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Dev blog: Clone States - Post CSM Summit Roundup

First post
Author
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2016-10-08 05:51:28 UTC
I am curious what the 'line' will be for too many ganks and push for the locked in green mode. Would it be a thing for carebears to take up ganking for a while to make things safe in the long run or am I just too twisted?

Overall? Looks good and this along with the other posts makes for a fairly solid addition/modification of the game.

November is going to be busy, eh?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#42 - 2016-10-08 05:59:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Let's keep the issue of ganking separately, as there is an easy way to address that with the security settings.
While an easy solution it's not a good one. The alpha program is aimed at potential paying players and shouldn't have entire areas of activities completely cut off due to fear of current player abuses. It largely defeats the point of allowing alphas in the first place.

Alphas already won't be able to do other entire areas of activities, like lighting cynos or cloaking.
I see high sec ganking the same way so I do not have any issues with cutting them off ganking in high sec too.
I believe CCP is making a mistake by not restricting security settings of alphas in high sec from the get-go.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Not surprising coming from a goon....
Your goal is to have as much meat shields as possible, so a system that funnels player automatically to large alliance is to your strict benefit.
I support giving more tools for players to play solo, and not have to have to join larger groups to play the game.
And that's somehow a worse solution than massively abusable infinite characters even with poorly conceived gameplay locks? Also there's a very narrow range for solo empowerment that doesn't benefit groups of players who can pool that benefit and exploit it further. Alphas DO NOT fall into that range in any way.


I do not agree.
If hordes of alpha create situations that break the game, then hordes of Omegas create even worse situations. Let's not kid ourselves, here.

Candidate for CSM XII

Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#43 - 2016-10-08 06:07:05 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
At my gaming desk, i have 3 computers (2 Macs and a winblows machine)

Can I run an alpha on each computer or is that against the EULA?

What if I am running my typical 12 clients doing whatever I do and my son logs in an Alpha on his computer?
Is that a EULA violation?

If I use my Mac and run each client in a "Space" which is a OSX feature which make a virtual machine, can I run as many alphas as I want? I can currently run as many trial accounts as i want for reference... Is this against the EULA?

Mind you, I am asking if it is against the EULA in future tense....


Another reason to not restrict alphas alts artificially as currently planned.
Players with large technological assets, and multi computers setup will "abuse" the alphas simply because they have access to those. Sucks to be a one-machine player...

Candidate for CSM XII

Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#44 - 2016-10-08 06:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Mike Azariah wrote:
I am curious what the 'line' will be for too many ganks and push for the locked in green mode. Would it be a thing for carebears to take up ganking for a while to make things safe in the long run or am I just too twisted?

That depends entirely on your definition of Carebear. A significant portion of CODE. is alts of industrialists, who understand that BOOM makes the market go round.

If, on the other hand, you mean those paranoid of completing the "Loss of a ship" opportunity, I doubt it. They either have too strong feelings of how dirty and dishonorable it is, or lack the motivation. For the ones who try, it will be a good experience. Especially if they continue with the same character once they have to deal with -10 sec status. They will learn many valuable lessons in the process.

Borat Guereen wrote:

Another reason to not restrict alphas alts artificially as currently planned.
Players with large technological assets, and multi computers setup will "abuse" the alphas simply because they have access to those. Sucks to be a one-machine player...

What abuse are you talking about, exactly?

Hauling things around highsec, that an alt on an existing account with an hour of training will do better? Venture mining for a mil per cargo haul? Last time I made a new mining character I didn't even undock until he could fly a barge. It just wasn't worth the effort. Vexor/Arbitrator ratting for the whopping 10? mil an hour you'll get in null with 5 medium drones and low capped skills? Maybe less if you have to gimp the fit because of bad fitting skills and lack of T2 modules forcing more tank/capacitor over damage.

