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Intergalactic Summit

 
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[News] BREAKING: Origin Invaded!

Author
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#21 - 2016-10-10 08:07:23 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Even you must be using some thoroughly outdated haptic and proprioceptary relays if rehabilitation is taking that long.

The goal of modern prosthetics has always been to make the new limb feel as natural and comfortable as possible so as to minimize the acclimatization time needed. An objective that was achieved generations ago in Caldari lines. Just take a look at Zainou's products sometime.

I had a prosthetic knee when I was still a baseliner (altercation with an anti-materiel pulse laser) and adapting to it only took me a couple of weeks, and that was twenty years ago.


Until you realise that these neural implants are prohibitively expensive (by baseliner standards) and the surgery highly invasive.

You probably didn't feel that hit to your wallet because you were with the State at the time. The expenses are either subsidised or entirely paid for by the State mega. For a private citizen without such generous backings, unless they are very, very rich or have megacorp backings, they aren't going to be able to afford the *entire* package.

Not to mention you will not feel the hit ever because you are now capsuleer and very, very rich.

Besides, you have to question this. The augmentations will make the recipient superior in every way. If so, why then didn't the Caldari State perform these augmentations on *everyone*? It just isn't financially feasible. If they can afford to let the individual go on a six months leave to get rehabilitated, they will take the option. If this isn't an option, the recipient gets the upgraded neural implants with the rehabilitation package.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2016-10-10 08:45:56 UTC
...true. The Watch paid for everything.

Well reminded, thank you.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#23 - 2016-10-10 09:06:43 UTC
Speaking of which, I should probably augment my arms. The sort of abuse I keep heaping on them is running them ragged.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Kalaratiri
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#24 - 2016-10-10 10:08:23 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Speaking of which, I should probably augment my arms. The sort of abuse I keep heaping on them is running them ragged.


I recommend a lover

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#25 - 2016-10-10 10:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Kalaratiri wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Speaking of which, I should probably augment my arms. The sort of abuse I keep heaping on them is running them ragged.


I recommend a lover


I operate heavy equipment, delicate equipment and highly hazardous materials (toxic, corrosive, irritating...) as a hobby.

Also, married.

I will not comment on whether I caress metallic and polymeric surfaces sensuously.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ninavask
Alexylva Paradox
#26 - 2016-10-10 13:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ninavask
This seems a good place to put this considering the conversation.

We here at VaskTech, an Origin based member of the Alexylva Paradox Corporation, offers some of the finest and most affordable forms of augmentation available. With numerous offices located within Origin, and beyond as well, we offer countless opportunities to make a body operating already at peak efficiency, even better. I myself use prototype augmentation designs to enhance many of my jump clones so as to offer myself the best protection available out of pod.

For those where ISK are less of a consideration, we also have some of the most efficient and useful self-defense and utility augmentations on the open market. As well as many military grade enhancements for soldiers and non-capsuleer pilots. Our state of the art and highly secured medical suites are the envy of many International organizations, and the option for inactive-clone augmentation for our capsuleer patrons offers a convenience that few can match.

Remember when the day comes that your pod and ship can't quite help you, VaskTech can.

Dr. Ninavask Revan

Colonist

Alexylva Paradox

The views above are the opinions and beliefs of Dr. Ninavask and do in no way reflect on his employeers or associates at the time of posting.

Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#27 - 2016-10-10 13:46:16 UTC
But first, Origin has to be defended.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#28 - 2016-10-10 14:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
I'm confident we can win!

I barely know anything about the situation, though, so that confidence is pretty baseless. For all I know, they could be herding people into slave camps right now.

On a more serious note re; Transhumanism, it's worth noting that despite it being semi-popular to decry it, what we consider conservative medical technology today was probably all considered a dangerous transhumanist pipe dream in the past. Organ cloning, genetic rejuvenation therapy, basic neocom implants...

Heresy gives way to acceptance gives way to orthodoxy. The people who today are scoffed at for the pretense of calling themselves "Infomorph", might soon find themselves playing the roles of Diana and Nauplius, lambasting the people merging their brains with volcanoes or something.
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2016-10-10 14:36:48 UTC
There'll be an official comment in due course, though it's not like we can stop anyone from doing some detective work and drawing their own conclusions on how it's going...

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2016-10-10 14:53:52 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
I'm confident we can win!

