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Dev blog: Mining Foreman Revolution

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TomyLobo
U2EZ
#101 - 2016-10-06 02:23:05 UTC
Gou Litvyak wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


A max yield fit Rorq without an industrial core outmines an unboosted hulk.
A max yield fit Rorq without an industrial core is outmined by a max boosted hulk.


But to get max boosts you have to deploy the core, dont you? So if you have to deploy it to outmine hulks, and can use the rorqs large cargo to not have to haul. In the end the question is the same. Why even bring exhumers to mining when the Rorq is just plain better? At this rate they might just ditch the mining drones for remote piloted exhumer drones controlled by the rorq.

Why isn't every single capable player flying dreads/carriers in high class whs and null sec sites when they can clearly do it faster than marauders?
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2016-10-06 06:18:24 UTC
Hmm Mining drone Augmentors on Rorquals Tee Hee hee.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2016-10-06 09:18:46 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
Hmm Mining drone Augmentors on Rorquals Tee Hee hee.

the figure he quotes i beleve already includes 2x T2 and 1x T1 fitted...
Nya Kittenheart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#104 - 2016-10-06 09:27:30 UTC
Grookshank wrote:

This is a bad idea. An invulnerable cyno...


This is exactly what the game needed from a long time ago .Something allowing full frontal assault without the risk to see your fleet cut in half ...
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2016-10-06 17:12:48 UTC
Force rorquals to stay in belt is bad already,
but to give that insane boost to mining of those with industry core active,
that is worst possible thing to do, better simply remove mining boost at all.
Can't imagine the sick brain behind such idea, but it is what will benefit only few biggest alliances, and put in mayor disadvantage EVERYONE else.
Just look at megacyte price, hour after that dev blow, it drop 20%? on price.

This is why CCP lose playerbase all the time, as CCP listen to those cry babys gathered around failscade alliances, who are in minority, but cry loudest and everywhere.
Grace Tolentino
You Do Note
#106 - 2016-10-06 19:32:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We're not planning on changing the restrictions on what ships are allowed into the Rorq SMB at this time. The concern with removing the restrictions is that it would become too powerful combined with the increased jump range.



I understand the concerns about the ship restriction but the limited hangar bay isnt very useful. (I understand the original idea of a Rorqual jumping into a system and host its own mining operation complete with barges, but things came out a bit diferently) No one hauls mining ships around regularly and people use contracts to hand out barges and industrials from station. a rorq pilot wouldnt keep non-combat ships in the hangar when on field because it would just be an unesesarry risk to do so.

How about removing restriction but reducing the hangar capacity to limit ship transport potential but still have the option of having a couple of combat ships in there for defense ? The orca has this option

Also, would it be too impactful to give the rorq the ability to compress ore without the required use of the core ? No one would field a rorq in risky space anyway so 99% of the time, youd be mining in a system with a compression POS.- since as it stands today, only barges and haulers are on grid and ore gets compressed without the use of a rorq - this change would save haulers a few warps. it would not greatly increase yield, but would just make things a bit more convenient.

Forgive me if my views seems a bit limited, but i would welcome feedback for better understanding
Rhaegon Aesir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2016-10-07 07:40:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Check out the specific feedback threads for the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual. This thread will be the general purpose feedback thread for everything that doesn't fit into the others.

Thanks in advance for all your constructive feedback!

:Edit:
A couple quick answers to questions we see coming up multiple times:

  • We're not planning on changing the restrictions on what ships are allowed into the Rorq SMB at this time. The concern with removing the restrictions is that it would become too powerful combined with the increased jump range.
  • The mining foreman ships won't have any ability to mine gas or mercoxit at this time. You'll want to use other ships for mining those substances.


So basically everyone is going to forget about this ship just like the Endurance. Nobody in W-space mines ice, because it is only found in C13s, which are very few in number and you cannot set up POSes or citadels there, which means you have to either roll into one or wait for a random connection...which happens approximately never.

No ore belts in wormholes either, just anoms (which don't even spawn half the time) so nobody mines ores in W-space either.

So the porpoise can mine ore and ice, which are either not present or extremely impractical to find in wormholes. But the one resource that is abundant in W-space, the one resource that everyone from newbies to bittervets go after : gas. And you completely block the porpoise from harvesting it in any way or form.