I do a wide variety of activities with significantly more than one account on one computer. There are many better ways for me to make use of additional hardware, if I had it, than run a permanent trial account.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#45 - 2016-10-08 06:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Mike Azariah wrote:
I am curious what the 'line' will be for too many ganks and push for the locked in green mode. Would it be a thing for carebears to take up ganking for a while to make things safe in the long run or am I just too twisted?
If the carebears can't be bothered to do one of the dozen simple things that make you all-but-immune to ganking, what makes you think they will suddenly put in enough effort to organize themselves into effective gankers?

But it is an interesting question: how much highsec piracy is the correct number? Arguably Eve had more players and was growing faster when ganking was much easier and probably much more commonplace. Most Eve players agree that the correct number is not zero, but after that there is a wide diversity of opinion on how common or difficult it should be, although often these discussions are coloured by the player's natural aversion to losing their stuff, and their misconception of how common or easy it is.

A game where no one can lose their stuff isn't a very interesting one though (or at least it isn't a full-time, PvP sandbox like Eve), so CCP should discount these self-interested opinions, especially from those who have experienced an in-game loss and are not happy about it. I still don't know though what metric is the best one. Probably it should be losses due to crime as some fraction of some economic number like goods produced, transported or average income. If ganking is having a significant effect on the economy, it probably should be reined in. Again though, I don't know what level it becomes significant.

From CCP Quant's numbers though we know even total highsec losses, let alone those just to criminals, are a small fraction of a single percent of all the goods transported in highsec so I think there is a lot of room to go before we get into problem territory.
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#46 - 2016-10-08 07:16:02 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:

Another reason to not restrict alphas alts artificially as currently planned.
Players with large technological assets, and multi computers setup will "abuse" the alphas simply because they have access to those. Sucks to be a one-machine player...

What abuse are you talking about, exactly?


I do not know, people seems to think that unlimited Alphas will lead to "abuses" (note that I did use the "quotes")
There are people with massive amount of ISK that can create massive amounts of Omegas, but somehow massive amounts of Omegas seems fine while massive amounts of Alphas is not.. go figure...

Vald Tegor wrote:

Hauling things around highsec, that an alt on an existing account with an hour of training will do better? Venture mining for a mil per cargo haul? Last time I made a new mining character I didn't even undock until he could fly a barge. It just wasn't worth the effort. Vexor/Arbitrator ratting for the whopping 10? mil an hour you'll get in null with 5 medium drones and low capped skills? Maybe less if you have to gimp the fit because of bad fitting skills and lack of T2 modules forcing more tank/capacitor over damage.

I do a wide variety of activities with significantly more than one account on one computer. There are a many better ways for me to make use of additional hardware, if I had it, than run a permanent trial account.

Preaching to the choir, brother.

Candidate for CSM XII

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#47 - 2016-10-08 07:57:30 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Quote:
restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active

But if I first login with Alpha, and then Omega?


Do you really have to ask whether a particular way of evading the technical implementation of the rules is legitimate?
Lotus Ambrosia
Mad Men Inc
#48 - 2016-10-08 08:01:54 UTC
I also would like to know what happens if you are using +5 implants on a omega clone that reverts to alpha.
Due to missing skills for level 5 cyber, do +5 implants count as 0, +3 or +5?
voetius
Grundrisse
#49 - 2016-10-08 09:16:24 UTC

@CCP looks like you have done a good job of addressing the major concerns that existing players have about how the alpha status could be abused.

One edge case that I thought of, which may not be all that important. In the past players sometimes created say a character of a particular race, say because they liked the look of that race, e.g. Caldari. They then trained the racial skills of a different race, e.g. Minmatar. So in this situation a returning ex-subscriber could be in the position of having alpha status but no alpha skills.

My personal opinion is that this would be tough cookies and trying to code around it would be a bit of a nightmare but I wanted to bring it to your attention.

Good luck on the implementation; and I hope all goes well for the future of the game.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#50 - 2016-10-08 09:23:41 UTC
Quote:
We agree and so we are planning to implement restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active. This will be true even if the other client is Omega.


