its years of service keeping your company afloat.


So your own media is sparse, who do you suggest pays the writers that generate interest in your game now? Who pays the streamers that give newer players a glimpse of a game they might get hooked on?

Your community held you up when you were down, and your response to that is to purposely gut everything that currently generates content from the player base.


EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.


So how much ISK was taken out of your wallet? P


None

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.