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Novermber Miner "Updates" and Miner bumping.

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Black Pedro
Mine.
#21 - 2016-10-12 06:25:46 UTC
Dagger Micstilson wrote:
The cost being the mining bumping will now actually effect mining production, and be able to stop mining boosting all together in high sec, and this is unacceptable. Actually bumping boosting Orcas out of range will soon be a reality. Gankers/bumpers will now be able to cripple high sec mining ops at will with no more then a bumping ship.

This requires attention and if it does not receive any in the next week, it will be spread through the mining community.

This is a deliberate attack on miners, not just multiboxers, in a Trojan horse 'esc' in sheeps clothing to make it look like a great favor while completely screwing high sec mining, especially multiboxing.

This is an attack on high sec minors.
"Oh no, there is a possibility that for a short fraction of my mining time I might not get the theoretical maximum boost! Won't someone think of muh ISK/h!"

Friend, of course it is a "deliberate attack" on miners. CCP has put you at (some very marginal) risk to the other players as befits a the competitive sandbox game they are developing. You are suppose to adjust your game play according to the actions of the other players, and sometimes, they are going to want to bump you. The Orca is a big ship with lots of things going for it, but does have downsides like it is slow and bump-able and you have to deal with that.

If you find yourself getting bumped, you can do plenty of things from getting yourself a permit to ganking the bumper. You can also just fly a Porpoise which should be able to be fit in a very bump-resistant way and still provide good boosts.

Personally though, I am looking forward to the "boost" in player interaction resulting from the proliferation of Orcas (and Rorquals outside of highsec) out in the belts come November.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2016-10-12 06:51:05 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
"Oh no, there is a possibility that for a short fraction of my mining time I might not get the theoretical maximum boost! Won't someone think of muh ISK/h!"

Friend, of course it is a "deliberate attack" on miners. CCP has put you at (some very marginal) risk to the other players as befits a the competitive sandbox game they are developing. You are suppose to adjust your game play according to the actions of the other players, and sometimes, they are going to want to bump you. The Orca is a big ship with lots of things going for it, but does have downsides like it is slow and bump-able and you have to deal with that.

If you find yourself getting bumped, you can do plenty of things from getting yourself a permit to ganking the bumper. You can also just fly a Porpoise which should be able to be fit in a very bump-resistant way and still provide good boosts.

Personally though, I am looking forward to the "boost" in player interaction resulting from the proliferation of Orcas (and Rorquals outside of highsec) out in the belts come November.

Maybe they can "boost" high sec some more and bring back the old system, so Hi-sec doesn't look like a lawless ghetto.

"You lose security status for any form of aggression towards another player that has a security rating above -5.0. Mathematics never was my strong point, but it's plain to see that without regular trips to a safe haven with a lot of pirate faction ships floating around to shoot at, you will find that it drops rapidly to the point where it impedes your travel through higher security solar systems and can eventually lead to you being locked out of systems that have a security level higher than 0.4. The basic system for status loss is:

-0.5% standing loss will occur on initial aggression of your target.

-2.0% standing loss will occur on the destruction of your target's ship.

-12.5% standing loss will occur on the destruction of your target's capsule.

The percentages for loss are shown here but this percentage is applied to the difference between your current security status and -10. For example, if you have a security status of 1.0 and aggress a target, you will take a penalty of 0.5%, which removes 0.045 points of security status.

A sharp drop in your security status can leave you locked out from high-security space, unable to access any assets that you have stored in your hangars in those locations.As well as you not being permitted to travel through systems with this security rating or higher, the local navy patrols will ensure this by means of a healthy dose of good old ECM and firepower to cut your ship from under you. They will, however, be merciful and allow you to leave, embarrassed and in shame, in the safe comfort of your little brown blinking egg.

