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[November] Rorqual Changes

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#141 - 2016-10-05 05:20:26 UTC
Regan Rotineque wrote:
the cyno issue is going to be controversial

if you allow it the. the rorq may be used as a pvp fleet ship since oppsosing fleets cannot kill the cyno.

if you disallow the cyno you cannot get defense fleets in.

Since this new panic module is defensive in nature whatabout giving it a cyno blocker similar to the current cyno blocker module? itkeeps both sides on a level playground while the panic module is running. once the panic runs out the cyno blocking effect disapates.



Then it gets used as a PVP fleet cyno blocker with a 7 minute duration and the ability to repair it for free at your nearest citadel.
Why are you so worried about it being used as a PvP ship though? The PANIC doesn't last the full duration of the cyno, meaning the Rorq will be locked vulnerable on the field for several minutes. so either the enemy controlled the field super fast with their hot drop meaning you wouldn't have killed the rorq even if it was vulnerable, or the fight is still ongoing and you can now kill the Rorq. If they want to use a 3 billion isk cyno ship let them.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2016-10-05 05:50:17 UTC
Been around since 03, man has time flew. I am going to eat my words, great changes guys it really is. I am really suprised by it. You wont catch me in core mode, but man did you put the carrot out. Very impressed and great job. Been at industry for 12 years and one of the best changes I have seen. I stand corrected.
Katri Ambraelle
Oiniken Miners Guild
Miners Inn University
#143 - 2016-10-05 06:21:58 UTC
I see a lot of people on here crying about how the new Rorq will be multi-boxed to hell and mines too much. My prediction is that overall mining goes down. Let me point out again that a fully fit Rorq will cost over 3 bil. It roughly mines 4.4 Mil/min and is parked while doing so. Without the core it mines less than a hulk. Basically, you can make twice the isk/hr as a carrier but you are extremely likely to lose the ship. It isn't if you will lose it, but when you will lose it. Watching local won't matter because if a 15+ gang comes in your ship is done. Panic module? I fail to see how that helps much. Last time I checked people don't sit around in null with a fleet waiting to go help industrial ships.

The only people that will gain from the new changes are mega corps and wormhole players. How many small null players want to park 3 bil in the belt and hope it doesn't get welped? The Zarvox esq fleets will have a field day with this change and you can bet this will be the kill board padding trash fleet dream. Can you rat with a Dread, sure, but nobody does because it would be dumb to siege up at anoms and with the siege module off a dread damage is laughable. The same goes for mining in a Rorq with the siege module off, laughable.

In my opinion the mining boost changes wreck small corp mining and the risk of turning the core online will only be acceptable to mega corps and wormhole miners. Russian/Chinese isk farming corps and wormholers will love this new change and everyone else probably not so much. Casual miners will switch to ratting and pvp as they will make more isk/hr when they don't have a 3 bil ship boosting them in the belt which will not be often.

I am personally quite disappointed with the proposed changes.
Lickem Lolly
ELUSH Rehab
#144 - 2016-10-05 06:30:39 UTC
Mining != PVP

If we wanted to do PVP, we would go do PVP...


Nobody with a brain will siege 1 rorqual in nullsec, unless they are using it as bait. What you will get is blobs of 20-30 rorquals and massive market problems.

Congratulations. You've given a massive financial boost to the largest blobbing nullsec alliances. Everyone else will have to use Orcas. Hope you're happy.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#145 - 2016-10-05 06:33:52 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Hold up guys...you hear that? It's the sound of a thousand Russian renters stripping entire regions clean in a day.


Someone has never heard of mining anoms before...
Punky260
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2016-10-05 06:50:14 UTC
I like the Rorqual changes so far. It will be a powerful ship, but with a high risk if you want to profit to the max - exactly how I like EVE to be played.

What annoys me the most right now are the skill requirements on the Industrial Core.
I don't really get neither from a logical, nor a game-mechanical point of view why I would need to skill Mass Production and Advanced Mass Production for that module. The required skill has nothing to do with the module itself or what it does/affects. So I would really like to see a change there and make it some skill from the Resource Processing skill-tree instead. Either Resourse Processing itself and maybe Reprocessing Efficiency and others. It's fine for me to add skills up to the skill-time that is needed right now (roughly 20days) with those skills, but it would make much more sense and be more "in line" of the progression as it is right now.


