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Dev blog: Clone States - Post CSM Summit Roundup

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FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-10-07 18:21:35 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
"The CSM’s number one focus for Clone States matched the biggest concern from general player f
let's talk about "the potential for abuse and exploitation".
What kind of abuse and exploitation would the multiple login of Alpha brings that multiple login of Omega does not bring?


Running multiple Omega accounts has a cost. I quad-box, but a lot of my playtime is dedicated to making the Isk to PLEX those accounts. Alternately I could pay $60 a month, but again there is a cost here.

Contrast this with Alpha accounts. I set up 50 of them on the first day and train them into blaster Catalysts. I don't care how long this takes because it's free; I just update skills as required until its done. Then I use them in batches of 15, flying ships that cost less than 1m Isk, to gank haulers. Once their sec status gets too low I stop logging them in and make new ones. I could do the same with mining ventures, and have a low but infinitely scale-able source of income with zero overhead.

The only cost to me is buying their ships and skills, and I can earn enough to set one up in ten minutes without breaking a sweat. Since the cost is so trivial, and since multi-boxing lets me scale the numbers up to compensate for low individual power, there is no real in-game barrier to abuse besides how fast I can tab between windows.

By limiting it to one account at least a group of real humans cooperating is required, which is actually quite hard. Especially getting Eve-playing humans to cooperate...
Kharamete
Royal Assent
#22 - 2016-10-07 18:26:48 UTC
Quote:

Skill Extraction will be allowed for Alphas. This is another one of those areas where we can see potential issues down the line with SP farming, but we also really want returning players to have the option to extract old skills if they like. This could be a good path for many returners to go Omega, or just fund for some startup ships and modules. Of course, we won’t allow Alphas to extract skills in the Alpha set, but we may need even further restrictions later. It’s an easy one for us to keep an eye on so we will just update later with changes if they are needed.


I was thinking about this section.

I don't know if you plan to keep that four hour 'free play' you have for people with inactive accounts who just want to apply a plex. It's happened to me a couple of times when I've forgot to apply plex before the subscription ran out OopsBig smile

Wouldn't it be a better mechanic to leave that four hour thing to allow upgrades to Omegas from Alphas? That way you could disallow scooping from alphas, but still give inactive Omegas an option to do so if they want to scoop out a Plex? This way there's no ambiguity about scooping - it's only ever an Omega Clone thing.

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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2016-10-07 18:41:17 UTC
At my gaming desk, i have 3 computers (2 Macs and a winblows machine)

Can I run an alpha on each computer or is that against the EULA?

What if I am running my typical 12 clients doing whatever I do and my son logs in an Alpha on his computer?
Is that a EULA violation?

If I use my Mac and run each client in a "Space" which is a OSX feature which make a virtual machine, can I run as many alphas as I want? I can currently run as many trial accounts as i want for reference... Is this against the EULA?

Mind you, I am asking if it is against the EULA in future tense....
Marmaladen Amala
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2016-10-07 18:52:34 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Tavi Itonula wrote:
I'd like to welcome all the SP farmers....seriously.
...
Now granted, the skill injector market will absolutely crash and will normalize. Maybe that's what CCP is intending....

Re-read a few of the dev blogs on it. Alpha chars won't be able to extract alpha skills. This means that you'll have to (1) sub to extract alpha skills, (2) sub to train non-alpha skills you can then extract, or (3) extract skills you trained when you had subbed previously.

There's probably going to be a dip in their price, no doubt, when this first goes live, and it'll probably stay down for the first few months, but it's unlikely to crash and even less likely to be permanent.

Remember: alpha's currently will only have ~5 mil SP (even with the bump to Drones V), but you need 5.5 mil at a minimum to extract. You aren't going to be able to train to an extractable level to get a "freebie" in when you sub.


It will crash ...

