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[News] BREAKING: Origin Invaded!
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2016-10-11 04:17:56 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
'Transhumanity' is a useful term because it refers to humans who have, by means of technology or eugenics or etc, transcended the human limits. Inside, they still have the human spirit, but, well, they had become something more than human.

Think about it in capsuleer terms. By all appearance, origins, thought, we are humans. However, we aren't your regular humans. Not anymore. We had become different in quite a number of ways, including the ability to cheat death on a regular basis. This 'transcending' over the limit of death is what makes us transhumans. We are, by all accounts, especially by our genetic coding, humans. It's just, well...we are also different now.

There's a good reason why the universal symbol for transhumanism is [H+].

Though there is something that has bothered me for a long while. It is understood in my culture that there are spirits in all things, from the highest mountain to the most microscopic of space dust. As such, the prosthetics too have spirits, as do every component in every machine really.

So, when they merge with each other, do the individual components still retain their spirit? Or do the spirits merge too? Or does this means that every individual and everything else are actually a conglomerate of spirits, a spirit composite, of which there is one dominant spirit that represents all the others that make up the individual? Does the spirit of the mechanical augment remain an individual, or does it join with our human spirit? Is our human spirit made out of multiple organ spirits?


Mr. Egivand?

So-- here's the thing. The point of a tool is to extend human capabilities. From a crude wrench to a potholder to a Caracal-- they all serve to extend our abilities beyond the basic human animal.

If you tell me we're changing things fundamental to being human (this was my predecessor's argument), I respond that a stick is an arm extension, a chair or stool is a leg extension (ask anyone short), prosthetic limbs date all the way back to the first walking stick, and cutting out a cancer is artificial removal of a part of being human that's inadvertently trying to kill you.

If we take H for human, and H+ for human with additonal capabilities that don't come as part of the basic biological package, H+ is any tool-using human. Which, is basically any human not in a persistent vegetative state. We've been doing this since before recorded history-- before the Ancients, I'm sure (I'd guess it's how the Ancients became the Ancients).

Electronics, writing, guns-- it's none of it original equipment, and it changes the kinds of creatures we are enormously. It changes how we live, how we act, how we think of ourselves.

The modern human is already H+++++++++++ to the Nth degree of "+." It's extremely hard to find people who function as a basic H.

I don't admit that any of the tools around me make me meaningfully more than human. Our tools are very much a part of our humanity; we're exquisitely well-designed for inventing and using them.

Our humanity doesn't change just because we start tinkering with some things we haven't been able to tinker with, before.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2016-10-11 04:45:08 UTC
Judging by the urgency of the posting by ALXVP in this thread I am going to guess that the invasion is not a serious threat.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2016-10-11 05:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
'Transhumanity' is a useful term because it refers to humans who have, by means of technology or eugenics or etc, transcended the human limits. Inside, they still have the human spirit, but, well, they had become something more than human.

Think about it in capsuleer terms. By all appearance, origins, thought, we are humans. However, we aren't your regular humans. Not anymore. We had become different in quite a number of ways, including the ability to cheat death on a regular basis. This 'transcending' over the limit of death is what makes us transhumans. We are, by all accounts, especially by our genetic coding, humans. It's just, well...we are also different now.

There's a good reason why the universal symbol for transhumanism is [H+].

Though there is something that has bothered me for a long while. It is understood in my culture that there are spirits in all things, from the highest mountain to the most microscopic of space dust. As such, the prosthetics too have spirits, as do every component in every machine really.

So, when they merge with each other, do the individual components still retain their spirit? Or do the spirits merge too? Or does this means that every individual and everything else are actually a conglomerate of spirits, a spirit composite, of which there is one dominant spirit that represents all the others that make up the individual? Does the spirit of the mechanical augment remain an individual, or does it join with our human spirit? Is our human spirit made out of multiple organ spirits?


Mr. Egivand?

So-- here's the thing. The point of a tool is to extend human capabilities. From a crude wrench to a potholder to a Caracal-- they all serve to extend our abilities beyond the basic human animal.

If you tell me we're changing things fundamental to being human (this was my predecessor's argument), I respond that a stick is an arm extension, a chair or stool is a leg extension (ask anyone short), prosthetic limbs date all the way back to the first walking stick, and cutting out a cancer is artificial removal of a part of being human that's inadvertently trying to kill you.