For the PANIC module. I kinda dislike the point that the skill-level is used to determine the time the effect lasts. I know that is the most easy to implement, but it makes it bad to have the skill high in some situations and that is something that should not be a game mechanic. Having a higher skill should always be better, or irrelevant. But it should never be a bad thing!
A simple idea to change this would be to make the skill reduce the consumption of the panic module - and then add a little amount of heavy water or strontium or whatever as a consumable to the panic module. Maybe nanites would work as well. And then this amount would be thing which changes the time of the effect. You could make it similar to a "reinforced"-system on a POS or rather more like a ancillary repair module - both ways would work and add a more individual and exciting gameplay to the overall PANIC mechanic.
You, as the rorqual pilot, would have to decide how long you need your invul-time and you could choose on the situation itself instead of just having to relay on your prophetic skills and have the right level of skill ^^
Allya Erquilenne
Press any key to die
Suetology
#147 - 2016-10-05 06:53:32 UTC
Good afternoon.
I would like to make one suggestion.

I think it would be easier to coordinate industrial operations in deep space if Rorqal portal was as titanium, but able to carry only industrial ships. This would greatly simplify the transfer of its fleet for the development of different systems in the zeros.

As a former miner, I was faced with the problem of the zeros when it was necessary to immediately carry more than 30 shovels of my corporation to another for the production system.

I understand that my idea may be absurd, but it is the place to be. If my idea you still interested, I would like to take part in the discussion.

Thank you in advance :)
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#148 - 2016-10-05 06:57:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Katri Ambraelle wrote:
I see a lot of people on here crying about how the new Rorq will be multi-boxed to hell and mines too much. My prediction is that overall mining goes down. Let me point out again that a fully fit Rorq will cost over 3 bil. It roughly mines 4.4 Mil/min and is parked while doing so. Without the core it mines less than a hulk. Basically, you can make twice the isk/hr as a carrier but you are extremely likely to lose the ship. It isn't if you will lose it, but when you will lose it. Watching local won't matter because if a 15+ gang comes in your ship is done. Panic module? I fail to see how that helps much. Last time I checked people don't sit around in null with a fleet waiting to go help industrial ships.

The only people that will gain from the new changes are mega corps and wormhole players. How many small null players want to park 3 bil in the belt and hope it doesn't get welped? The Zarvox esq fleets will have a field day with this change and you can bet this will be the kill board padding trash fleet dream. Can you rat with a Dread, sure, but nobody does because it would be dumb to siege up at anoms and with the siege module off a dread damage is laughable. The same goes for mining in a Rorq with the siege module off, laughable.

In my opinion the mining boost changes wreck small corp mining and the risk of turning the core online will only be acceptable to mega corps and wormhole miners. Russian/Chinese isk farming corps and wormholers will love this new change and everyone else probably not so much. Casual miners will switch to ratting and pvp as they will make more isk/hr when they don't have a 3 bil ship boosting them in the belt which will not be often.

I am personally quite disappointed with the proposed changes.


Sorry but you are TOTALY wrong.

I were mining with 3 hulks and a Rorq in ore site for 1 year. ONE YEAR. And "gang" was visit me only ONCE. For 1 year i get ganfed only ONE time. And they even kill nothing.
15 crussize ships will do 0 damage to new Rorq.

Its sure that new Rorq useful only in large alliance with intel, home def and claim. Its not for a "solo" multibox guys. And this is awesome.
Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#149 - 2016-10-05 06:58:24 UTC
Double
Berengar Barnes
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2016-10-05 07:00:35 UTC
it would be very convenient to open a cyno while PANIC is running. But i do not see why it is necessary: Every mining-fleet has at least one scout +1 or +2 jumps out. You can jump back to your mining-system and open a cyno.. or am i missing something important here?
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2016-10-05 07:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
Swoop McFly wrote:
So it mines as much as 8 Hulks, is the perfect mining booster, a jump freighter, a carrier and a FAX combined, with double the jumprange, 90% fatigue reduction and a 7 minute invulnerability mode.

Is it just me or does this sound maybe a little bit too good?