SECURITY LOCKOUT

It's a good idea to know where the cut-off points are for access to solar systems with any given security status. A character will have to possess a security status equal to or greater than the following levels:

-1.99 for access to 1.0 security level systems
-2.49 for access to 0.9 security level systems
-2.99 for access to 0.8 security level systems
-3.49 for access to 0.7 security level systems
-3.99 for access to 0.6 security level systems
-4.99 for access to 0.5 security level systems"

--EvE Online Player guide. Piracy section.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#23 - 2016-10-12 06:58:11 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
*snip*


What are you talking about? This "old system" has been there forever.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#24 - 2016-10-12 07:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
There is an easy counter to bumping:

A mining permit for only 10mil ISK per miner and mining support ship.

Our Agents are standing by to receive your permit request OP.

EDIT:
Also I want to thank our goonswarm overlords for making all this possible*

*The New Order is a separate group of players and in no way affiliated with the protected minority also known as goonswarm

Evil RatKid
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2016-10-12 07:23:36 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
*snip*


What are you talking about? This "old system" has been there forever.

Yeah -10s are so locked out that they can just keep killing in systems
https://zkillboard.com/system/30002053/

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#26 - 2016-10-12 07:28:14 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
SECURITY LOCKOUT

It's a good idea to know where the cut-off points are for access to solar systems with any given security status. A character will have to possess a security status equal to or greater than the following levels:

-1.99 for access to 1.0 security level systems
-2.49 for access to 0.9 security level systems
-2.99 for access to 0.8 security level systems
-3.49 for access to 0.7 security level systems
-3.99 for access to 0.6 security level systems
-4.99 for access to 0.5 security level systems"

--EvE Online Player guide. Piracy section.
I don't know where you are getting this text (and as far as I am aware it never reflected actual Eve gameplay at any point) but CCP has recently published a version of their player guide, the New Pilot FAQ, which spells out exactly what they expect players to do in highsec:
Section 5.2 wrote:

WHO IS CONCORD AND WHAT ROLE DO THEY PERFORM?
CONCORD can be considered to be the ‘space police’ who patrol the higher security areas of New Eden. They take action against those who attack others without justification and will hunt such miscreants down and destroy them without mercy. However, their role is not to prevent an attack but to punish an aggressor. Should you find yourself under fire from another pilot, CONCORD may not arrive in time to help you, so it will be down to your skill and the strength of your ship to prevail. CONCORD are also responsible for the security status of pilots, which is essentially a penalty/reward system and your status will increase or decrease depending on your actions. Actions that are for the good of all, such as destroying NPC pirates and undertaking certain missions will increase your status. Actions that are considered criminal acts, such as attacking another player or destroying their property without just cause will result in a decrease in status; not to mention a heavily armed CONCORD fleet turning up to show you the error of your ways. If your security status should become too low, this may make higher security systems difficult for a pilot to navigate through due to CONCORD presence.


You should probably read the whole thing. You are expected to defend yourself in highsec, not CONCORD. They are just there to punish offenders and impose retribution/cost on them, not lock people out of whole sectors of the game or protect you.

Sure you can pine for some mythical version of Eve where NPCs do all your dirty work for you and you are isolated from the rest of the game and can grind in peace, but that will just leave you impotently shaking your fist at the bumpers/gankers (and it seems CCP) when player interaction comes a-knockin'. I think you will find it more productive to take a proactive approach, and come up with ways to protect yourself from the tiny risks you are at in modern highsec, which is the safest it has ever been.

Trust me, CCP has given you plenty of tools. Go learn them.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2016-10-12 07:36:53 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
SECURITY LOCKOUT

It's a good idea to know where the cut-off points are for access to solar systems with any given security status. A character will have to possess a security status equal to or greater than the following levels:

-1.99 for access to 1.0 security level systems
-2.49 for access to 0.9 security level systems
-2.99 for access to 0.8 security level systems
-3.49 for access to 0.7 security level systems
-3.99 for access to 0.6 security level systems
-4.99 for access to 0.5 security level systems"

--EvE Online Player guide. Piracy section.
I don't know where you are getting this text (and as far as I am aware it never reflected actual Eve gameplay at any point) but CCP has recently published a version of their player guide, the New Pilot FAQ, which spells out exactly what they expect players to do in highsec:
Section 5.2 wrote:

