These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Faction weapons. Time to make it usefull.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#1 - 2016-10-03 18:13:19 UTC
Hi.
I've got True Sansha quad mega pulse laser BPC.
I must to bring in T2 version of this module and a lot of specific NPC capital loot. Cool, but for what reason?
EFT shows me that this faction turret will have lesser DPS then T2 original turret.
And CCP, may i ask, for what reason i must to build this one?
Seriously, what the hell is going on?
All faction modules are better then t2 versions in general.
But weapon modules are different...
Yes, some of them have better fitting options, better capasitor use and nothing more....
Why?

My opinion that weapons must be the same as other modules.

I suggest that specialisation skiils must give bonus to the factional weapons with all range of ammo - T1, faction/pirate, T2. If you do not have proper skills you will use that module, but without additional bonus and without T2 ammo.
All sizes.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#2 - 2016-10-03 18:17:07 UTC
Not the first time I've seen the idea of giving Faction weapons the ability to use T2 ammunitions, still an idea i would be willing to support. But as of this moment faction weaponry exists mostly to maximize T1 ammo DPS for people who haven't trained T2 yet. T2 large guns take a long time to train into so many people choose to use faction until they have T2 then sell them and move to T2.

Others also use them because their fits may be too tight for T2 weapons period and so choose to maximize their DPS using those instead of Meta 4

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-10-03 18:24:56 UTC
I think it was mentioned somewhere that faction weapons will be able to use t2 ammo. Probably in this year.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Merchant Rova
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-10-03 18:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Merchant Rova
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
I think it was mentioned somewhere that faction weapons will be able to use t2 ammo. Probably in this year.

I'm pretty sure its being rolled out for capital guns sometime soon

Edit: Already done.

RIP Merchant Rova's cheekbones, YC118-YC119. Forever in our hearts.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2016-10-03 18:45:05 UTC
Merchant Rova wrote:

I'm pretty sure its being rolled out for capital guns sometime soon

It's already on TQ and has been for quite a while.
So yes if they did this for all the faction guns (& removed the tag requirements for them in the LP store so they aren't an endless grind item to get a full set.....) it would make them more use.
Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2016-10-03 18:55:38 UTC
This is intentional, faction weapons are meant to be worse than T2 when all skills are taken into account because T2 get a bonus from the T2 gun specific skill while Faction don't. Faction guns are still better, T2 just has a T2 specific skill in the case of guns that boosts their performance.

Look at the guns with just base stats and you'll see that Faction are generally much better for fittings *and damage* than T2 and Meta guns. The reason no one uses them is because gun skills are generally a priority on combat characters and T2 end up being slightly better for overall damage as well as having access to T2 ammo types.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#7 - 2016-10-03 20:02:41 UTC
Faction advantages for guns:
(Usually) easier on the cap
Less CPU required
No T2 skills required

T2 advantages:
Cost
Damage output <- the point of the gun

Faction advantages for most other stuff other stuff:
Fit space
Performance
Lower drawbacks

T2 advantages for other stuff:
Cost

A signature :o
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#8 - 2016-10-04 17:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: PavlikX
Yes, it is.
And my main idea - allow specialization skills bring their "dps" bonus to the faction weapons.
But not be required to use them.

PS i guess that everyone will agree that faction weapons are very rare in use. I guess that it is wrong, and specialization skill bonus will bring them to common use. In PvE and PvP both
Cade Windstalker
#9 - 2016-10-04 17:34:41 UTC
PavlikX wrote:
Yes, it is.
And my main idea - allow specialization skills bring their "dps" bonus to the faction weapons.
But not be required to use them.


No, bad idea. Faction guns should never be strictly better than T2, which is what you're proposing. That's just power creep and creates a situation where you can, more than any other module, pay for a big boost in your ship's performance.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#10 - 2016-10-04 17:41:26 UTC
You are wrong in one aspect - those weapons will have high cost.
This aspect will restrict their use at any corner of the galaxy
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2016-10-04 20:32:20 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

No, bad idea. Faction guns should never be strictly better than T2, which is what you're proposing. That's just power creep and creates a situation where you can, more than any other module, pay for a big boost in your ship's performance.

Except for you know, Cap guns where they are (assuming you have T2 skills).
And pretty much every other module where Faction is > T2.
Oh, and on CCP's meta scale where Faction > T2.

With T1 skills they are worse than T2, with T2 skills they are better. But there should not be an entire class of weapons obsoleted simply because of T2. Not when they cost dramatic amounts more.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#12 - 2016-10-04 21:31:48 UTC
just let them load t2 on the subcap ones and nothing needs to change

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#13 - 2016-10-04 23:58:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Not when they cost dramatic amounts more.



That would be the problem with faction in general. Isk per LP rates mixed with the hard costs of tags to get most of this stuff. Its giving a base price that is too high.

For the good faction gear actually better we even see this is as exploration burst the pirate/complex price bubble. Except for areas of non-competition (olde faithful damage mods like RF gyro, FN mag stab, etc) we see pirate priced to sell these days.

Weapons catch the brunt of this. I have theory crafted some on paper amazing builds with faction guns. The grid saving being dismissed...some need to relook at the bene being blown off there. How nice the grids clear up...actually amazing imo. Area I best saw this was with faction rails. Some funky ideas on t2....ACR and fitting mods needed. Faction rails....all that goes away.