Have a look at this simple Skill Trader farm ... however you have to rotate your toons, but there is no Alpha account limitation!
Currently a Skill trader sells 4 Skill Injectors for more than 1 Plex + 4 Skill extractors
With Alpha they will:
- Train a new Alpha to 5m SP
- Plex the account
- Learn 2m SP non-Alpha skills (to 7m)
- Extract 2m SP Alpha skills (3m Alpha/2m Omega left) ... 1 Plex to 4 Injectors
- Train Alpha again to 5m SP
- Plex the account
- Learn 2m SP non-Alpha skills (to 9m)
- Extract 4m SP Alpha skill (1m Alpha/4m Omega left) ... 1 Plex for 8 Injectors (income doubled!)
- Train Alpha again to 5m SP
- Plex the account
- learn 2m SP non-Alpha skills (to 11m)
- Extract 5m SP Alpha skill + 1m Omega skills (5m Omega left) ... 1 Plex for 12 Injectors (income doubled!)
- ... repeat
However at the end you will have every 5 month 14 Injectors for 1 Plex for each toon ... therefore Skill Injectors will crash in the next year, because this is an easy safe way to get 100th of billions in one year.
If your skill farm has 50 toons now ... you have to create 300 toons and rotate them for a regular income in the future.
If they do it right now, they will start with no alpha skills in november and can start with the largest number of Skill Extractors early 2017.

The only thing to prevent this from happening is locking the racial skills for every character from skill extraction. If you have chosen to be Caldari, there is no need to remove the Alpha Caldari skills (also with Omega status) ... it is your primary faction you have chosen. Eve has consequences!
However this is possibly CCPs intention to push the skill injectors price down to have this more affordable for new players.

It will not ruin the game, it will just ruin the profit to extract any SP from Omega toons.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-10-07 18:58:42 UTC
Was there a change in the plan to allow alpha skills themselves to be extracted? I understand from the blog that Alphas can extract skills, but i'm not clear as to whether that's only the disable omega skills or the alpha skills as well.
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#26 - 2016-10-07 19:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Borat Guereen
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:

...I set up 50 of them on the first day and train them into blaster Catalysts. I don't care how long this takes because it's free; I just update skills as required until its done. Then I use them in batches of 15, flying ships that cost less than 1m Isk, to gank haulers.

Let's keep the issue of ganking separately, as there is an easy way to address that with the security settings.


FearlessLittleToaster wrote:

I could do the same with mining ventures, and have a low but infinitely scale-able source of income with zero overhead.

The only cost to me is buying their ships and skills, and I can earn enough to set one up in ten minutes without breaking a sweat. Since the cost is so trivial, and since multi-boxing lets me scale the numbers up to compensate for low individual power, there is no real in-game barrier to abuse besides how fast I can tab between windows.

Yes, there is a in-game barrier: Other players will have a field day with your cheap fleet, and it creates more content.

FearlessLittleToaster wrote:

By limiting it to one account at least a group of real humans cooperating is required, which is actually quite hard. Especially getting Eve-playing humans to cooperate...

Not surprising coming from a goon....
Your goal is to have as much meat shields as possible, so a system that funnels player automatically to large alliance is to your strict benefit.
I support giving more tools for players to play solo, and not have to have to join larger groups to play the game.

Candidate for CSM XII
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#27 - 2016-10-07 19:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Tavi Itonula wrote:
I'd like to welcome all the SP farmers....seriously. Why limit PI but leave a gaping hole with people having as many SP alts as you care to have?

You can make the argument that SP income would be limited vs PI, but will it? Really? I mean I could have 50 SP alts rotating around and extracting 600M ISK every 8.5 days per account. That's 30 BIL every 8.5 days based on current prices and 2500 sp/hr. The number can be adjusted based on might be allowed, etc. But that amount of "passive" income is tremendous.

Now granted, the skill injector market will absolutely crash and will normalize. Maybe that's what CCP is intending....

They cannot extract the alpha skills. The only way to get SP that can be extracted is to subscribe. From the first blog:

" Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills?

A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set."

So, they are changing the rules for extraction, but no one, Alpha or Omega, will be able to extract the Alpha skills.

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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#28 - 2016-10-07 19:17:59 UTC
Marmaladen Amala wrote:

The only thing to prevent this from happening is locking the racial skills for every character from skill extraction. If you have chosen to be Caldari, there is no need to remove the Alpha Caldari skills (also with Omega status) ... it is your primary faction you have chosen. Eve has consequences!

So far as I've understood it, I've been under the belief that this was already going to be the case (alpha skills couldn't be extracted, either at all, or they could be, but not below their max-level for alpha). I'm in full agreement if that isn't the case, though; it would be heavily abused.