You will literally never see these used in W-space, just like you never see the endurance used anywhere ever. Good job CCP.
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2016-10-07 08:35:02 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
Force rorquals to stay in belt is bad already,
but to give that insane boost to mining of those with industry core active,
that is worst possible thing to do, better simply remove mining boost at all.
Can't imagine the sick brain behind such idea, but it is what will benefit only few biggest alliances, and put in mayor disadvantage EVERYONE else.
Just look at megacyte price, hour after that dev blow, it drop 20%? on price.

Right, The panic module really screams "Sov Space". Low-Sec Corps need something to buff the fighting abilities of the mining fleet instead on relying on external help. A heavy buff to combat drone damage and durability, without the invulnerability but some self repping boost would do the trick.
Galinius Valgani
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2016-10-07 09:00:06 UTC
They could introduce an emergency drone Overload.
Only applies to mining ships.
Increase speed and tracking and damage off all affected ships by X%.
This would make skiff fleets devastating.

I think the PANIC should only apply to mining ships as well.
Marox Calendale
Xynodyne
The Initiative.
#110 - 2016-10-07 09:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Marox Calendale
Rhaegon Aesir wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Check out the specific feedback threads for the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual. This thread will be the general purpose feedback thread for everything that doesn't fit into the others.

Thanks in advance for all your constructive feedback!

:Edit:
A couple quick answers to questions we see coming up multiple times:

  • We're not planning on changing the restrictions on what ships are allowed into the Rorq SMB at this time. The concern with removing the restrictions is that it would become too powerful combined with the increased jump range.
  • The mining foreman ships won't have any ability to mine gas or mercoxit at this time. You'll want to use other ships for mining those substances.


So basically everyone is going to forget about this ship just like the Endurance. Nobody in W-space mines ice, because it is only found in C13s, which are very few in number and you cannot set up POSes or citadels there, which means you have to either roll into one or wait for a random connection...which happens approximately never.

No ore belts in wormholes either, just anoms (which don't even spawn half the time) so nobody mines ores in W-space either.

So the porpoise can mine ore and ice, which are either not present or extremely impractical to find in wormholes. But the one resource that is abundant in W-space, the one resource that everyone from newbies to bittervets go after : gas. And you completely block the porpoise from harvesting it in any way or form.

You will literally never see these used in W-space, just like you never see the endurance used anywhere ever. Good job CCP.


Copied from the porpoise blog:

Marox Calendale wrote:
I am ok with that for orca and rorqual, but you really should think about any possibility for the porpoise to harvest gas. If not, you won´t see this ship used very often.

In HS the Orca will still dominate the mining fleets and everywhere else it will be the rorqual. The porpoise then will not be more than a training ship for mining noobs. Most of them will probably skill directly to orca and get one from their corp.

But with the ability of huffing gas, this ship would be really ideal to boost gas harvesting fleets in any kind of space. Have a look at the venture before prospect was released. How long did young miners use it until they switched to any barge? And how often was it used in any kind of dangerous space to harvest gas?

The porpoise is being made to support gas harvesting fleets. You know it! But without the ability to harvest gas by itself, Gnosis will still be the first choice for that role.
Gou Litvyak
Doomheim
#111 - 2016-10-07 20:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gou Litvyak
I have no idea what i am doing and i only have paint at my hands, but this is a flowchart of how i imagine a Rorq overhaul, to make it and the orca the centerpiece of a mining OP.

Flowchart
Mining foreman invites Miner to link his ship to the OP
Miner gets invite
Mining Foreman UI (rorq/orca)

Basically the Rorq/orca has drones which collects ore from linked ships, processes the ore, logs and makes it easy to interact with external spreadsheets or even handle it ingame in said UI, to handle payouts etc. You can set settings, like values of M3's of ores, and display that in a nice overview of the OP/linked ships. And save sessions/view previous sessions.

PANIC mode would be completely overhauled, what do a miner do when he panics? Run, Run like the ******* wind.
New PANIC function : cancel active deployment cycle and immiately undeploy(takes 10 seconds or so), discarding all ore currently in the Rorq's Fleet Ore storage, a storage which you cant jettison from or drag to other cargos, you can only drop it off in a station or to a POS or hand-off to another ship.

Yes, PANIC, drop your **** and run, way more lore friendly than a module which turns you invincible imo.