Issue for not implementing: that full rack of 425 faction rails is pricey as hell. And if requirements do not change for getting from the LP store that won't change me not buying. even in my lowly existence as a carebear at this time. Carebear who does some odd crap to spice it up and will open the wallet up at times. Open up the wallet this much for faction though...hell no lol.

Lack of t2 not why I am not buying these. When I gave rail kronos a go I rarely used t2. Vanilla ammo at bastion enhance optimals....stuff dies quite nice. TBH, rare is the reason I'd see any need for it.

Nor offensive stats. PVE a fair bit on missile chuckers and now gurista drone death boats. I have the option for CN launchers with CN ammo that can work out better. It be the price that sucks here. I get loose with the isk per LP rates I can go well my CN ammo is "free" (just saying for arguments sake, not trying to bait the its not free people). Those 5+ of CN shiny goodness is priced too damned high still.

Make faction Uber with current LP and tag needs they'd still be neglected due to price. have them run t2, same thing.

Tl;DR to fix faction there needs to be a massive look over and fixing of lp gear requirements. For most items its archaic and outdated. Drop the prices needed by lp traders, they don't get greedy and price gouge...increased sales may result.

Not disagreeable to faction running t2 ammo though. TBH I'd support it. Best way to prove or disprove my theory that these would rot all the same in the market if no LP/tag requirement changes.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#14 - 2016-10-08 16:09:58 UTC
yeah, it was stated they were going to let faction and officer weapons use t2 crystals.
cant wait for a set of brokara megapulse on my paladin with scorch.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2016-10-09 04:51:15 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Not the first time I've seen the idea of giving Faction weapons the ability to use T2 ammunitions, still an idea i would be willing to support. But as of this moment faction weaponry exists mostly to maximize T1 ammo DPS for people who haven't trained T2 yet. T2 large guns take a long time to train into so many people choose to use faction until they have T2 then sell them and move to T2.

Others also use them because their fits may be too tight for T2 weapons period and so choose to maximize their DPS using those instead of Meta 4



Which is quite stupid when faction costs a buttload more and is only a stepping stone into the far cheaper, more damaging T2 stuff.

How is demand so high when the product is so garbage? Boggles me.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
#16 - 2016-10-11 14:37:20 UTC
Weapon systems are one of the last sets of modules that havent been tiericided, a lot of ppl mentioned already that T2 ammo is coming. Probably coming with some other tweaks when the whole group gets tiericided.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#17 - 2016-10-11 19:39:04 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:

Which is quite stupid when faction costs a buttload more and is only a stepping stone into the far cheaper, more damaging T2 stuff.

How is demand so high when the product is so garbage? Boggles me.

It's not. The price is so high because of the tags in the LP stores which are used for a great many other items also, some of which are in high demand.
And because of rarity. It's currently a collectors bling item, to show off wealth. Not to actually use.
Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2016-10-11 22:08:31 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

No, bad idea. Faction guns should never be strictly better than T2, which is what you're proposing. That's just power creep and creates a situation where you can, more than any other module, pay for a big boost in your ship's performance.

Except for you know, Cap guns where they are (assuming you have T2 skills).
And pretty much every other module where Faction is > T2.
Oh, and on CCP's meta scale where Faction > T2.

With T1 skills they are worse than T2, with T2 skills they are better. But there should not be an entire class of weapons obsoleted simply because of T2. Not when they cost dramatic amounts more.


Check out Light Missile Launchers which were actually done as part of that original tiericide post you're referencing.

A Faction LML *barely* edges out a T2 one at All 5s, but can't use T2 ammo. That gives us a pretty good idea of where CCP are probably heading with other gun tiericides. Faction may end up very slightly better than T2, but probably not enough to actually use it unless your T2 ammo is worthless and that's rarely the case these days for the kind of high performance fits that care about a ~3% change in overall DPS between Faction and T2 with the same missiles.

If CCP does something like that, fine, it's a tiny bonus and doesn't really justify the cost.
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#19 - 2016-10-12 19:42:30 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

A Faction LML *barely* edges out a T2 one at All 5s, but can't use T2 ammo. That gives us a pretty good idea of where CCP are probably heading with other gun tiericides. Faction may end up very slightly better than T2, but probably not enough to actually use it unless your T2 ammo is worthless and that's rarely the case these days for the kind of high performance fits that care about a ~3% change in overall DPS between Faction and T2 with the same missiles.

If CCP does something like that, fine, it's a tiny bonus and doesn't really justify the cost.


People use faction tank/utility modules over T2 despite the price, even though they are only marginally better in performance or for CPU/PG reasons, but almost no one uses faction weapons. Faction ammo works in T1 in most cases (maybe all, but I'm sure there's an exception), so I hope they make T2 ammo work in faction weapons, if for no other reason that to create more of a demand for the weapons. The only reason I'd use faction ammo over T2 ammo is for tracking reasons, so maybe that hurts the ammo market a bit, but plenty of people will still by faction ammo for T1/Meta weapons.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#20 - 2016-10-12 21:10:05 UTC
Capital faction weapons can use T2 Ammo; the True Sansha Quad Mega Pulse Laser has reduced CPU compared to T2, improved weapon accuracy score (tracking) and improved damage modifier so it should offer higher dps with the same ammo and skills. Note that the skills to use it are substantially lower - Capital Energy Turret 1 vs level 5 for T2. May account for the DPS difference since the skill grants 5% damage bonus per level.

Likewise, capital meta modules are now player manufactured using "named components".

This functionality will be coming to subcap modules at some point in the future.
12Next page