I barely know anything about the situation, though, so that confidence is pretty baseless. For all I know, they could be herding people into slave camps right now.

On a more serious note re; Transhumanism, it's worth noting that despite it being semi-popular to decry it, what we consider conservative medical technology today was probably all considered a dangerous transhumanist pipe dream in the past. Organ cloning, genetic rejuvenation therapy, basic neocom implants...

Heresy gives way to acceptance gives way to orthodoxy. The people who today are scoffed at for the pretense of calling themselves "Infomorph", might soon find themselves playing the roles of Diana and Nauplius, lambasting the people merging their brains with volcanoes or something.


Speaking for myself, Ms. Ikiryo, it's not so much the tool kit that I find worrying. It's the idea that the results aren't entirely human.

That doesn't lead to good places for either side. One side concludes that inhuman beings don't deserve to be treated as humans and can be, for example, murdered freely; the other concludes that being inhuman means they don't have human duties like exercising restraint in dealing with large civilian populations.

My predecessor had a self-described habit of using FoF missiles to turn unhardened modular structures into pyrotechnic displays-- planting "seeds of fire," and watching them germinate and bloom.

I'm not very sorry that I'm not that person anymore.
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2016-10-10 15:35:31 UTC
Mmm. I always say that the point is to be a human first and trans-, post- or meta- a very distant second.

The point is to augment and enhance the human condition, not replace it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#32 - 2016-10-10 15:46:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Speaking for myself, Ms. Ikiryo, it's not so much the tool kit that I find worrying. It's the idea that the results aren't entirely human.

That doesn't lead to good places for either side. One side concludes that inhuman beings don't deserve to be treated as humans and can be, for example, murdered freely; the other concludes that being inhuman means they don't have human duties like exercising restraint in dealing with large civilian populations.

My predecessor had a self-described habit of using FoF missiles to turn unhardened modular structures into pyrotechnic displays-- planting "seeds of fire," and watching them germinate and bloom.

I'm not very sorry that I'm not that person anymore.


Hmm.

If you don't mind me saying so, Aria, it does feel like (though for understandable reasons) your image of transhumanism as an idea is pretty singularly influenced by Capsuleers, whereas I was more talking about the concept in general terms, with some regard to Saede's project. I might've said the same thing as you, at one point, but being here a while has sort of expanded by perspective.

Let me put it this way: You're talking about a scenario that arises when there are two groups with clearly defined and massive gaps in both power and life experience that are led to exist alongside each other; Essentially, a caste system of Haves and Have Nots, where there's a collapse in empathy and common understanding as a result. This is what has happened with Capsuleers and baseliners, which you are absolutely right in saying has led to some truly dreadful events and horrifically broken people.

I would posit, however, that this is at least in part an anomaly exclusive to this one instance, because - And I've seen this firsthand here out here, to an extent - in natural circumstances, it doesn't play out that way at all. In Origin (and likely some of the more liberal and wealthy areas of highsec space) you see a bunch of people flirting with transhumanity in a range of different respects, trying out all sorts of emergent god-defiance, from radical physical changes to mental communication techniques to who-knows-what. Some of these become popular and catch on, but the environment of lots of relatively little changes, most of which are optional, makes it very hard to draw a distinct line between who is human and who isn't. I think this is how tolerance generally arises in human society, and where my optimistic side thinks things might be headed in the future - Where blurred lines and mostly-small steps make it hard to identify who is part of the outgroup at all. (It further helps that the changes which are near-ubiquitous are available very easily.)

Now, the bubble of quasi-socialism that makes this sort of techno-adventurism possible here isn't exactly a neutral environment, either. But still, this leads me to believe that what's happened with us is generally only because the unnatural intervention of the Jove led to a technological leap that was 1) Huge, 2) Narrowly defined, 3) Only available to a crushingly small group of elites.

It rarely happens that way normally. So I wouldn't be sure the problems you talk about are endemic to the very idea.

Sorry for the wall of text. I got strangely fired up there.
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#33 - 2016-10-10 17:11:17 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Speaking for myself, Ms. Ikiryo, it's not so much the tool kit that I find worrying. It's the idea that the results aren't entirely human.