If we take H for human, and H+ for human with additonal capabilities that don't come as part of the basic biological package, H+ is any tool-using human. Which, is basically any human not in a persistent vegetative state. We've been doing this since before recorded history-- before the Ancients, I'm sure (I'd guess it's how the Ancients became the Ancients).

Electronics, writing, guns-- it's none of it original equipment, and it changes the kinds of creatures we are enormously. It changes how we live, how we act, how we think of ourselves.

The modern human is already H+++++++++++ to the Nth degree of "+." It's extremely hard to find people who function as a basic H.

I don't admit that any of the tools around me make me meaningfully more than human. Our tools are very much a part of our humanity; we're exquisitely well-designed for inventing and using them.

Our humanity doesn't change just because we start tinkering with some things we haven't been able to tinker with, before.


Now here's the problem. The tools aren't turned into an integral part of ourselves, hence isn't part of the [H+] equation. If we are to take the gun and then integrate into our very bodies, to be manipulated by muscle analogs and nervous impulses, that is [H+]. If we just take a gun in our hands and pull the trigger, that isn't [H+]. The point here is that we use these to enhance our bodies and our biological system, make it part of our very being.

To use tools is human. To use medicines and supplements to extend our lifespan to the biological maximum, this is human. To turn the tool into our very being in order to extend the limits of what our bodies can do, that's [H+]. To gene-edit ourselves to be virtually immune to all diseases, this is [H+]. To turn ourselves into a digital existence and making the biological limit of age irrelevant, that is also [H+].

Actually no. Turning ourselves into a purely digital existence to who all biological concerns such as age, hunger, sickness and etc is no longer relevant is posthumanism.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#44 - 2016-10-11 05:13:45 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Judging by the urgency of the posting by ALXVP in this thread I am going to guess that the invasion is not a serious threat.

it was, but the threat has largely passed.

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2016-10-11 06:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Now here's the problem. The tools aren't turned into an integral part of ourselves, hence isn't part of the [H+] equation. If we are to take the gun and then integrate into our very bodies, to be manipulated by muscle analogs and nervous impulses, that is [H+]. If we just take a gun in our hands and pull the trigger, that isn't [H+]. The point here is that we use these to enhance our bodies and our biological system, make it part of our very being.

To use tools is human. To use medicines and supplements to extend our lifespan to the biological maximum, this is human. To turn the tool into our very being in order to extend the limits of what our bodies can do, that's [H+]. To gene-edit ourselves to be virtually immune to all diseases, this is [H+]. To turn ourselves into a digital existence and making the biological limit of age irrelevant, that is also [H+].

Actually no. Turning ourselves into a purely digital existence to who all biological concerns such as age, hunger, sickness and etc is no longer relevant is posthumanism.


Again, prostheses and modifications are nothing new. Pacemakers. Earrings (show me one person whose ear lobes glitter naturally). Glass eyes. A clone is just a full prosthetic body-- and the tools that do the heavy lifting aren't even onboard the clone.

My cloning net isn't part of me; it's part of my pod. My pod isn't part of me; it's this external thing that a bunch of ports on the back of my neck and spine plug into.

You're saying that these aren't "H+," but peg legs and dental fillings are?


(A stick is just a prosthetic limb [hee] with the additional feature of being detachable.)
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2016-10-11 06:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Now here's the problem. The tools aren't turned into an integral part of ourselves, hence isn't part of the [H+] equation. If we are to take the gun and then integrate into our very bodies, to be manipulated by muscle analogs and nervous impulses, that is [H+]. If we just take a gun in our hands and pull the trigger, that isn't [H+]. The point here is that we use these to enhance our bodies and our biological system, make it part of our very being.

To use tools is human. To use medicines and supplements to extend our lifespan to the biological maximum, this is human. To turn the tool into our very being in order to extend the limits of what our bodies can do, that's [H+]. To gene-edit ourselves to be virtually immune to all diseases, this is [H+]. To turn ourselves into a digital existence and making the biological limit of age irrelevant, that is also [H+].

Actually no. Turning ourselves into a purely digital existence to who all biological concerns such as age, hunger, sickness and etc is no longer relevant is posthumanism.


Again, prostheses and modifications are nothing new. Pacemakers. Earrings (show me one person whose ear lobes glitter naturally). Glass eyes. A clone is just a full prosthetic body-- and the tools that do the heavy lifting aren't even onboard the clone.