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Palanchan
Skobar Dunavski
#29 - 2016-10-07 19:45:21 UTC
so i cant log two clients, alpha + omega ?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-10-07 19:51:36 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
Let's keep the issue of ganking separately, as there is an easy way to address that with the security settings.
While an easy solution it's not a good one. The alpha program is aimed at potential paying players and shouldn't have entire areas of activities completely cut off due to fear of current player abuses. It largely defeats the point of allowing alphas in the first place.

Borat Guereen wrote:
Not surprising coming from a goon....
Your goal is to have as much meat shields as possible, so a system that funnels player automatically to large alliance is to your strict benefit.
I support giving more tools for players to play solo, and not have to have to join larger groups to play the game.
And that's somehow a worse solution than massively abusable infinite characters even with poorly conceived gameplay locks? Also there's a very narrow range for solo empowerment that doesn't benefit groups of players who can pool that benefit and exploit it further. Alphas DO NOT fall into that range in any way.
IcewaterKat
#31 - 2016-10-07 20:01:20 UTC
Hi-sec ganking will be an issue. Count on it. Why? How many people will create an alpha to make an issue out of this because of how many ruffled feathers there are about it.

Personally I think any skill that is able to go above IV is too much for an alpha. Why again? Drone tactics can be devastating if applied correctly. Looking at what other skills are allowed in drones either can be said to be nerfed for any omega account.

Lets make it fair for alpha clones to be more like omega clones, you say. Who comes up with this wonderful line of thought? No offense to them, but I think that is overly naive. Do you want people to play eve for free or to subscribe? How is this going to hook new players and casual players who don't subscribe? Better yet, how is this going to keep casual players active subscribers?

How hard is it to use anonymous proxy servers, or paid proxy servers? They are easy to use or pretty cheap. Desktop virtualization, even on the windows platform, is simple enough. How many gifted programmers are there that play eve? How hard would it be to create a mutiboxer that uses separate IPs with forged mac addresses for alpha accounts? Very active steps will need to be taken to prevent abuse, which would potentially have an impact upon connectivity and stability, I would guess. How prepared are you to deal with this from the very start? I'm crossing my fingers for you. How big of button do you have to hit when 'stuff' goes south with the alpha clones to turn it off?

I'm excited for the changes within the game and some of the mechanics, but the transition for alphas seems hurried and overbalanced with the attempt to try to get it as close and as tempting as an omega account...to entice new or returning players. Umm, I would think something that gives them a small taste of the primary mechanics of the game would be a place to start, and if need be add in other features if it's not gaining as much interest. Seriously, how much more could you push it with the current plan should that not seem to be enough to gather the desired interest? What more can be added? What sort of impact would further improvements to alpha clones become a further detriment to omega clones?

I really am worried about the future of EVE Online with this move to limited free play with what is offered. I do hope that the expectations you have will be met. Now I have to wait to see if continuing to subscribe will be worth it, or if I can just as much fun without paying....or find a new game to play. :(

Kats loves cheese more than mouses. :p
Lotus Ambrosia
Mad Men Inc
#32 - 2016-10-07 20:06:54 UTC
What will happen to omega chars that are RP farming (Datacore) when the revert to alpha?
What will happen with trade orders when a omega char reversts to alpha?
How are taxes apploid to orderst that are put upp by an omega char but are sold during alpha state?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#33 - 2016-10-07 20:12:32 UTC
CCP, as far a ganking control goes, there is an intermediate step between doing nothing and forcing the safety off red for all alphas:

You can only set the safety to red if your security status is above a minimum value (say, -2).

This allows new players to try ganking. But they cannot make a full time career out of it. They would have to either spend time keeping their sec status up, buy tags, or go Omega.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2016-10-07 20:14:01 UTC
Lotus Ambrosia wrote:
What will happen to omega chars that are RP farming (Datacore) when the revert to alpha?
What will happen with trade orders when a omega char reversts to alpha?
How are taxes apploid to orderst that are put upp by an omega char but are sold during alpha state?

Considering taxes are taken at time of sale IIRC I'd assume they would pay the alpha tax. Datacores I'm interested in the answer to though. I don't recall any explicit statement on that.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#35 - 2016-10-07 21:30:00 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
Then I use them in batches of 15, flying ships that cost less than 1m Isk, to gank haulers. Once their sec status gets too low I stop logging them in and make new ones

Firstly, recycling characters to avoid the consequences of negative security status is a TOS breach.
Secondly, actual gankers do not care about their security status.