That doesn't lead to good places for either side. One side concludes that inhuman beings don't deserve to be treated as humans and can be, for example, murdered freely; the other concludes that being inhuman means they don't have human duties like exercising restraint in dealing with large civilian populations.

My predecessor had a self-described habit of using FoF missiles to turn unhardened modular structures into pyrotechnic displays-- planting "seeds of fire," and watching them germinate and bloom.

I'm not very sorry that I'm not that person anymore.


Hmm.

If you don't mind me saying so, Aria, it does feel like (though for understandable reasons) your image of transhumanism as an idea is pretty singularly influenced by Capsuleers, whereas I was more talking about the concept in general terms, with some regard to Saede's project. I might've said the same thing as you, at one point, but being here a while has sort of expanded by perspective.

Let me put it this way: You're talking about a scenario that arises when there are two groups with clearly defined and massive gaps in both power and life experience that are led to exist alongside each other; Essentially, a caste system of Haves and Have Nots, where there's a collapse in empathy and common understanding as a result. This is what has happened with Capsuleers and baseliners, which you are absolutely right in saying has led to some truly dreadful events and horrifically broken people.

I would posit, however, that this is at least in part an anomaly exclusive to this one instance, because - And I've seen this firsthand here out here, to an extent - in natural circumstances, it doesn't play out that way at all. In Origin (and likely some of the more liberal and wealthy areas of highsec space) you see a bunch of people flirting with transhumanity in a range of different respects, trying out all sorts of emergent god-defiance, from radical physical changes to mental communication techniques to who-knows-what. Some of these become popular and catch on, but the environment of lots of relatively little changes, most of which are optional, makes it very hard to draw a distinct line between who is human and who isn't. I think this is how tolerance generally arises in human society, and where my optimistic side thinks things might be headed in the future - Where blurred lines and mostly-small steps make it hard to identify who is part of the outgroup at all. (It further helps that the changes which are near-ubiquitous are available very easily.)

Now, the bubble of quasi-socialism that makes this sort of techno-adventurism possible here isn't exactly a neutral environment, either. But still, this leads me to believe that what's happened with us is generally only because the unnatural intervention of the Jove led to a technological leap that was 1) Huge, 2) Narrowly defined, 3) Only available to a crushingly small group of elites.

It rarely happens that way normally. So I wouldn't be sure the problems you talk about are endemic to the very idea.

Sorry for the wall of text. I got strangely fired up there.


It's also interesting to note that the four empires have allowed massive exceptions for their capsuleer populations with regards to laws and how they apply because the laws were not designed with capsuleers and their capabilities in mind, and so they've provided a work around while the law catches up.

Origin is in the situation of its laws being built from the ground up with the idea of infomorphs (of both the capsuleer and AI variety) well accounted for in its design and enforcement. I am held to the EXACT same laws as the crews of my ship, regardless of said crew's augmentation status.

Its also of note that origin has laws regarding augmentation that extends humans past what is the accepted norm. I'm not familiar with the details but suffice to say any implant that could be used for violence of a physical or digital variety is classed as a weapon and subject to the same exams, checkouts, and permits that would be required of any other weapon. With most of the civilian varieties fitted with police accessible shutoffs.

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2016-10-10 18:14:46 UTC
Solu Terona wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Hmm.

If you don't mind me saying so, Aria, it does feel like (though for understandable reasons) your image of transhumanism as an idea is pretty singularly influenced by Capsuleers, whereas I was more talking about the concept in general terms, with some regard to Saede's project. I might've said the same thing as you, at one point, but being here a while has sort of expanded by perspective.

Let me put it this way: You're talking about a scenario that arises when there are two groups with clearly defined and massive gaps in both power and life experience that are led to exist alongside each other; Essentially, a caste system of Haves and Have Nots, where there's a collapse in empathy and common understanding as a result. This is what has happened with Capsuleers and baseliners, which you are absolutely right in saying has led to some truly dreadful events and horrifically broken people.

I would posit, however, that this is at least in part an anomaly exclusive to this one instance, because - And I've seen this firsthand here out here, to an extent - in natural circumstances, it doesn't play out that way at all. In Origin (and likely some of the more liberal and wealthy areas of highsec space) you see a bunch of people flirting with transhumanity in a range of different respects, trying out all sorts of emergent god-defiance, from radical physical changes to mental communication techniques to who-knows-what. Some of these become popular and catch on, but the environment of lots of relatively little changes, most of which are optional, makes it very hard to draw a distinct line between who is human and who isn't. I think this is how tolerance generally arises in human society, and where my optimistic side thinks things might be headed in the future - Where blurred lines and mostly-small steps make it hard to identify who is part of the outgroup at all. (It further helps that the changes which are near-ubiquitous are available very easily.)

Now, the bubble of quasi-socialism that makes this sort of techno-adventurism possible here isn't exactly a neutral environment, either. But still, this leads me to believe that what's happened with us is generally only because the unnatural intervention of the Jove led to a technological leap that was 1) Huge, 2) Narrowly defined, 3) Only available to a crushingly small group of elites.

It rarely happens that way normally. So I wouldn't be sure the problems you talk about are endemic to the very idea.

Sorry for the wall of text. I got strangely fired up there.


It's also interesting to note that the four empires have allowed massive exceptions for their capsuleer populations with regards to laws and how they apply because the laws were not designed with capsuleers and their capabilities in mind, and so they've provided a work around while the law catches up.

Origin is in the situation of its laws being built from the ground up with the idea of infomorphs (of both the capsuleer and AI variety) well accounted for in its design and enforcement. I am held to the EXACT same laws as the crews of my ship, regardless of said crew's augmentation status.

Its also of note that origin has laws regarding augmentation that extends humans past what is the accepted norm. I'm not familiar with the details but suffice to say any implant that could be used for violence of a physical or digital variety is classed as a weapon and subject to the same exams, checkouts, and permits that would be required of any other weapon. With most of the civilian varieties fitted with police accessible shutoffs.


Well-- if you're just approaching "transhumanity" as humanity, then maybe we can dispense with that term?

I don't think the idea of transcending or crossing over from humanity into something else is a very useful one for either your purposes or mine.

Humans are a little tribal still. That's not a tendency that needs any extra encouragement, so, not only "people are people," but "people should always be understood to be people."

Even if they have some kind of interesting tools.
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#35 - 2016-10-10 18:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaret Victorian
Origin and its inhabitants are always an insipration for me (and this conversation right here is one of the reasons why). And though the time is a little bit troubling, I am glad I could be of assistance.

The things Stitcher and Elmund are talking about are true and well said, especially the recovery. It took me some time before I stopped breaking glasses with my left hand when I got the arm prosthesis. I was very afraid of doing harm to someonne with it at first. Funny enough, mechanical watches helped with that too - I used to buy dozens of them and sit for hours and hours disassembling and assembling them to get used to my arm and redevelop my precise movement of it. Now I usually carry around a couple of Tumi-Ishi blocks with me to play with.

The principle of "looking human" is also very interesting. Augmentations can be intimidating and people are usually very cautious around those who can squeeze one's head like a ripe watermelon.

I, myself, am particularly fascinated with Cyber Knights - these people take it very seriously. In terms of combat some of them are split into two groups of hand-to-hand combat and modern-day combat. As a person who's likely to be on Guristas hit list, this is very useful for my self-defence.
Ninavask
Alexylva Paradox
#36 - 2016-10-10 20:43:16 UTC
Jaret Victorian wrote:
Origin and its inhabitants are always an insipration for me (and this conversation right here is one of the reasons why). And though the time is a little bit troubling, I am glad I could be of assistance.

The things Stitcher and Elmund are talking about are true and well said, especially the recovery. It took me some time before I stopped breaking glasses with my left hand when I got the arm prosthesis. I was very afraid of doing harm to someonne with it at first. Funny enough, mechanical watches helped with that too - I used to buy dozens of them and sit for hours and hours disassembling and assembling them to get used to my arm and redevelop my precise movement of it. Now I usually carry around a couple of Tumi-Ishi blocks with me to play with.

The principle of "looking human" is also very interesting. Augmentations can be intimidating and people are usually very cautious around those who can squeeze one's head like a ripe watermelon.

I, myself, am particularly fascinated with Cyber Knights - these people take it very seriously. In terms of combat some of them are split into two groups of hand-to-hand combat and modern-day combat. As a person who's likely to be on Guristas hit list, this is very useful for my self-defence.


Rehabilitation is always a chore when using augments. When I first began augmenting my clones it took some time to get used to the increased strength and sensory overloads. Now when I switch to my "natural" primary clone I feel deaf blind and dumb.