My cloning net isn't part of me; it's part of my pod. My pod isn't part of me; it's this external thing that a bunch of ports on the back of my neck and spine plug into.

You're saying that these aren't "H+," but peg legs and dental fillings are?


(A stick is just a prosthetic limb [hee] with the additional feature of being detachable.)


You do not get it. A prosthetic that does not enhance the body's performance to be beyond the base limit is not an augment and is not part of the [H+] equation. A pacemaker is designed to fix a flaw to bring the heart's performance back to its normal levels, not over it. Earrings do not enhance the human body, it is purely cosmetic. Glass eyes do not restore sight. Again, not part of transhumanism.

A clone is a prosthetic body, yes. What is actually the enhanced part is what's in the head. The implants in our head, that enhances our speed of learning, to not only acquire the knowledge at the rapid rate, but to also comprehend, internalise and practice almost by reflex. This is transhumanism. The implants that allows us to connect to the vast information network that is the Galnet, to pull from it any information and data we could ever need with a single thought, bypassing the time it takes to work the fingers to type a keyword. This is enhancement, and therefore part of the transhumanistic agenda. And how about the neural link to the starship, to control the ship as though it were our own body, to carry our minds to faraway places at will? This is transhumanism.

(It will be posthumanism if we were to discard the human body and human biology entirely. That means a capsule without a body inside by the context of capsuleership. We exist entirely in a digital form and yet still able to do things that once define what it means to be human)

Anything that does nothing to enhance the human body's ability to perform beyond its peak biological limit is not part of the transhumanistic agenda. Anything that does is. As such do not mistake all prosthetic installation as being [H+]. The point of transhumanism is not simply replacement or substitution, it's enhancement. To go beyond what biology dictates is our limit, while still retaining the human mind and the human form.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#47 - 2016-10-11 06:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
I'm not sure I have a real horse in this discussion, but how would you define changes to mental makeup under that sort of thinking, Aria? Taking your logic to it's ultimate conclusion, one could even explain the human body itself as a sort of tool subject to the mind, with parts that can be retrofitted and replaced without true change - But that leaves only our commonality in thought patterns as the ultimate definer of the human condition. If that's tweaked, or refined (which it certainly has been, but that's a tangent) would that be "H+", or at least ""≠H", in your opinion?

Edit: Whoops, looks like Mr. Egivand made a similar argument while I was posting. C'est la vie.
Aato Seskia Sihayha
Hakatain Dynasty Security
#48 - 2016-10-11 07:11:50 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
So, when they merge with each other, do the individual components still retain their spirit? Or do the spirits merge too? Or does this means that every individual and everything else are actually a conglomerate of spirits, a spirit composite, of which there is one dominant spirit that represents all the others that make up the individual? Does the spirit of the mechanical augment remain an individual, or does it join with our human spirit? Is our human spirit made out of multiple organ spirits?


Surely the same concerns apply whenever you eat or drink something?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2016-10-11 07:21:07 UTC
Aato Seskia Sihayha wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
So, when they merge with each other, do the individual components still retain their spirit? Or do the spirits merge too? Or does this means that every individual and everything else are actually a conglomerate of spirits, a spirit composite, of which there is one dominant spirit that represents all the others that make up the individual? Does the spirit of the mechanical augment remain an individual, or does it join with our human spirit? Is our human spirit made out of multiple organ spirits?


Surely the same concerns apply whenever you eat or drink something?


It does. It's something that I had being wondering for ages. If we eat something, does the spirit become part of us? Or does the food, which had undergone digestion, break into smaller spirits bound to their base materials, and the materials and the spirits attached to it becomes part of the composite while the rest gets passed out to join the environment and its individual spirits?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#50 - 2016-10-11 11:22:32 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Mr. Nauplius, if you have a mind to abolish organ cloning/replacement and any sort of genetic treatment, I'd hope you'd be comfortable living to about eighty, tops. (I'm assuming you'd do away with full body cloning as well, considering that's sort of the logical conclusion of the same thing.)


Blood Raiders have the longest average lifespan of the cluster's Empires, madam, and their technology is roughly what I would consider allowable (of technology so far invented).
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2016-10-11 11:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Nauplius wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Mr. Nauplius, if you have a mind to abolish organ cloning/replacement and any sort of genetic treatment, I'd hope you'd be comfortable living to about eighty, tops. (I'm assuming you'd do away with full body cloning as well, considering that's sort of the logical conclusion of the same thing.)