Anyways thats just my opinion, i have not even mined in ****, five years. Just need this off my chest.
Earthling Hibou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2016-10-07 22:29:19 UTC
Covering YrBack wrote:
Assuming that barges under rorqual will mine 34% faster but 15% less (19% effective ore yeld in total) with a great threat to rorqual in industrial core there are no things to be happy about.
Plus hulk ore cycle will be 44 sec which is very big stress for pilots running several windows.


It wasn't stated explicitly anywhere, but it seems like this is the whole point! Everything about these updates promotes active mining and increasing yield for players/teams who are willing to focus, and move as necessary.

As a new player multiboxing is a HUGE turnoff. Sounds like how it would work if it was a real job but I want to play a game. I love that these balances (in-belt boosts in particular, but also broader boosting ship options and overall buffed drones) give miners hope that they can be relevant in the game with only a single character. :D
teloded
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2016-10-08 05:03:14 UTC
Um I has question for CCP please follow the Link. I do my math on paper. Am I insane? I would really like to know.
http://imgur.com/a/9FBdj

Thanks

All Pasta, No Sauce
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#114 - 2016-10-08 14:41:23 UTC
teloded wrote:
Um I has question for CCP please follow the Link. I do my math on paper. Am I insane? I would really like to know.
http://imgur.com/a/9FBdj

Thanks



Materials are for making 500 charges.

500 heavy water at 200 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/16272/
500 Trit at 6.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/34/
500 isogen at 86.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/37/

(I've bumped the prices a bit from the lowest sell price)

So each charge will cost 292.2 isk to make, plus a little for taxes. call it 320 if you're making in jita (yay for easy division. and making in jita is dumb, as it increases your costs by 10%)

Call it half a million isk for a full days boosting for mining.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
teloded
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2016-10-08 18:59:03 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
teloded wrote:
Um I has question for CCP please follow the Link. I do my math on paper. Am I insane? I would really like to know.
http://imgur.com/a/9FBdj

Thanks



Materials are for making 500 charges.

500 heavy water at 200 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/16272/
500 Trit at 6.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/34/
500 isogen at 86.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/37/

(I've bumped the prices a bit from the lowest sell price)

So each charge will cost 292.2 isk to make, plus a little for taxes. call it 320 if you're making in jita (yay for easy division. and making in jita is dumb, as it increases your costs by 10%)

Call it half a million isk for a full days boosting for mining.



Thank you I missed the Batch count statement in the post.

But yes dont make in Jita, and I dont, only use it to check prices.
Still though having to spend 420,638 isk in materials (That I whole heartedly think is waste of materials). This just means I get to charge more on my finished products I guess.
(Possibly go in Orca thread?)
Also if they intend for this to be on grid all the time. Why make the ore hold bigger for the Orca?
Filling it would be pointly then. This becomes a problem because you also have to start calculating travel time to and from station. Using this given time, you can calculate total minerals not lost and get a closer number. Also calculate minerals not mined via loss of boosts... WHY CCP???? WHY MUST YOU MAKE ME RECALCULATE PROFITS!!!!
(Possibly a question that belongs in the Orca thread?)

Do that or just buy a second orca and jet can mine via the Orca

All Pasta, No Sauce
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#116 - 2016-10-08 20:33:51 UTC
teloded wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
teloded wrote:
Um I has question for CCP please follow the Link. I do my math on paper. Am I insane? I would really like to know.
http://imgur.com/a/9FBdj

Thanks



Materials are for making 500 charges.

500 heavy water at 200 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/16272/
500 Trit at 6.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/34/
500 isogen at 86.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/37/

(I've bumped the prices a bit from the lowest sell price)

So each charge will cost 292.2 isk to make, plus a little for taxes. call it 320 if you're making in jita (yay for easy division. and making in jita is dumb, as it increases your costs by 10%)

Call it half a million isk for a full days boosting for mining.



Thank you I missed the Batch count statement in the post.

But yes dont make in Jita, and I dont, only use it to check prices.
Still though having to spend 420,638 isk in materials (That I whole heartedly think is waste of materials). This just means I get to charge more on my finished products I guess.
(Possibly go in Orca thread?)
Also if they intend for this to be on grid all the time. Why make the ore hold bigger for the Orca?
Filling it would be pointly then. This becomes a problem because you also have to start calculating travel time to and from station. Using this given time, you can calculate total minerals not lost and get a closer number. Also calculate minerals not mined via loss of boosts... WHY CCP???? WHY MUST YOU MAKE ME RECALCULATE PROFITS!!!!
(Possibly a question that belongs in the Orca thread?)

