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[November] Rorqual Changes

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#201 - 2016-10-05 18:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Monee Sasen wrote:
Why is there always an assumption that that panic button is there to allow time for defenders to come and help. What if you operate in a small corp in null and there is no-one to help?
...
Are you just making players move into larger corps/alliances to try and benefit from having a defenders there by eliminating the small people.

You can:
- insure it and pray to Bob;
- recruit more ppl;
- use barges.

A small corporation cannot drop titans left and right like PL either. So what? HTFU.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#202 - 2016-10-05 18:21:49 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
in the PANIC Mode

I am concerned about the use of Capital repers being used when Panic Mode is on, Its repair ability repair other combat ships while in Industrial and Panic mode, making it an unkillable Force Aux target for upto 7.5 mins

Could this repairing be only limited to those sharing the same Panic effect as the Rorqual, since it only will be working on ships producing no FPS, Even giving the inability to use remote reps while in panic mode might work.

What about the Panic mode effecting Electronic warfare - for 7.5 mins you have indestructable industrials that can tackle and jam for upto 7.5 mins, being immune even to doomdays

Mining fleet = best Tackle -> should not be the case.

To keep the Panic in line with it's intentions of being a Sit and wait for help tool

Prevent Rorqual providing Remote reps,
--> it has a passive regen x10 ability plus a 99.99% immunity. I would take a capital feel to take out a Covetor. remote reps beyond drones would be overkill.

Prevent the use of Electronic fair modules


I think the purpose of remote reps in the panic would be to assist your defenders.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#203 - 2016-10-05 18:23:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Can we get some more details on the excavator/ore/ice drones?

Also, can we have the functionality of the survey scanner looked at soon please? If the changes go through as planned it's going to be even more important that mining is organized well to prevent massive overlaps.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2016-10-05 18:37:08 UTC
Myrriam wrote:
Somebody already tried to figure amount of tank which will have 20 Rorqs in remrep setup? And I personally know ppl who will have 20 rorqs deployed right after this changes goes live.


Roughly between a **** load and a **** ton.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2016-10-05 18:39:00 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:
#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

Assuming it works like normal drones, there is a "mine repeatedly" option.


That doesn't change the mine one cycle and return behavior. Mining drones have always worked that way. They return to the parent ship to drop off their ore and then go back to the rock after each cycle

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#206 - 2016-10-05 18:42:50 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:
Everyone seems to be getting really excited about the theoretical yield of the rorqual but they're completely forgetting how bad drone mining mechanics are.

#1. There isn't even a hot key to make the mine, you have to use the context menu.

#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

The excavator drones exist on tranquility right now and they MWD at 100m/s. That's like a 10+ minute round trip to some of the ore site asteroids even with drone navigation comps and skills. The base speed needs to be an order of magnitude higher, or these things will spend over 90% of their time in transit and a sieged rorqual will be considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. The other option is that the Rorqual, a capital ship with **** for agility and warp speed that must additionally exit siege, rewarps for basically every individual asteroid it mines, and spends 90%+ of its time in warp... and is considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. Even if the drones are much quicker than the preliminary stats imply they will be, that theoretical yield will translate into a real yield of 25-50%, if that, and they'll be barely worth using as an upgrade over a Hulk.

With a theoretical yield of 18400m^3/minute and the speed as they exist on tranquility currently, for an asteroid 40,000m away (i.e. roughly the range something like half of the rocks in a colossal are from the warpin), it will take the drone 800 seconds (13.3 minutes) to travel for every 60 seconds of mining, meaning its real yield is 6.976% of the theoretical 18400 or 1283m^3 per minute. With drone navigation 5 and the MWD bonus from siege it will be 162.5m/s or 492s (8.2 minutes) of travel for 60 seconds of mining, or 10.8% efficiency / 1999m^3 per minute. That's like 20m isk/hr on spod, lol.

Put another way, a rookie ship with Miner II's jetcan mining (187m^3/min) would give an unsieged Rorqual (8.5% efficiency at 40km with 125m/s speed, of 3000m^3/min =257m^3/min) a good contest for most of an ore site after you factor in travel time if the base speed on tranquility is currently representative of final stats.