Denying customers access to a simultaneous logged in second alt will hurt CCP games in the long run.
There has always been an average of 1.5 account per User, meaning there is more Opportunity for revenue.
source: http://imgur.com/a/XWvkh

The graphs even show an increasing demand for more then one active (Omega) account per User Roll
CCP games should revert it's decision and give alpha clone accounts an Incentive to pay for Omega status.
If you pay for an Omega account you should get the Reward of activating one alpha alt clone simultaneously.

Regards, a Freelancer

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#51 - 2016-10-08 09:34:51 UTC
Quote:
The topic of high-sec ganking was the first thing to follow after simultaneous logon. This subject is pretty complex, and discussion on it during our first session soaked up 45 minutes without any signs of slowing. The general concern is simple: free accounts will make suicide ganking easier and therefore more common, which is bad.


Has both parties, the CSM and CCP, done the math concerning Hisec ganking profitability when it comes to:

- Assigning drones in a fleet by alpha clones to one capsuleer for ganking purposes ?
- Assigning free Gnosis cruisers to alpha clones, lowering the cost of their use for ganking purposes ?

Regards, a Freelancer

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Cephalosa Galactica
conch entertainment
#52 - 2016-10-08 11:25:31 UTC
I find this whole alpha clone-free-to play thing simply ********. I predict a downfall in the amount of ships killed per month...oh wait thats already happening, the entire galaxy is as of now producing about three times more than it is destroying. So implementing another feature to increase the amount of players login into the game with restricted skills that will innevitably push them towards some sort of job within the chain of production /****** pvp seems like you want the galaxy to become carebear land. This feature as you now present it seems like a head shot to the balance of ships destroyed versus ships made specially in the state that the economy is in right now. Everyone's wallets are fat as hell, the big power blocks are not blowing up big ships and you want to introduce a whole new breed of capsuleers that can basically do two things...either mining or **** pvp ( the kind that does absolutly nothing for the bigger picture) The prices of super capitals keep plummeting on a daily basis. There hasnt been a major war in many months and now this. Apparently CCP is really looking to finally make this game as crappy as every other mmo out there.. ( i should have known when you change the griffin hull from a cool looking ship to the idk-wtf-is-that hull that it is now) But hey ill keep playing with my "Omega" you guys are just providing much easier targets for me to gank. Thank you for that...I look forward to your GM's sending me email about why i shouldn't blow up new players. Everything else i have read on this seems like utter crap and i truly don't know what kind of thinking is behind this whole idea because in all aspects and cross referencing with the current economic numbers that i have independently done points to the quick downfall of the gameplay that made eve epic. Yours truly "The Ceph"
Dotter Wrex
Cabaret
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2016-10-08 11:28:54 UTC
I think Clone states will be great for the game. The CSM and CCP have made good choices in how to apply the new feature. However, there was no mention of how Alphas will impact Faction warfare space. Plex farmers (i.e non-pvp fitted, warp core stabilized players) will become an even larger problem and potentially destabilize the LP market. The FW mechanics should be adjusted to prevent this scenario.
Cephalosa Galactica
conch entertainment
#54 - 2016-10-08 11:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cephalosa Galactica
I am truly going to love killing all these alpha clones. " Welcome to hello kitty with spaceships...here have a taste of my gankalyst"


-It is called highsec, not safesec.
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
#55 - 2016-10-08 11:39:04 UTC
What exites me the most about this blog:
- your teamfoto
Cephalosa Galactica
conch entertainment
#56 - 2016-10-08 11:42:18 UTC
Jon Hellguard wrote:
What exites me the most about this blog:
- your teamfoto


I swear they all look like 9+ toons multiboxing nullsec miners
Cephalosa Galactica
conch entertainment
#57 - 2016-10-08 11:45:25 UTC
I also strongly beleive that this whole thing is specifically aimed at the big mistake they made with extractors/injectors and the ability to run 29 toons in an SP farm :) and not pay jack shiet for any of them ..im sure we will find a way to exploit your alpha clones dear CCP. Which by then you will come up with some other ******** idea.
JambiEv
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2016-10-08 12:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: JambiEv
Actually it worse than EA's SWTOR free to play, i see 10000 blogs saying same things about CCP.
With such limitations you better dont add free to play at all or dont call it free to play, just unlimited trial.