Do that or just buy a second orca and jet can mine via the Orca



You have the larger bay, to give the people you're supporting more time on grid. With hulks, for example.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
teloded
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2016-10-08 20:53:40 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
teloded wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
teloded wrote:
Um I has question for CCP please follow the Link. I do my math on paper. Am I insane? I would really like to know.
http://imgur.com/a/9FBdj

Thanks



Materials are for making 500 charges.

500 heavy water at 200 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/16272/
500 Trit at 6.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/34/
500 isogen at 86.1 isk per unit. https://market.fuzzwork.co.uk/hub/type/37/

(I've bumped the prices a bit from the lowest sell price)

So each charge will cost 292.2 isk to make, plus a little for taxes. call it 320 if you're making in jita (yay for easy division. and making in jita is dumb, as it increases your costs by 10%)

Call it half a million isk for a full days boosting for mining.



Thank you I missed the Batch count statement in the post.

But yes dont make in Jita, and I dont, only use it to check prices.
Still though having to spend 420,638 isk in materials (That I whole heartedly think is waste of materials). This just means I get to charge more on my finished products I guess.
(Possibly go in Orca thread?)
Also if they intend for this to be on grid all the time. Why make the ore hold bigger for the Orca?
Filling it would be pointly then. This becomes a problem because you also have to start calculating travel time to and from station. Using this given time, you can calculate total minerals not lost and get a closer number. Also calculate minerals not mined via loss of boosts... WHY CCP???? WHY MUST YOU MAKE ME RECALCULATE PROFITS!!!!
(Possibly a question that belongs in the Orca thread?)

Do that or just buy a second orca and jet can mine via the Orca



You have the larger bay, to give the people you're supporting more time on grid. With hulks, for example.


But your then again having to coordinate and calculate lossed revenue.
And yes I know im nit picking but muh spreadsheets man! they all messed up now!

All Pasta, No Sauce
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2016-10-09 09:19:58 UTC
teloded wrote:
Thank you I missed the Batch count statement in the post.

But yes dont make in Jita, and I dont, only use it to check prices.
Still though having to spend 420,638 isk in materials (That I whole heartedly think is waste of materials). This just means I get to charge more on my finished products I guess.


Try using faction ammo and cry again.....
How long do you need to mine for 500k ISK? And how many mining crystals do you use in that time? Sorry, but 500k is totally irrelevant.
Penance Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#119 - 2016-10-09 10:41:59 UTC
Will the new Command Processor Rig have new skills required?
JanSVK
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2016-10-09 12:17:58 UTC
I like the boosts to the Mining Foreman Ship. Finally the Rorqual is worth it's price. The boost to defense and offence is great and it gives miners more options to balance risk/ reward.

Now! By design the Mining Foreman Ship (Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual) are AFK miner/boosters. Warp to belt, activate boosts, launch drones, done. There is no interesting nor engaging gameplay here. It is even more dull than current mining in an afk mackinaw.

What are the plans with cloaky campers? If these changes are implemented without sorting this out a cloaky camper more then ever will be able to disrupt mining in 0.0.

P.A.N.I.C. - It is great that it can give you extra 5 minutes for your ally to react. Unfortunatel in EVE 5 minutes is a very very short time to organize a defense fleet.
- All pilots and ships are trapped with the Rorqual in P.A.N.I.C. where the only thing they can do is mine and wait. They can not switch ships and all the pilots in a Retriever, Covetor, Mackinaw or Hulk are basically just sitting ducks waiting to be killed.
- Keeping an active defense fleet in system just sitting and waiting in case something happens is ineffective and booring for all the pilots involved.

possibel solutions:
- Anty AFK cloak !!!!!!
- Anty AFK cloak !!!!!!
- Allow all barge/exhumer pilots to switch their ships in the Rorqual. The rorqual could have a fleet of combat procurer/skiff in maintnance bay. Ideal would be some viable PVP ships (Cruiser, BC, BS...) but the Rorqual can hold olny mining ships....
- Allow a certain number of mining barge/exhumers (with an upper limit) to warp off so they can switch to PVP ships and help defend an a PVP ship.