Blood Raiders have the longest average lifespan of the cluster's Empires, madam, and their technology is roughly what I would consider allowable (of technology so far invented).


Because of Blood Raider's medical technology and I am sure, gene-modding. I've heard the things their ground-stompers can do without resorting to mech-augs. Clearly there's some top grade bio-augs involved here.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#52 - 2016-10-11 15:51:47 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
You do not get it. A prosthetic that does not enhance the body's performance to be beyond the base limit is not an augment and is not part of the [H+] equation. A pacemaker is designed to fix a flaw to bring the heart's performance back to its normal levels, not over it. Earrings do not enhance the human body, it is purely cosmetic. Glass eyes do not restore sight. Again, not part of transhumanism.

A clone is a prosthetic body, yes. What is actually the enhanced part is what's in the head. The implants in our head, that enhances our speed of learning, to not only acquire the knowledge at the rapid rate, but to also comprehend, internalise and practice almost by reflex. This is transhumanism. The implants that allows us to connect to the vast information network that is the Galnet, to pull from it any information and data we could ever need with a single thought, bypassing the time it takes to work the fingers to type a keyword. This is enhancement, and therefore part of the transhumanistic agenda. And how about the neural link to the starship, to control the ship as though it were our own body, to carry our minds to faraway places at will? This is transhumanism.

(It will be posthumanism if we were to discard the human body and human biology entirely. That means a capsule without a body inside by the context of capsuleership. We exist entirely in a digital form and yet still able to do things that once define what it means to be human)

Anything that does nothing to enhance the human body's ability to perform beyond its peak biological limit is not part of the transhumanistic agenda. Anything that does is. As such do not mistake all prosthetic installation as being [H+]. The point of transhumanism is not simply replacement or substitution, it's enhancement. To go beyond what biology dictates is our limit, while still retaining the human mind and the human form.


Biological shortfall: cannot regrow leg after losing leg (like some species).

Technological solution: add stick onto stump. Now have leg. Biological limit exceeded!

Biological shortfall: skin insufficiently fancy.

Technological solution: inject ink subcutaneously to create fancy pattern. Biological limit exceeded!

In a curious "around the back" sort of way, Mr. Egivand, what we're actually having right now is a religious argument. You appear to believe there's something special about the integrity of "self" and "being human," relating to ideas of self and soul, and you're looking for definitions that will let you codify the line at which this is or is not being tampered with.

My faith teaches, instead, that there is no true "self,"-- that "self" is an illusion. We go to some lengths to try to illustrate that illusion to ourselves. I don't train with the longknife because I want to be able to cut people up efficiently; I do it to erase the distinction between will and body, and between body and tool. Mind, body, longknife: all a single unit. Ideally they should merge so fully with the flow of the world that I'm not even thinking at all about what I'm doing; I ought to just be flowing with the river, not as a leaf on the stream, but as the water itself.

It's not exactly an easy barrier to break. I've been doing this since I was eight (not my family's fault in a direct way; I got a late start. Extenuating circumstances, sort of), even if I can't remember most of that time, and I still don't think I've mastered "no mind."

(As a convenient side-effect, I'm pretty good with a knife, though.)

So-- yeah. I don't see very much difference between a tool that's easy to put down and one that's hard to put down. Both serve to enhance what a person can do. Both, if I'm using them, are an extension of my will. My body's just the default toolkit.

Moving a little deeper, though, what we're really talking about is words, and which ones we should use for what reason. I'm resistant to modifying or moving away from the word "human" because it's an psychological analogue for "us." Things that are human are, in a sense, kin. Start moving away from that, and--

Well, with respect even to, like, body-modders the word "abomination" comes up sometimes.

Frequently, even. Depending a little on where you are.

The way we talk about things reflects the way we think about things, and vice versa. If we want to make it really easy to divvy up humanity into "people more like me" and "people not so much like me" and "people not like me at all-- actually is that even a person?", then, sure, let's make it easy to talk about cybernetically or geneticall-modified people as though they had changed something fundamental.

If we don't want to justify murdering them, maybe we should use words that don't make it easy to justify pushing people away?