On the topic of increased suicide ganking, lets look at some logical consequences of Alpha clones in that regard:

The goal is to attract a number of new players to Eve. Presumably the distribution of their chosen activities will mirror the current population. This means the raw number of suicide gankers will go up. Likewise, the number of people doing silly things to make themselves a gank target will also go up.

If you do NOT see an increase in suicide ganking rates, it means something is wrong.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#36 - 2016-10-07 21:44:53 UTC
IcewaterKat wrote:

How hard is it to use anonymous proxy servers, or paid proxy servers? They are easy to use or pretty cheap. Desktop virtualization, even on the windows platform, is simple enough. How many gifted programmers are there that play eve? How hard would it be to create a mutiboxer that uses separate IPs with forged mac addresses for alpha accounts? Very active steps will need to be taken to prevent abuse, which would potentially have an impact upon connectivity and stability, I would guess.


We have a lot of them. And guess what - they can do this today with trial accounts that make better gankers than the alphas will.

What prevents them from doing it? They are also smart enough to realize the fact that you can pause your que for a couple of weeks and make an infinitely more useful, permanent, t2 gank character on an existing omega account. Or get a month of multiple character training. Setting all that up is literally not worth the effort, let alone the consequences if you mess up and get caught.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-10-07 21:54:11 UTC
Looks all very good to me ... well prepared ... now let's hope it will (re)vitalize EvE.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Czaris Faldamourr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2016-10-07 22:36:27 UTC
I'm not a very experienced player, but here are my thoughts on the Alpha from my limited knowledge and how I play( Exploration and mining):

- The T1 industrial ships are unbalanced. Gallante has by far the best T1 industrial ships in my opinion. More specialized hauling ships for ore, minerals, and Planetary Interaction commodities

- The exploration ships are unbalanced. I have no desire to fly around in a Magnate... all the other races ships are much better.

- It would be nice to have a one time race change option for older accounts or at least the T1 exploration and industrial ships not locked to race. I know some will say you can start a new character for free so this doesn't matter. I have 8 mil SP and I have no desire to start over. It takes too long. If I unsubbed there is a good chance I would not play at all, if locked to Amarr ships.

Trolls please stay away
Cristl
#39 - 2016-10-08 01:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cristl
Czaris Faldamourr wrote:
I'm not a very experienced player, but here are my thoughts on the Alpha from my limited knowledge and how I play( Exploration and mining):

- The T1 industrial ships are unbalanced. Gallante has by far the best T1 industrial ships in my opinion. More specialized hauling ships for ore, minerals, and Planetary Interaction commodities

- The exploration ships are unbalanced. I have no desire to fly around in a Magnate... all the other races ships are much better.

- It would be nice to have a one time race change option for older accounts or at least the T1 exploration and industrial ships not locked to race. I know some will say you can start a new character for free so this doesn't matter. I have 8 mil SP and I have no desire to start over. It takes too long. If I unsubbed there is a good chance I would not play at all, if locked to Amarr ships.

Trolls please stay away

Most people use an alt for hauling, so they can always just make gallente alt's I suppose.

The magnate should probably have a slot moved to mid, I agree.
Gerark
#40 - 2016-10-08 01:51:07 UTC
Czaris Faldamourr wrote:
I'm not a very experienced player, but here are my thoughts on the Alpha from my limited knowledge and how I play( Exploration and mining):

- The T1 industrial ships are unbalanced. Gallante has by far the best T1 industrial ships in my opinion. More specialized hauling ships for ore, minerals, and Planetary Interaction commodities

- The exploration ships are unbalanced. I have no desire to fly around in a Magnate... all the other races ships are much better.

- It would be nice to have a one time race change option for older accounts or at least the T1 exploration and industrial ships not locked to race. I know some will say you can start a new character for free so this doesn't matter. I have 8 mil SP and I have no desire to start over. It takes too long. If I unsubbed there is a good chance I would not play at all, if locked to Amarr ships.

Trolls please stay away


I would love it if ex-Omegas turned Alphas could use cross-race ships. Keep the skill limits as they are, but if you train as an omega you get access to a wider, but not deeper set of options. A small perk for having been an Omega at some point.
For example: You start as a Caldari Alpha; have fun so you sub to Omega; play for a while and cross-train Amarr; decide you to take a step back and play more casually so you let it lapse into Alpha, you can't train Amarr any more, but you can still fly the ships with the same limitations as an Amarr Alpha would have.