WHO IS CONCORD AND WHAT ROLE DO THEY PERFORM?
CONCORD can be considered to be the ‘space police’ who patrol the higher security areas of New Eden. They take action against those who attack others without justification and will hunt such miscreants down and destroy them without mercy. However, their role is not to prevent an attack but to punish an aggressor. Should you find yourself under fire from another pilot, CONCORD may not arrive in time to help you, so it will be down to your skill and the strength of your ship to prevail. CONCORD are also responsible for the security status of pilots, which is essentially a penalty/reward system and your status will increase or decrease depending on your actions. Actions that are for the good of all, such as destroying NPC pirates and undertaking certain missions will increase your status. Actions that are considered criminal acts, such as attacking another player or destroying their property without just cause will result in a decrease in status; not to mention a heavily armed CONCORD fleet turning up to show you the error of your ways. If your security status should become too low, this may make higher security systems difficult for a pilot to navigate through due to CONCORD presence.


You should probably read the whole thing. You are expected to defend yourself in highsec, not CONCORD. They are just there to punish offenders and impose retribution/cost on them, not lock people out of whole sectors of the game or protect you.

Sure you can pine for some mythical version of Eve where NPCs do all your dirty work for you and you are isolated from the rest of the game and can grind in peace, but that will just leave you impotently shaking your fist at the bumpers/gankers (and it seems CCP) when player interaction comes a-knockin'. I think you will find it more productive to take a proactive approach, and come up with ways to protect yourself from the tiny risks you are at in modern highsec, which is the safest it has ever been.

Trust me, CCP has given you plenty of tools. Go learn them.

Where I got that was the original players guide. Not the lets cater to the pirates, because they cried so much version, that has left HI-sec so empty. Actions used to have consequences, ganks were harder.

They used to block pirates after a certain point and Hi-sec was actually Hi-sec. That is the difference between Hi-sec over time. Risk used to equal reward, not using cheap ships to kill what ever you please.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#28 - 2016-10-12 07:39:45 UTC
The only thing that has ever happened for being an outlaw is as included in the text, the local navy shoots you in the face.

In that respect, you aren't allowed in the system, but it's never been a gates closed type of lockout, just a 'don't linger here' type of lockout.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2016-10-12 07:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Scipio Artelius wrote:
The only thing that has ever happened for being an outlaw is as included in the text, the local navy shoots you in the face.

In that respect, you aren't allowed in the system, but it's never been a gates closed type of lockout, just a 'don't linger here' type of lockout.

The gates also used to lock on you if you attacked someone near them.

This is what it became in 2011. Very early on they stopped the gate locking.

Security Status and Traveling Restrictions

How does my security status affect my ability to travel?

Security status, or lack thereof, can have a big impact on your ability to travel through the EVE universe. Players with sufficiently low security status will be attacked by the empire navies if they enter high security systems.

Here is a brief list of your travelling options according to security status:

Players with -2.0 or worse will be attacked in 1.0 systems
Players with -2.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.9 systems
Players with -3.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.8 systems
Players with -3.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.7 systems
Players with -4.0 or worse will be attacked in 0.6 systems
Players with -4.5 or worse will be attacked in 0.5 systems

Once your security status reaches -5 you are considered an outlaw and can be attacked by players anywhere without CONCORD intervention.

Note that players with low security status can freely enter high security systems; They are not attacked by CONCORD, but by the much weaker (but still formidable) empire police forces. This will prevent them from operating effectively within high security space, but outlaw attacks in high security are still possible.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#30 - 2016-10-12 07:52:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Mark Marconi wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
The only thing that has ever happened for being an outlaw is as included in the text, the local navy shoots you in the face.

In that respect, you aren't allowed in the system, but it's never been a gates closed type of lockout, just a 'don't linger here' type of lockout.

The gates also used to lock on you if you attacked someone near them.

This is what it became in 2011. Very early on they stopped the gate locking.

They still do. Always have.

In lowsec even as well.

Gates have never been closed to outlaws, but they always have and still do lock you and shoot you if you commit any suspect or criminal level action in front of them.

They have 167 DPS each, omni damage and 150km range.