A lot of my Amarrian friends might disagree, but, to my eye, a baseline human, a cyberknight, a capsuleer, and a Jove, are all just people. (As would an uploaded Sleeper be-- assuming, as seems very probable, that that's what they are.)

I'm withholding judment on the Drifters until we find out what's inhabiting those bodies.
Jade Blackwind
#53 - 2016-10-11 17:14:44 UTC
Nice green wall of a killboard there. Tasty rattlesnakes and all.

As a former member who left on good terms, I can only congratulate Saede and her crew with the battles won and wish best of luck in defending Origin now and in the future.
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#54 - 2016-10-11 17:15:32 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
You do not get it. A prosthetic that does not enhance the body's performance to be beyond the base limit is not an augment and is not part of the [H+] equation. A pacemaker is designed to fix a flaw to bring the heart's performance back to its normal levels, not over it. Earrings do not enhance the human body, it is purely cosmetic. Glass eyes do not restore sight. Again, not part of transhumanism.

A clone is a prosthetic body, yes. What is actually the enhanced part is what's in the head. The implants in our head, that enhances our speed of learning, to not only acquire the knowledge at the rapid rate, but to also comprehend, internalise and practice almost by reflex. This is transhumanism. The implants that allows us to connect to the vast information network that is the Galnet, to pull from it any information and data we could ever need with a single thought, bypassing the time it takes to work the fingers to type a keyword. This is enhancement, and therefore part of the transhumanistic agenda. And how about the neural link to the starship, to control the ship as though it were our own body, to carry our minds to faraway places at will? This is transhumanism.

(It will be posthumanism if we were to discard the human body and human biology entirely. That means a capsule without a body inside by the context of capsuleership. We exist entirely in a digital form and yet still able to do things that once define what it means to be human)

Anything that does nothing to enhance the human body's ability to perform beyond its peak biological limit is not part of the transhumanistic agenda. Anything that does is. As such do not mistake all prosthetic installation as being [H+]. The point of transhumanism is not simply replacement or substitution, it's enhancement. To go beyond what biology dictates is our limit, while still retaining the human mind and the human form.


In a curious "around the back" sort of way, Mr. Egivand, what we're actually having right now is a religious argument. You appear to believe there's something special about the integrity of "self" and "being human," relating to ideas of self and soul, and you're looking for definitions that will let you codify the line at which this is or is not being tampered with.

My faith teaches, instead, that there is no true "self,"-- that "self" is an illusion. We go to some lengths to try to illustrate that illusion to ourselves. I don't train with the longknife because I want to be able to cut people up efficiently; I do it to erase the distinction between will and body, and between body and tool. Mind, body, longknife: all a single unit. Ideally they should merge so fully with the flow of the world that I'm not even thinking at all about what I'm doing; I ought to just be flowing with the river, not as a leaf on the stream, but as the water itself.

It's not exactly an easy barrier to break. I've been doing this since I was eight (not my family's fault in a direct way; I got a late start. Extenuating circumstances, sort of), even if I can't remember most of that time, and I still don't think I've mastered "no mind."

(As a convenient side-effect, I'm pretty good with a knife, though.)

So-- yeah. I don't see very much difference between a tool that's easy to put down and one that's hard to put down. Both serve to enhance what a person can do. Both, if I'm using them, are an extension of my will. My body's just the default toolkit.

Moving a little deeper, though, what we're really talking about is words, and which ones we should use for what reason. I'm resistant to modifying or moving away from the word "human" because it's an psychological analogue for "us." Things that are human are, in a sense, kin. Start moving away from that, and--

Well, with respect even to, like, body-modders the word "abomination" comes up sometimes.

Frequently, even. Depending a little on where you are.

The way we talk about things reflects the way we think about things, and vice versa. If we want to make it really easy to divvy up humanity into "people more like me" and "people not so much like me" and "people not like me at all-- actually is that even a person?", then, sure, let's make it easy to talk about cybernetically or geneticall-modified people as though they had changed something fundamental.

If we don't want to justify murdering them, maybe we should use words that don't make it easy to justify pushing people away?

A lot of my Amarrian friends might disagree, but, to my eye, a baseline human, a cyberknight, a capsuleer, and a Jove, are all just people. (As would an uploaded Sleeper be-- assuming, as seems very probable, that that's what they are.)

I'm withholding judment on the Drifters until we find out what's inhabiting those bodies.