Tiberizzle, as usual, with the Real Dope on eve game mechanics. Listen to this man.



Why on earth would any miner be 40k away from the rocks and trying to use drones?

Take a shuttle, bookmark a rock then warp to it..what's the problem?

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2016-10-05 18:59:57 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:

Me, on contrast, prefer Rorqual to be a wunderwaffe on paper and every miner's pipe dream. But if said miners get into those vessels, I dont want them to crash the market. It is very good if Rorq requires expert manual piloting. Give them miners something to do, and solve the multiboxing problem. Sounds great.


I would be more receptive to this argument if it required expert manual piloting. Unfortunately neither making 50 bookmarks before mining nor turning on an MWD, clicking an asteroid, and hitting approach are all that engaging. If a mechanic was created to make mining engaging and heavily reward skill I would be 100% behind it. This, on the other hand, would just be tedious.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#208 - 2016-10-05 19:06:34 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Querns wrote:
Tiberizzle wrote:
Everyone seems to be getting really excited about the theoretical yield of the rorqual but they're completely forgetting how bad drone mining mechanics are.

#1. There isn't even a hot key to make the mine, you have to use the context menu.

#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

The excavator drones exist on tranquility right now and they MWD at 100m/s. That's like a 10+ minute round trip to some of the ore site asteroids even with drone navigation comps and skills. The base speed needs to be an order of magnitude higher, or these things will spend over 90% of their time in transit and a sieged rorqual will be considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. The other option is that the Rorqual, a capital ship with **** for agility and warp speed that must additionally exit siege, rewarps for basically every individual asteroid it mines, and spends 90%+ of its time in warp... and is considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. Even if the drones are much quicker than the preliminary stats imply they will be, that theoretical yield will translate into a real yield of 25-50%, if that, and they'll be barely worth using as an upgrade over a Hulk.

With a theoretical yield of 18400m^3/minute and the speed as they exist on tranquility currently, for an asteroid 40,000m away (i.e. roughly the range something like half of the rocks in a colossal are from the warpin), it will take the drone 800 seconds (13.3 minutes) to travel for every 60 seconds of mining, meaning its real yield is 6.976% of the theoretical 18400 or 1283m^3 per minute. With drone navigation 5 and the MWD bonus from siege it will be 162.5m/s or 492s (8.2 minutes) of travel for 60 seconds of mining, or 10.8% efficiency / 1999m^3 per minute. That's like 20m isk/hr on spod, lol.

Put another way, a rookie ship with Miner II's jetcan mining (187m^3/min) would give an unsieged Rorqual (8.5% efficiency at 40km with 125m/s speed, of 3000m^3/min =257m^3/min) a good contest for most of an ore site after you factor in travel time if the base speed on tranquility is currently representative of final stats.


Tiberizzle, as usual, with the Real Dope on eve game mechanics. Listen to this man.



Why on earth would any miner be 40k away from the rocks and trying to use drones?

Take a shuttle, bookmark a rock then warp to it..what's the problem?

The rorqual has to siege. This locks it in place for 5 minutes.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Dutow Sa
Jupiter Fleet
#209 - 2016-10-05 19:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dutow Sa
Quote:
+140% Local shield booster repair amount
-60% Local shield booster duration
-75% Remote shield booster duration and cap use
+120% Remote shield booster optimal and falloff range

Just keep calm and don't panic for a moment: let's focus on these changes for the industry core.

  • With a single capital ASB, a Rorqual is easily capable of tanking 15-20k++ dps.
  • Can repair 340 shield hp / sec per large remote shield rep. Assuming 80% resistances, that's 1.7k dps. With 8 high slots, it's not that hard to fit 4 reps or even more => 6.8k dps tanked for fleetmates.
  • These numbers are without fleet boosts, and the Rorqual receives bonuses for shield boosting too.
  • And there's still slots left for drone modules.
  • Add ECM immunity as a nice extra.

So if this Rorqual is defending a citadel, where it's easy to supply it with infinite amount of charges for it's ASB...

Now let's remember that panic button too!

  • "tethering (if already tethered do not apply)". So it's not just that I can perma-panic a rorqual using another's fitting service, I can even keep said rorqual tethered if I want to? Nice extra, might be useful sometimes.
  • It's a simple tradeoff: keeping one rorqual in panic means we lose around some dps, but we get an invulnerable ewar + command boost platform.
  • Good thing that panic won't affect other Rorquals: that would hurt our dps.
  • Also, now any of our corpmates should be able to fly invulnerable ewar indy ships to annoy the enermy (and keep their logis jammed and scrambled).
  • By corpmates, of course I mean 10 multiboxed alpha clones in T1 indy ships. Multiboxing is easy when you don't have to watch most of your alts! Just orbit & scram & jam the logis, and forget about them until you devour their other ships with your drones and any other combat ships (kept alive by remote reps of two or more rorquals)
David Mandrake
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2016-10-05 19:33:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:

I have no idea what you're talking about. But you have skill extractors.

To explain for the people who don't understand shield tanking.

Shield regen is not static. It varies based on your current shield level.
Your max shield regen is at about 33%, as your shields drop below 33% the passive regen actually gets less.
Tactical Shield Manipulation moves your bleed through margin by 5% per skill level. Bleed through is where a small percentage of the damage to your shields actually skips shields and applies to armour. While this sounds like a bad thing, it actually helps passive shield tanking by keeping your shield regen at a higher level meaning overall you can take more damage over time.
This means Tactical Shield Manipulation actually hurts your passive shield tanking the better you have it trained. I can't name a single other skill in EVE where training it makes something worse.

Most people have to train this skill to 4 in order to use Tech 2 Invulns, the odd wallet warrior keeps it at 1 and only ever uses faction invulns which cost a lot more obviously, but means they get better passive tank.

By making this a requirement of V, you have to put yourself in the worst possible position for passive shield tanking, and you will not be able to extract it because it is a requirement for something else, and you can't extract requirements.
So no you do not have skill extractors, and it's high time CCP solved this skill being a negative to train.


To put it out there, having tested this awhile back, you're looking at a negligible regen bonus from TSM IV vs V. it is a slight hurt to train it - but on a Chimera fit for full resists on the weapons I was using, it wound up being a 1k or so HP difference on the killmail iirc. I'll try to see if I can find my results - and if not, I'll see about recreating it - but although it is a net negative to train, the negative effect likely won't play a role aside from a few edge cases.
Denngarr B'tarn
Bitter Creek Testing Industrial SA
#211 - 2016-10-05 20:48:38 UTC
I'm actually stunned that the 'Extractor' drones are looking as good as they are. I'm all for more drones in the mining belts personally as currently they just aren't worth much (or in case of ice, useless).

With the PANIC button, based on what I could read, we can at least align to a warp out, so it's far less likely to be a massacre or potentially crawl to the edge of bubbles. A cyno would definitely be nice to fire off to warp in a rescue fleet.

The only thing I can see that it troubling is the amount of Heavy Water the T2 Industrial core requires. Since I don't use T2 siege/triage, it may be a comparable difference, but that additional 500 pre-bonus is just painful as hell. I hate having to burn heavy water anyhow, but this could really make it prohibitive to run with a T2 core. I would personally only recommend 1250 at most since we're only seeing a 20% increase in boosting from T2 vs T1.

That being said, I'll be finishing off Industrial Reconfiguration V just so I can give it the max on boosting.
David Mandrake
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2016-10-05 21:19:25 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
PANIC module wrote:
All turret, missile, drone and smartbomb damage set to 0

What about neuts and ewar? Can I have a wing of Scorpions sitting there invulnerable for the most of the fight and jamming the crap out of enemies?



Because Scorpions are not industrial ships, and as people seem to be missing a lot, industrial ships are the only ships that are covered by the PANIC module. Otherwise it would not only be pretty prone to abuse, but abuse far greater than just having a few battleships on field with your miners to jam things.