Go look at the killboard stats for the sentry guns:

Amarr Sentry: https://zkillboard.com/ship/1194/
Gallente Sentry: https://zkillboard.com/ship/3742/
Minmatar Sentry: https://zkillboard.com/ship/3743/
Caldari I - III: https://zkillboard.com/ship/3740/ , https://zkillboard.com/ship/3741/ , https://zkillboard.com/ship/3739/
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#31 - 2016-10-12 07:52:50 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
blub

This is actually exactly how it works now OP. The navy does indeed shoots and scrams me if I enter a system > 0.5.

Now since this is implemented already is the game now considered fixed for you?

Evil RatKid
Black Pedro
Mine.
#32 - 2016-10-12 07:54:59 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Where I got that was the original players guide. Not the lets cater to the pirates, because they cried so much version, that has left HI-sec so empty. Actions used to have consequences, ganks were harder.

They used to block pirates after a certain point and Hi-sec was actually Hi-sec. That is the difference between Hi-sec over time. Risk used to equal reward, not using cheap ships to kill what ever you please.
I am pretty sure an absolute lockout of highsec was never in the game. And if it was, it certainly hasn't been the case for the last decade or more since CONCORD was added to the game.

Ganks were trivial back in the day. At some points, you made a profit from insurance alone even if you completely failed. Ganking was also probably more common. In 2012, Dr. Eyjo said Exhumer ganking was at an all-time low (it's in the CSM minutes) and rates haven't changed too much since then. In fact, highsec has received buff after buff to safety making ganking, certainly for a profit, the hardest it ever has been.

It's fine if you want to sit on your porch in your rocking chair moaning about the good ol' days and what could have been, but that won't help you deal with the reality of the game. CCP wants you to be able to interact with pirates in highsec, and they want pirates to be able to interact with you so deal with that. They aren't going to make that impossible by keeping the players separate.

Why are we talking about security status though? This is completely off-topic. The topic is bumping (and bumping is completely cool with CONCORD) and the new golden age of miner bumping that we might be on the cusp of.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2016-10-12 08:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Black Pedro wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Where I got that was the original players guide. Not the lets cater to the pirates, because they cried so much version, that has left HI-sec so empty. Actions used to have consequences, ganks were harder.

They used to block pirates after a certain point and Hi-sec was actually Hi-sec. That is the difference between Hi-sec over time. Risk used to equal reward, not using cheap ships to kill what ever you please.
I am pretty sure an absolute lockout of highsec was never in the game. And if it was, it certainly hasn't been the case for the last decade or more since CONCORD was added to the game.

Ganks were trivial back in the day. At some points, you made a profit from insurance alone even if you completely failed. Ganking was also probably more common. In 2012, Dr. Eyjo said Exhumer ganking was at an all-time low (it's in the CSM minutes) and rates haven't changed too much since then. In fact, highsec has received buff after buff to safety making ganking, certainly for a profit, the hardest it ever has been.

It's fine if you want to sit on your porch in your rocking chair moaning about the good ol' days and what could have been, but that won't help you deal with the reality of the game. CCP wants you to be able to interact with pirates in highsec, and they want pirates to be able to interact with you so deal with that. They aren't going to make that impossible by keeping the players separate.

Why are we talking about security status though? This is completely off-topic. The topic is bumping (and bumping is completely cool with CONCORD) and the new golden age of miner bumping that we might be on the cusp of.

The lock outs were actually in to 2003 era.

Actually the destroyer buffs made ganking a lot easier, mostly due to the damage output vs the cost.

The problem is a lot of PvE players don't want to interact with pirates and so took their money and left. The fact that there are -10s running a round in Hi-sec on a slaughter will not bode well come next month and CCP are going to lose a huge chance to re-roll this game.

As for me I am the paranoid industrialist, so I am tanked as best as you can, within a reasonable risk vs reward margin of course.
edit on the bumping, with the timer, that will make it interesting to see if the gankers can get organised enough.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#34 - 2016-10-12 08:11:20 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Actually the destroyer buffs made ganking a lot easier, mostly due to the damage output vs the cost.