Trans-humanism as a term isn't supposed to be separating though. In its original form it was meant to be used by those who were finding new ways to expand what the human race could do by upgrading what they saw as "Inefficient, outdated components of the human condition". It was supposed to be no more separating than the word "medical researcher". It's others looking for people to exclude and directions to send their misguided hate that began to label trans-humanists as this small caste of people who did things that they thought was improper. Those that were willing to remove some of their "default tools" forever to replace them with technologically superior or more aesthetically pleasing versions.

A tattoo cannot be a trans-human mod, a hammer cannot be a trans-human mod, because they don't require physical sacrifice to make the modification.

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#55 - 2016-10-11 17:30:06 UTC
I personally do not feel I made much of a physical sacrifice to get the hydrostatic capsule implants, and the act of direct conscious interfacing with a machine is probably the most transhuman thing a person can do.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2016-10-11 17:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Solu Terona wrote:
Trans-humanism as a term isn't supposed to be separating though. In its original form it was meant to be used by those who were finding new ways to expand what the human race could do by upgrading what they saw as "Inefficient, outdated components of the human condition". It was supposed to be no more separating than the word "medical researcher". It's others looking for people to exclude and directions to send their misguided hate that began to label trans-humanists as this small caste of people who did things that they thought was improper. Those that were willing to remove some of their "default tools" forever to replace them with technologically superior or more aesthetically pleasing versions.

A tattoo cannot be a trans-human mod, a hammer cannot be a trans-human mod, because they don't require physical sacrifice to make the modification.


What you communicate is what you communicate; what is intended is irrelevant.

(I think an old-fashioned tattoo recipient might disagree about whether there was physical sacrifice involved. One of the things a tattoo demonstrates is the ability to endure pain.)

(I also think House Ardishapur would be a little upset at being described as "transhumanists" due to their custom of sacrificing a hand and replacing it. So, probably, would a lot of Khanid cyberknights. ... Actually, Amarr seem to have been doing pretty well at the whole implant and cybernetics thing for a really, really long time without apparently feeling that they were surrendering much, if any, humanity. They're kind of experts on life-extension technology, to the point of very nearly being a gerontocracy.)
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#57 - 2016-10-11 20:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nauplius
Solu Terona wrote:


Trans-humanism as a term isn't supposed to be separating though...It was supposed to be no more separating than the word "medical researcher". It's others looking for people to exclude and directions to send their misguided hate that began to label trans-humanists as this small caste of people who did things that they thought was improper.


You do know that your own CEO performs vivisection experiments on baseliners, right?

I mean, so did I, but I'm acknowledging that I separate homo sapiens into different castes with different rights (or in the case of Minmatar, total lack of them); I'm not trying to argue that my beliefs don't place me and people like me in a separate class.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-10-11 22:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Vivisection of a live human (or the forceful termination and then vivisection of that person) is a pretty visceral and barbaric practice for such a forward-thinking project as Origin, Ms. Riordan. My corporation was willing to deploy significant assets to defend Origin because of this understanding that Origin is worth defending for what it offers humanity. There are enough places that view the individual as expendable for the good of the collective, like, ironically, the Sansha you found those people taken by, and our decision may have been affected by this knowledge of barbarous practices in Origin if we had known of this incident when we offered our assistance.

I'm not bringing this up as tears shed over 5 people who died 4 years ago, but rather about the practice as a whole. I would hope that Alexylva Paradox/Origin Colonial Authorities have ceased it.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2016-10-11 23:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Jason Galente wrote:
I'm not bringing this up as tears shed over 5 people who died 4 years ago, but rather about the practice as a whole. I would hope that Alexylva Paradox/Origin Colonial Authorities have ceased it.


I kind of think they did. The incident seems to follow Saede around like the ghost of a vivisected puppy, though.
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#60 - 2016-10-12 01:32:46 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
I'm not bringing this up as tears shed over 5 people who died 4 years ago, but rather about the practice as a whole. I would hope that Alexylva Paradox/Origin Colonial Authorities have ceased it.


I kind of think they did. The incident seems to follow Saede around like the ghost of a vivisected puppy, though.


If I had knowledge she still was, I wouldn't support Origin. My life has left me with some pretty strict and well defined moral lines I refuse to cross. Torturous procedures masquerading as medical science is one of those lines.

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.