Monee Sasen wrote:
Why is there always an assumption that that panic button is there to allow time for defenders to come and help. What if you operate in a small corp in null and there is no-one to help?

Is the answer that we will be penalised because the only solution will be not to operate the industrial core which effectively makes the compression null n void which was the main trait of a Rorqual.

or

Are you just making players move into larger corps/alliances to try and benefit from having a defenders there by eliminating the small people.

All in all i think the nessesary use of the Panic button and being stuck ( because it will happen and you will need it ) will just deter the single solo players like me from the game.





Because larger groups have more resources, so they're able to field bigger toys. If you try to set up the Rorqual so that a tiny group can use it in near complete safety from the larger groups, then you'd basically have to make it unkillable - I mean, using your argument, CCP isn't doing much to help me if my Rorqual is dropped by a few dozen Titans and supers. But it's not expected to. If you're attacked by a group large enough to completely destroy your defense, then they're going to kill your big toys if you make them vulnerable. Thus act accordingly.

This is Eve. If you can't defend it or get people to defend it for you, you don't deserve to have it.

Dutow Sa wrote:
Stuff


I had a big reply written out to your post, but the forums won't let me post it. But I think you need to look at the Rorqual as not a big mining barge, but as a capital, and compare it to those. I also think you need to check your numbers - the Rorqual can't rep nearly as much as you claim (the bonus is on it's local reps, not remote) - and even if it could, a Fax will outstrip it's repping power with a single repper.

For a combat situation, aside from fun fleets, I don't see why you would choose a Rorqual over a cheaper ship that's more effective at it's job - and yes, other caps are cheaper than Rorquals. The single most expensive ship I've ever owned is a Rorqual, and I've owned every kind of capital. You could, potentially, use it as an Entosis ship similar to what people are doing with Faxes - but it's still expensive to do this with it.

Basically it's an expensive, jack of all trades ship and although it does have it's niche and will do great doing what it's designed to do - mining support and logistics (not the fleet logistics type, the "I need 100,000m3 of fuel moved to this tower in the middle of nowhere" logistics). But it won't do that great at anything else, and I don't think you'll see any serious fleet concepts with it. Though I'm sure people will do Battle Rorqs, just like they do already, and they'll still die in a fire.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#213 - 2016-10-05 21:22:12 UTC
Will the PANIC button be restricted with a weapons timer? I won't argue whether or not it should, but is it intended gameplay to get engaged by a gang, slaughter some with 2000 drone DPS, and once I get into armor PANIC and rep myself back up while invulnerable?

Also, does the max yield include Capital Drone Mining Augmentors or is it just with max skills?

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Echo Mande
#214 - 2016-10-05 21:37:43 UTC
Querns wrote:
Do they not have Astrahus or pos-mounted Compression Arrays where you live?


The main bonus of onboard compression is not so much to bypass citadels or compression arrays, as it is to allow a command ship to stay on-station longer and to not have to have a chain of haulers to haul all that ore at a 1:1 volume to a citadel or POS array. With the nifty tractor bonuses this will also include other mining ships' ore. Less haulers == more miners or PVP cover.

Call on-board compression another quite powerful way of helping fleetmates mine more effectively.

Those reasons are the same reasons I would really really like the orca to be able to compress.

Wallet remarks everywhere
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#215 - 2016-10-05 21:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
this is a refreshing post.

you guys have it going the right way on the mining side.

the porpouse is a cool lil ship!

orca changes rule!
5 hammer heads? not, 1 gecko.

and the rorqual..holy ****!

i dont understand the cargo scanner bonus tho. its only used in low or null, you arent worried about scanning folks cargo. by the time you lock anyone they have warped. feelt windows tells you how much each person mined.

maybe someone can tell me how this can be used?



anyway, 18.4k per minute under siege is 92k per siege or a full ore hold in 15 minutes.
EPIC! 300k ore, nice!
jump in a wh, siege in a belt and 15 minutes later, come home and build a battleship.. =)
(or so)...
5 rorquals in a belt sieging will be 10k dps. assign to a drone bunny and smoke everything that comes in belt.


i take back all but 3 of the bad things i said about you fozzy... ;-)
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#216 - 2016-10-05 21:56:03 UTC
Denngarr B'tarn wrote:
I'm actually stunned that the 'Extractor' drones are looking as good as they are. I'm all for more drones in the mining belts personally as currently they just aren't worth much (or in case of ice, useless).

With the PANIC button, based on what I could read, we can at least align to a warp out, so it's far less likely to be a massacre or potentially crawl to the edge of bubbles. A cyno would definitely be nice to fire off to warp in a rescue fleet.

The only thing I can see that it troubling is the amount of Heavy Water the T2 Industrial core requires. Since I don't use T2 siege/triage, it may be a comparable difference, but that additional 500 pre-bonus is just painful as hell. I hate having to burn heavy water anyhow, but this could really make it prohibitive to run with a T2 core. I would personally only recommend 1250 at most since we're only seeing a 20% increase in boosting from T2 vs T1.

That being said, I'll be finishing off Industrial Reconfiguration V just so I can give it the max on boosting.


20% per ship for the same 500 HW cost.
10 mining ships would generate 200% yield. thats another 2 miners for 500 HW.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#217 - 2016-10-05 21:58:22 UTC
amazing changes on rorqual. that is kind of love what rorq need :-) <3

sry for my English :-(
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#218 - 2016-10-05 22:02:04 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
i dont understand the cargo scanner bonus tho. its only used in low or null, you arent worried about scanning folks cargo. by the time you lock anyone they have warped. feelt windows tells you how much each person mined.

maybe someone can tell me how this can be used?

Presumably you could scan a cargo can and see if it's full or not, then tractor it in.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#219 - 2016-10-05 22:09:19 UTC
Monee Sasen wrote:
Why is there always an assumption that that panic button is there to allow time for defenders to come and help. What if you operate in a small corp in null and there is no-one to help?

Because you have mining barges around you that can warp off until you panic to reship for combat to break tackle and free the Rorqual, even if no one else is online.

The panic button can also be hit as you start taking armor damage. It will regenerate the Rorqual's shield to full and reset the fight, though you will most likely remain under severe capacitor pressure.

You are also in no way required to fit a panic button, opting instead for a different high slot such as a smartbomb or neutralizer which may be more fitting to your situation.

Monee Sasen wrote:
Is the answer that we will be penalised because the only solution will be not to operate the industrial core

This touches on a post I made in the previous dev blog thread.

I believe the Rorqual and core should not have a significant increase in the mining burst strength over other boosters. Players should not feel punished using the weaker booster options with their barges. The choice on whether to field/siege or not should be purely based on the personal yield of the Rorqual itself.

The current proposal looks like this for a 3 MLU Hulk benefiting from T2 cycle link +implant:
T1 Battlecruiser : 2997 m3/min
Porpoise : 3169 m3/min
Orca : 3262 m3/min
Rorqual : 3467m3/min

Not too bad so far. Unsieged Rorq is only a 298 m3/min increase over a porpoise for a 9.4% gain.

T1 Core : 4312 m3/min
T2 Core : 4533 m3/min

And here is where we miss the mark. A T2 sieged rorqual adds 1364 m3/min to the hulk, for a 43% yield increase over a Porpoise. 30% more than an unsieged Rorqual is FAR too much of a jump.

This also puts the theoretical max yield of the rorq itself, without factoring travel time, at 4 boosted hulks. Combined with travel times, that carrot is looking less and less juicy. Especially considering unsieging to relocate may affect burst uptime on the barges in the fleet. I originally expected a sieged effective yield of two hulks. But the more I think about it, the more I think it will fall below that mark.
Decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#220 - 2016-10-06 00:54:01 UTC
I think people are not reading things very well.

If you are in panic mode the only thing you can do is MINE!!!! you cant tackle, you cant use EW and you cannot attack.