So if we go back to the topic then it should actually be easy for the OP to just gank the bumper. Problem solved. Thanks.

Mark Marconi wrote:
The problem is a lot of PvE players don't want to interact with pirates and so took their money and left.

CCP's study about why people quit shows the exact opposite to your simple gut feelings. I suggest you bring actual evidence if you want to argue the complete opposite

Evil RatKid
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#35 - 2016-10-12 08:14:27 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
The lock outs were actually in to 2003 era.

Nope. They've never locked anyone out of systems.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2016-10-12 08:17:18 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Actually the destroyer buffs made ganking a lot easier, mostly due to the damage output vs the cost.

So if we go back to the topic then it should actually be easy for the OP to just gank the bumper. Problem solved. Thanks.

Mark Marconi wrote:
The problem is a lot of PvE players don't want to interact with pirates and so took their money and left.

CCP's study about why people quit shows the exact opposite to your simple gut feelings. I suggest you bring actual evidence if you want to argue the complete opposite

Except CCP didn't

They showed and presented that NEW players did not quit due to ganking.

Maybe you would like to show proof that the industrialists didn't leave in droves because they got sick of being ganked because I know a hell of a lot of people I used to mine with did.

As to the bumper, if their sec status is below -5 everyone should be allowed to kill them, with or without bumping.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#37 - 2016-10-12 08:20:18 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
The problem is a lot of PvE players don't want to interact with pirates and so took their money and left. The fact that there are -10s running a round in Hi-sec on a slaughter will not bode well come next month and CCP are going to lose a huge chance to re-roll this game.
Then these PvE players were playing the wrong game and made the right choice to leave. Eve was always a full-time, open-world PvP sandbox, and if they weren't enjoying that gameplay, they were making a poor choice to play such a game with their free time.

But I think your fears are misplaced. -10s have been running around highsec for most of this game's existence, including the period of time when Eve was growing the fastest. I see no reason why they are suddenly going to kill Eve now, so many years into this game's existence.

Bringing this back to the OP though, I think I might have to spend some time tonight to see if there is a viable alpha clone miner bumping fit. I think there might be some new players arriving shortly who will want to experience all the joys Eve has to offer.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
roberts dragon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-10-12 08:20:56 UTC
with the bumping why don't you ask ccp to make bumping act of war so when you are bumped it is same as being attacked , mind you at places like jita they would need some traffic lights .

if you don't like the way things are thing of ways to change them , for example if not many in 1 sector just super nova it if , not enough wars then have no npc corps .

since game is sandbox you need to have sandbox ideas
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2016-10-12 08:21:21 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
The lock outs were actually in to 2003 era.

Nope. They've never locked anyone out of systems.

My apologies. You are right, they only tried that on the test server.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#40 - 2016-10-12 08:30:29 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
The problem is a lot of PvE players don't want to interact with pirates and so took their money and left. The fact that there are -10s running a round in Hi-sec on a slaughter will not bode well come next month and CCP are going to lose a huge chance to re-roll this game.

As for me I am the paranoid industrialist, so I am tanked as best as you can, within a reasonable risk vs reward margin of course.
edit on the bumping, with the timer, that will make it interesting to see if the gankers can get organised enough.


If you can tank up your ship, so can new players. Procurers are cheap as dirt, partly because they're very rarely ganked.

For those who don't want to be affected by other players' actions, SiSi's doors are open 23/7. The test server can satisfy all your "Minecraft in safe mode" needs. When you play on Tranquility, you affect the game world with the ore you sell in the open market. This is why the game world must have ways to affect you, too. The only kind of perfectly safe highsec that is acceptable is one where you can only mine a very depleted version of Veldspar and do level 1-2 missions. Otherwise, we get fleets of botting Hulks stripping entire belts within minutes.

Suggestions to help solo players, weak players, and small entities don't have such a strong opposition because we hate new players and want to kill the game. It's because any buff can and will be abused by competitive veterans, so in the end of the day the changes only lead to pissing everyone off instead of helping the targeted audience.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec