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Random war decs on new player corps?

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Author
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#21 - 2016-10-09 08:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
By in large this is not a 'bad' ideal, a kinda 2 tier Corp system;

Tier 1 - limited scope corporation, no ability to launch anything for the Corp.
- limit size of Corp to amount of members allowed.
- no ability to war Dec.
- cannot create alliances.


Tier 2 - full privileges, no restrictions.

Anyway, I know most won't want a system like this because it is still possible for abuse by a Corp or Corp members who get out of line with others folks then are protected by a magic shield, I'm a carebear and the problems would only compound by doing this because people will find a way to abuse it.

Best thing I would suggest is to design your Corp around being able to drop out in the event of blanket war decs and keep Corp going by having a station alt who does all the admin and building work, good luck.
Professor Agony
Galactic Walmart
#22 - 2016-10-09 08:47:49 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Why are you taking on newbros if you can't keep them safe, or ot the least facilitate them doing so themselves?

Trust me, I'm doing all I can to make sure they are as informed and aware as possible during this war. Not all of them are willing to fight, but they can stay alive if they keep their wits about them and play smart. This post was a call for conversation about how these wardecs affect fresh players rather than a way to weasel my way out of dealing with war.
Professor Agony
Galactic Walmart
#23 - 2016-10-09 08:50:13 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
By in large this is not a 'bad' ideal, a kinda 2 tier Corp system;

Tier 1 - limited scope corporation, no ability to launch anything for the Corp.
- limit size of Corp to amount of members allowed.
- no ability to war Dec.
- cannot create alliances.


Tier 2 - full privileges, no restrictions.

Anyway, I know most won't want a system like this because it is still possible for abuse by a Corp or Corp members who get out of line with others folks then are protected by a magic shield, I'm a carebear and the problems would only compound by doing this because people will find a way to abuse it.

Best thing I would suggest is to design your Corp around being able to drop out in the event of blanket war decs and keep Corp going by having a station alt who does all the admin and building work, good luck.

I'm realizing now that my suggestion has many holes in it, and any change could be problematic if subject to abuse. I do like your tier system though, if it could work. And would it? I'm in no position to say.
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#24 - 2016-10-09 08:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Avaelica Kuershin
Drago Shouna wrote:



Just found this on the front page..


WHAT IS EVE ONLINE

Player-created empires, player-driven markets, and endless ways to embark on your personal sci-fi adventure.Conspire with thousands of others to bring the galaxy to its knees, or go it alone and carve your own niche in the massive EVE universe. Harvest, mine, manufacture or play the market. Travel whatever path you choose in the ultimate universe of boundless opportunity. The choice is yours in EVE Online.


Stop with the spin that this is a pvp game, it clearly isn't only that. Oh and don't come with the crap that even mining is pvp, I'm talking about a traditional definition, not the spin most of you fall for oh so easily.


You chose to accentuate one half of the equation; I've highlighted the clear warning.

Whenever I've considered turning my one-person corp into something bigger, the thought of the responsibilities puts me off...
BearUgh...PirateAttention
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#25 - 2016-10-09 08:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Professor Agony wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Why are you taking on newbros if you can't keep them safe, or ot the least facilitate them doing so themselves?

Trust me, I'm doing all I can to make sure they are as informed and aware as possible during this war. Not all of them are willing to fight, but they can stay alive if they keep their wits about them and play smart. This post was a call for conversation about how these wardecs affect fresh players rather than a way to weasel my way out of dealing with war.

Believe it or not that conversation is actually happening.
Regardless of that though,
How this effects those newbros is your responsibility,
you are recruiting them, it's on you to utilize their manpower.
If all you're doing is telling them to run and hide then frankly you're in no position to complain about their safety.
There's been many a hilarious case where a bunch of newbros smacked the mercs around.
You have 21 members, 21 of anything isn't something you can ignore, most of our fleets are a quarter that size.

So if you're going to be Prey, don't bemoan the wolves for hunting you
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#26 - 2016-10-09 09:09:54 UTC
According to this killboard most losses seem to have occured in Low-Sec (Tama), and even Null-Sec and Wormholes, mostly your own, btw, and even moreso if that other star on the killboard, Brand Itonula, is your Alt (he joined your Corp 17 minutes after its formation, make of that what you will).

Really, m8, you and at least some other guys from your Corp (assuming they are not ALL Alts of yours) apparently move around freely in Low and Null space where you can be (and are being) shot and killed but complain about Hi-Sec wardecs?
Either properly teach your Newbie Corpmembers about EvE and its dangers or go away.
Please go away anyway.

Je suis Paris // Köln // Brüssel // Orlando // Nice // Würzburg, München, Ansbach // Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray

Je suis Berlin // Fort Lauderdale // London // St. Petersburg // Stockholm

Je suis [?]

Professor Agony
Galactic Walmart
#27 - 2016-10-09 09:18:04 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Professor Agony wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Why are you taking on newbros if you can't keep them safe, or ot the least facilitate them doing so themselves?

Trust me, I'm doing all I can to make sure they are as informed and aware as possible during this war. Not all of them are willing to fight, but they can stay alive if they keep their wits about them and play smart. This post was a call for conversation about how these wardecs affect fresh players rather than a way to weasel my way out of dealing with war.

Believe it or not that conversation is actually happening.
Regardless of that though,
How this effects those newbros is your responsibility,
you are recruiting them, it's on you to utilize their manpower.
If all you're doing is telling them to run and hide then frankly you're in no position to complain about their safety.
There's been many a hilarious case where a bunch of newbros smacked the mercs around.
You have 21 members, 21 of anything isn't something you can ignore, most of our fleets are a quarter that size.

So if you're going to be Prey, don't bemoan the wolves for hunting you

You're right, although the new guys in industry can't do too much to help at the moment. The game started them with basic industry skills and they haven't even thought to train combat yet. One thing this has made me notice is that I need to at the very least include a new disclaimer on our ads so they know this is a very real scenario they can find themselves in while in our corp. I can rally all our fighters together and quite possibly have an impact, but it won't protect someone from getting gatecamped in Sobaseki on their way back from mining when we aren't around (which is why I teach those individuals the tactics they need to avoid conflict and increase chance of survival). I guess this is something I need to accept as a growing pain in the corp. Once we grow a bit more it'll become easier to combat these problems as they arise.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#28 - 2016-10-09 10:04:48 UTC
Professor Agony wrote:
One thing this has made me notice is that I need to at the very least include a new disclaimer on our ads so they know this is a very real scenario they can find themselves in while in our corp.

This is an inherent part of being in a corp, it's a deficiency on CCPs part that this isn't clearly and frequently communicated.

There's also a problem in that the war declaration system work extremely poorly at small scales, but very well at larger scales. As a result you'll find that most of the time the people who are declaring war on you will be pretty numerous and much better equipped than you which is going to make fighting back pretty hard. Oddly the opposite used to be true in the past and people used to routinely post threads complaining that it was unfair for a 5 man wardec corp to declare on their 250 man alliance because [REASONS].
Professor Agony
Galactic Walmart
#29 - 2016-10-09 10:22:54 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Professor Agony wrote:
One thing this has made me notice is that I need to at the very least include a new disclaimer on our ads so they know this is a very real scenario they can find themselves in while in our corp.

This is an inherent part of being in a corp, it's a deficiency on CCPs part that this isn't clearly and frequently communicated.

There's also a problem in that the war declaration system work extremely poorly at small scales, but very well at larger scales. As a result you'll find that most of the time the people who are declaring war on you will be pretty numerous and much better equipped than you which is going to make fighting back pretty hard. Oddly the opposite used to be true in the past and people used to routinely post threads complaining that it was unfair for a 5 man wardec corp to declare on their 250 man alliance because [REASONS].

I'll do my best to communicate this to the new guys coming in. I wasn't really prepared for this situation, and I'm sure that is painfully obvious at this point, but now I feel more confident about it.
And on a semi-related note, you've sparked my curiosity. What happens when small groups war dec large hauler corps in order to get free hauler kills in high sec? How do those situations play out? I can imagine that'd be one of the scenarios were the large group complains.
risora
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2016-10-09 11:37:52 UTC
problem is there no conquer mechanic . if a experianced alliance war declared and won and then had that corp assimulated into there alliance they would be abit slower in declaring if the prospect of winning was having to protect 300 carebears or new bros afterwards lol
Professor Agony
Galactic Walmart
#31 - 2016-10-09 11:43:47 UTC
risora wrote:
problem is there no conquer mechanic . if a experianced alliance war declared and won and then had that corp assimulated into there alliance they would be abit slower in declaring if the prospect of winning was having to protect 300 carebears or new bros afterwards lol

That would be very interesting. I couldn't even begin to imagine the backlash that would get, but interesting nonetheless.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#32 - 2016-10-09 11:45:55 UTC
There's really not such a thing as a" large hauler corp". The corps that run dedicated hauling services aren't actually that big and their loss rates are near zero.

In any scenario it doesn't make sense for an defender to complain that the aggressor is smaller than them, the alternative is that the group they're at war being the same size or larger than they are, in which case the situation would be much worse because they'd encounter the enemy more frequently and in greater numbers.

I think those people were under the mistaken impression that if small groups didn't declare war on them nobody would declare war on them. What actually happened when wars were changed in ways that made them less viable for small groups is the members of those groups formed much, much larger groups to share the increased financial burden and mitigate the new risks involved.

Anyway, what happens when a small group of people declares war on a larger one is entirely dependent on the preparedness and skill levels of both groups. It's entirely typical for a highsec industrialist corp to not have ever given any consideration as to what they're going to do when someone declares war on them, regardless of the size of the attacker. Obviously when that's the case they're going to get plowed hard because the members will either react at an individual level, which will typically result in them hiding because nobody wants to fight a war by themselves, or not reacting at all, in which case they get blown up while mining or whatever.

In a case where the industrialist group actually has given consideration to their own defense and has either mercenaries lined up, has their own, effective, defense plan, or intends to use both then being much larger than the attacker they'd be able to inflict some horribly embarrassing losses on the attacker. In times long passed that would result in the attacker issuing a retraction of the war declaration, ending the war, but that functionality has been removed.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#33 - 2016-10-09 11:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Professor Agony wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Professor Agony wrote:
One thing this has made me notice is that I need to at the very least include a new disclaimer on our ads so they know this is a very real scenario they can find themselves in while in our corp.

This is an inherent part of being in a corp, it's a deficiency on CCPs part that this isn't clearly and frequently communicated.

There's also a problem in that the war declaration system work extremely poorly at small scales, but very well at larger scales. As a result you'll find that most of the time the people who are declaring war on you will be pretty numerous and much better equipped than you which is going to make fighting back pretty hard. Oddly the opposite used to be true in the past and people used to routinely post threads complaining that it was unfair for a 5 man wardec corp to declare on their 250 man alliance because [REASONS].

I'll do my best to communicate this to the new guys coming in. I wasn't really prepared for this situation, and I'm sure that is painfully obvious at this point, but now I feel more confident about it.

I totally agree with what Vimsy wrote about scale. It's less fun now for smaller hunter groups than it used to be and the current mechanics and associated mechanics favour large groups that blanket declare wars. They'll be larger and better prepared than most of the highsec Corps they declare war on, so if you take a fight to them, do so only because it will be fun to you, realising that you'll be delivering to them what they want, which doesn't encourage them to end the war.

Easiest is to analyse their killboard and then avoid all the places they are active. For example, for Marmites last 5000 kills, they breakdown by Region as:

Genesis:65
Kor-Azor:2
Verge Vendor:240
Derelik:2
Heimatar:81
Tash-Murkon:43
The Forge:536
Molden Heath:5
Devoid:1
Domain:40
Placid:22
Metropolis:387
Sinq Laison:181
The Citadel:2327
Kador:6
Essence:238
Lonetrek:133
Khanid:656
Everyshore:35

That leaves the following regions with highsec systems that Marmites haven't been active in at all in that set:

Aridia
Black Rise
Solitude
The Bleak Lands

They are obviously very active in The Citadel, Khanid and The Forge, but not so much in other regions.