Because i dont see how such drastic skill cap and x2 slower skill training can keep newbies playing, if you say its for new players then why all this so called "free to play" is all about stopping old players from abusing?
I dont think new players are all abusers, cheaters and exploiters.

I see only 1 option, add Delta clones for those who got 3 months of subscribtion or buy it for 3 plex. Something like buy to play.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#59 - 2016-10-08 13:54:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Marmaladen Amala wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Tavi Itonula wrote:
I'd like to welcome all the SP farmers....seriously.
...
Now granted, the skill injector market will absolutely crash and will normalize. Maybe that's what CCP is intending....

Re-read a few of the dev blogs on it. Alpha chars won't be able to extract alpha skills. This means that you'll have to (1) sub to extract alpha skills, (2) sub to train non-alpha skills you can then extract, or (3) extract skills you trained when you had subbed previously.

There's probably going to be a dip in their price, no doubt, when this first goes live, and it'll probably stay down for the first few months, but it's unlikely to crash and even less likely to be permanent.

Remember: alpha's currently will only have ~5 mil SP (even with the bump to Drones V), but you need 5.5 mil at a minimum to extract. You aren't going to be able to train to an extractable level to get a "freebie" in when you sub.


It will crash ...

Have a look at this simple Skill Trader farm ... however you have to rotate your toons, but there is no Alpha account limitation!
Currently a Skill trader sells 4 Skill Injectors for more than 1 Plex + 4 Skill extractors
With Alpha they will:
- Train a new Alpha to 5m SP
- Plex the account
- Learn 2m SP non-Alpha skills (to 7m)
- Extract 2m SP Alpha skills (3m Alpha/2m Omega left) ... 1 Plex to 4 Injectors
- Train Alpha again to 5m SP
- Plex the account
- Learn 2m SP non-Alpha skills (to 9m)
- Extract 4m SP Alpha skill (1m Alpha/4m Omega left) ... 1 Plex for 8 Injectors (income doubled!)
- Train Alpha again to 5m SP
- Plex the account
- learn 2m SP non-Alpha skills (to 11m)
- Extract 5m SP Alpha skill + 1m Omega skills (5m Omega left) ... 1 Plex for 12 Injectors (income doubled!)
- ... repeat
However at the end you will have every 5 month 14 Injectors for 1 Plex for each toon ... therefore Skill Injectors will crash in the next year, because this is an easy safe way to get 100th of billions in one year.
If your skill farm has 50 toons now ... you have to create 300 toons and rotate them for a regular income in the future.
If they do it right now, they will start with no alpha skills in november and can start with the largest number of Skill Extractors early 2017.

The only thing to prevent this from happening is locking the racial skills for every character from skill extraction. If you have chosen to be Caldari, there is no need to remove the Alpha Caldari skills (also with Omega status) ... it is your primary faction you have chosen. Eve has consequences!
However this is possibly CCPs intention to push the skill injectors price down to have this more affordable for new players.

It will not ruin the game, it will just ruin the profit to extract any SP from Omega toons.

It won't crash the price of skill injectors, but simply stabilise them to the subscription cost in PLEX + extractor give or take depending on market fluctuations.

The fact that Alpha skills are not going to be possible to extract is a very good thing as it means that people won't be able to train up free SP which would have thrown the value of SP into freefall and probably killed the game.

I think CCP have done a good job with Alpha clones, it seems like a lot of the concerns have been addressed.

My main concern is that the fundamental game needs improvement as player retention is going to be poor. Maybe they should have sorted that out first.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#60 - 2016-10-08 17:23:32 UTC
If a character lapses from Omega to Alpha with, say, 30 days left on an Omega-only skill, will there be a ghost training period (currently 3 days?), will the entire skill finish training, or will training simply stop?