I had a similar problem with my limb augments. Sometimes I would try and walk hurriedly and throw myself to the ground due to incorrect acceleration of the joints. My biggest problem for a while was terminals. My fingers had a habit of smashing keys until I switched to a multi-purpose data jack in the finger tips to allow neural typing.

You found old fashioned machine clocks and I used engineering and wiring. It was months before I could confidently return to practicing medicine with my own hands. Now I refuse to even perform the most minor of operations with my "natural" hands.

It is all about becoming used to something that will improve your ability to function. Maybe not immediately, it may take months for you to become accustomed to it. But once you are anything else will make you feel less then yourself.

Dr. Ninavask Revan

Colonist

Alexylva Paradox

The views above are the opinions and beliefs of Dr. Ninavask and do in no way reflect on his employeers or associates at the time of posting.

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#37 - 2016-10-10 20:46:50 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:


That doesn't lead to good places for either side. One side concludes that inhuman beings don't deserve to be treated as humans and can be, for example, murdered freely; the other concludes that being inhuman means they don't have human duties like exercising restraint in dealing with large civilian populations.

My predecessor had a self-described habit of using FoF missiles to turn unhardened modular structures into pyrotechnic displays-- planting "seeds of fire," and watching them germinate and bloom.

I'm not very sorry that I'm not that person anymore.


True. Upon further reflection on this subject, I would add the following —

  • Transhumanism replaces the God-ordained hierarchies of Emperor > Holder > Commoner > Slave and Chosen > Non-Chosen Non-Minmatar > Minmatar with a deviant hierarchy: Transhumans > baseliners, a hierarchy that finds no support in the Scriptures.
  • Transhumanism diverts attention from the chief aim of man: to glorify God and be with him forever in Paradise. It instead focuses obsessively on the present, material world, desperately trying to prolong one's life here and one's enjoyment of it. (In fairness, both the Amarr and the Sani Sabik have been pioneers in this heretical direction as well — there seems to be a tendency in the Amarr-derived religions for the interest in the glorious world to come to be perverted into an interest in life extension and augmentation).
  • For people who believe in religions like that of Ms. Jenneth here, could there be any more egregious example of attachment to a world of maya and illusion than transhumanism?


Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

On a more serious note re; Transhumanism, it's worth noting that despite it being semi-popular to decry it, what we consider conservative medical technology today was probably all considered a dangerous transhumanist pipe dream in the past. Organ cloning, genetic rejuvenation therapy, basic neocom implants...

Some of these things should be abolished, too. And good to see you back, Lady Ikiryo!
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#38 - 2016-10-10 22:59:25 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

But, I shouldn't expect anything Diana Kim says to map with the facts. I don't think there's a human augmentation program in the world that could fix your delusions.

That's because you are nothing but a pro-gallentean propagandist and liar. Please vacate the media if you fail to contribute with something except your pro-gallentean trolling, hnolku tyuui.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#39 - 2016-10-11 01:56:58 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Some of these things should be abolished, too. And good to see you back, Lady Ikiryo!


Mr. Nauplius, if you have a mind to abolish organ cloning/replacement and any sort of genetic treatment, I'd hope you'd be comfortable living to about eighty, tops. (I'm assuming you'd do away with full body cloning as well, considering that's sort of the logical conclusion of the same thing.)

Anyway, I wanted to respond to this:

Nauplius wrote:
For people who believe in religions like that of Ms. Jenneth here, could there be any more egregious example of attachment to a world of maya and illusion than transhumanism?


As someone versed in the roughly the same religion as miss Jenneth, I'm not really sure where you're going with this. While it's true the Faith discourages frivolity and in most sects advocates for acceptance of the world rather than going against the current, the reasoning behind this is to free oneself of material desires and distraction - It's not an end in of itself. Technology, as well as potentially being a anchor, can also be a liberator, freeing us from base desires and needs that distract us from seeking understanding of the world and of ourselves.

...And the need to die at an arbitrary time might very well be The Big One in terms of needs.

Don't misinterpret viewing the world as illusory in nature as not wanting to remain part of it. In my opinion, if that was the viewpoint of the teachings, they would be less about introspection and how to best live, and more about where best to obtain a canister of helium and some thick plastic bags.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#40 - 2016-10-11 02:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Solu Terona wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Hmm.