Would be relatively easy to move your guys either to one of the last 4 regions (with no Marmite activity) or one of the regions with very low activity and then play relatively normally for the duration of the war.

Quote:
And on a semi-related note, you've sparked my curiosity. What happens when small groups war dec large hauler corps in order to get free hauler kills in high sec? How do those situations play out? I can imagine that'd be one of the scenarios were the large group complains.

Most players shift their hauling characters to an NPC Corp during wars and/or leave them in NPC Corps permanently. NPC Corps can't be wardecced, so the hauling characters can carry on as normal.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#34 - 2016-10-09 12:03:26 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
They'll be larger and better prepared than most of the highsec Corps they declare war on, so if you take a fight to them, do so only because it will be fun to you, realising that you'll be delivering to them what they want, which doesn't encourage them to end the war.


This really depends on the way you fight and how effective you're able to be. If what you're doing consists of throwing newbies at them and giving them "fights" in which they achieve kills with no or negligible losses then it's true.

The thing to do is inflict punishment on isolated individuals and getting away before they can retaliate significantly while avoiding larger scale engagements where they can employ their superior assets. Like I said before this worked much better when aggressors could actually retract wars and when highsec PVP was less hub-camping oriented but it's still an effective way of deterring aggressors from messing with you in the future while also providing interesting content for your own corp.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#35 - 2016-10-09 12:10:02 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
They'll be larger and better prepared than most of the highsec Corps they declare war on, so if you take a fight to them, do so only because it will be fun to you, realising that you'll be delivering to them what they want, which doesn't encourage them to end the war.


This really depends on the way you fight and how effective you're able to be. If what you're doing consists of throwing newbies at them and giving them "fights" in which they achieve kills with no or negligible losses then it's true.

The thing to do is inflict punishment on isolated individuals and getting away before they can retaliate significantly while avoiding larger scale engagements where they can employ their superior assets. Like I said before this worked much better when aggressors could actually retract wars and when highsec PVP was less hub-camping oriented but it's still an effective way of deterring aggressors from messing with you in the future while also providing interesting content for your own corp.

As usual, I agree with you completely.

I guess I kind of silently implied that most highsec Corps aren't prepared/able to inflict damage on isolated members of their attackers and/or aren't able to set a good trap to escalate something larger. If Corps can, then that's even better.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#36 - 2016-10-09 13:28:46 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
They'll be larger and better prepared than most of the highsec Corps they declare war on, so if you take a fight to them, do so only because it will be fun to you, realising that you'll be delivering to them what they want, which doesn't encourage them to end the war.


This really depends on the way you fight and how effective you're able to be. If what you're doing consists of throwing newbies at them and giving them "fights" in which they achieve kills with no or negligible losses then it's true.

The thing to do is inflict punishment on isolated individuals and getting away before they can retaliate significantly while avoiding larger scale engagements where they can employ their superior assets. Like I said before this worked much better when aggressors could actually retract wars and when highsec PVP was less hub-camping oriented but it's still an effective way of deterring aggressors from messing with you in the future while also providing interesting content for your own corp.

As usual, I agree with you completely.

I guess I kind of silently implied that most highsec Corps aren't prepared/able to inflict damage on isolated members of their attackers and/or aren't able to set a good trap to escalate something larger. If Corps can, then that's even better.

As stated, 21 of anything is going to mess you up pretty badly if they catch you alone
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#37 - 2016-10-09 14:19:21 UTC
Marmite are mercs, so it's also possible someone paid them to dec you, instead of them doing it just for more targets. Do your miners find themselves competing with another corp for rocks/ice?
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#38 - 2016-10-09 14:52:51 UTC
Quote:
17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.



CCP Falcon has outlined his thoughts on EVE and touched on this issue Here. I would also point out that PVP can not be avoided in eve. In Fact if you review the EVE FAQ its listed at 7.2 "CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

As this issue has been discussed in depth before, I will close this thread.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

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