If you don't mind me saying so, Aria, it does feel like (though for understandable reasons) your image of transhumanism as an idea is pretty singularly influenced by Capsuleers, whereas I was more talking about the concept in general terms, with some regard to Saede's project. I might've said the same thing as you, at one point, but being here a while has sort of expanded by perspective.

Let me put it this way: You're talking about a scenario that arises when there are two groups with clearly defined and massive gaps in both power and life experience that are led to exist alongside each other; Essentially, a caste system of Haves and Have Nots, where there's a collapse in empathy and common understanding as a result. This is what has happened with Capsuleers and baseliners, which you are absolutely right in saying has led to some truly dreadful events and horrifically broken people.

I would posit, however, that this is at least in part an anomaly exclusive to this one instance, because - And I've seen this firsthand here out here, to an extent - in natural circumstances, it doesn't play out that way at all. In Origin (and likely some of the more liberal and wealthy areas of highsec space) you see a bunch of people flirting with transhumanity in a range of different respects, trying out all sorts of emergent god-defiance, from radical physical changes to mental communication techniques to who-knows-what. Some of these become popular and catch on, but the environment of lots of relatively little changes, most of which are optional, makes it very hard to draw a distinct line between who is human and who isn't. I think this is how tolerance generally arises in human society, and where my optimistic side thinks things might be headed in the future - Where blurred lines and mostly-small steps make it hard to identify who is part of the outgroup at all. (It further helps that the changes which are near-ubiquitous are available very easily.)

Now, the bubble of quasi-socialism that makes this sort of techno-adventurism possible here isn't exactly a neutral environment, either. But still, this leads me to believe that what's happened with us is generally only because the unnatural intervention of the Jove led to a technological leap that was 1) Huge, 2) Narrowly defined, 3) Only available to a crushingly small group of elites.

It rarely happens that way normally. So I wouldn't be sure the problems you talk about are endemic to the very idea.

Sorry for the wall of text. I got strangely fired up there.


It's also interesting to note that the four empires have allowed massive exceptions for their capsuleer populations with regards to laws and how they apply because the laws were not designed with capsuleers and their capabilities in mind, and so they've provided a work around while the law catches up.

Origin is in the situation of its laws being built from the ground up with the idea of infomorphs (of both the capsuleer and AI variety) well accounted for in its design and enforcement. I am held to the EXACT same laws as the crews of my ship, regardless of said crew's augmentation status.

Its also of note that origin has laws regarding augmentation that extends humans past what is the accepted norm. I'm not familiar with the details but suffice to say any implant that could be used for violence of a physical or digital variety is classed as a weapon and subject to the same exams, checkouts, and permits that would be required of any other weapon. With most of the civilian varieties fitted with police accessible shutoffs.


Well-- if you're just approaching "transhumanity" as humanity, then maybe we can dispense with that term?

I don't think the idea of transcending or crossing over from humanity into something else is a very useful one for either your purposes or mine.

Humans are a little tribal still. That's not a tendency that needs any extra encouragement, so, not only "people are people," but "people should always be understood to be people."

Even if they have some kind of interesting tools.


'Transhumanity' is a useful term because it refers to humans who have, by means of technology or eugenics or etc, transcended the human limits. Inside, they still have the human spirit, but, well, they had become something more than human.

Think about it in capsuleer terms. By all appearance, origins, thought, we are humans. However, we aren't your regular humans. Not anymore. We had become different in quite a number of ways, including the ability to cheat death on a regular basis. This 'transcending' over the limit of death is what makes us transhumans. We are, by all accounts, especially by our genetic coding, humans. It's just, well...we are also different now.

There's a good reason why the universal symbol for transhumanism is [H+].

Though there is something that has bothered me for a long while. It is understood in my culture that there are spirits in all things, from the highest mountain to the most microscopic of space dust. As such, the prosthetics too have spirits, as do every component in every machine really.

So, when they merge with each other, do the individual components still retain their spirit? Or do the spirits merge too? Or does this means that every individual and everything else are actually a conglomerate of spirits, a spirit composite, of which there is one dominant spirit that represents all the others that make up the individual? Does the spirit of the mechanical augment remain an individual, or does it join with our human spirit? Is our human spirit made out of multiple organ spirits?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.