It can do pretty much everything. The only thing missing is an exploration bonus.


No.

First, your math sucks. Hulk yield is 3500m3/minute with a 3% implant (22mil), and 3800~ with mining drones. It's 5 or less hulks in yield.
Second, Of course it's the perfect mining booster, that's part of the whole point.
Third, no, not a jump freighter, unless you fancy a tiny cargo bay.
Fourth, no, not a carrier. Has to be sieged to get over 1k dps from drones, can't carry non combat ships in it, doesn't have the burst dps of a carrier
Fifth, similar to a fax, but not as tanky, or as good at repping.
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2016-10-05 08:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Grookshank
This seems problematic on some points:

  1. PANIC should give a combat timer, to stop immediate refitting
  2. PANIC should block all combat actions:
  • Cyno under PANIC makes it an unkillable cyno ship
  • Ewar under PANIC should be a no
  • Repping under PANIC should be a no

Make it a good miner, mining booster with good defenses: yes.
Make it a 10ly, almost no fatigue, immune fax/ECM machine: no.
Assia Eko
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2016-10-05 08:11:55 UTC
Will it trigger an escalation when warping to a C5/6 combat anomaly ?
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#154 - 2016-10-05 08:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Katri Ambraelle wrote:
Let me point out again that a fully fit Rorq will cost over 3 bil. It roughly mines 4.4 Mil/min and is parked while doing so. Without the core it mines less than a hulk. Basically, you can make twice the isk/hr as a carrier but you are extremely likely to lose the ship. It isn't if you will lose it, but when you will lose it.

Let me point out again that "over 3 bil" is a fully fit platinum insured Rorqual.

WHEN you lose it, it will take a whole two to three hours of mining to pay itself off/replace after said insurance payout of 2,215,595,008 ISK.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#155 - 2016-10-05 08:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Rorq is only 3 billion, that's cheap, insurance mitigates a bunch of that.

Players out in the far reaches of nullsec will have whole fleets of these suckers. The supply of minerals will be obscene, leading to an inevitable crash of mineral prices and a whole lot of supercaps being built.

Think they've overdone the yields on these.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#156 - 2016-10-05 09:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Why not allow cloaking while the industrial core is active?
All the mining barges would warp off, and the rorq would cloak. The rorq would still be unable to warp for a while, which would mean the hostile fleet would still be able to find it before it warped off if they knew they were looking for a rorq. And the possibility the hauler was already warping to the rorq at zero because the rorq was almost full when local spiked. Whoops!

Under that mechanic, parking close to the belt would mean the hostile fleet wouldn't have very much space to sweep to decloak the rorq.
Parking far away from the belt would increase travel time for the drones, and mean leaving them in space as somewhere between a strong hint and a dead giveaway of where the rorq was.
If the rorq recalled its drones before cloaking and cloaked before they got to the hangar (or at least one was on a return trip), well... the formation of drones would point to a rock at one end and the cloaked rorq at the other.

Edit:
Or there's the choice of not using the rorq's mining drone bonus at all.
Parking closer would mean the rorq would be able to recall all its drones before the reds showed up in belt if the captain was paying attention, but they wouldn't have to do a particularly complicated search pattern to find it.

A signature :o
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#157 - 2016-10-05 09:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Soleil Fournier wrote:
a whole lot of supercaps being built.

Making them more accessible and expendable in general may not be a terrible thing for the game.

The issue is more that the people who already have large stockpiles of them are the ones in position to take advantage of this change to build more. This is not a good thing for new entities trying to enter the arena in the short term. In the long term, we may see more than one massive fight every few years (when someone screws up) as the losses will be more recoverable.

Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Why not allow cloaking while the industrial core is active?

Because what is realistically 4 minutes or less is insufficient to sweep a grid for a cloaked ship. Assuming you found the right grid to start with. Also because I don't know where you get the idea of the Rorqual warping off. You would decloak and immediately jump to a cyno in tether range of a citadel.
Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
Remember Mumuit
#158 - 2016-10-05 09:18:03 UTC
Generally, these changes are nice, but there are some problems in my opinion:

1. With that amount of yield, a few guys multiboxing rorqs can easily clean belts in no time, 18000m3 per minute is more than 10 times more than an exumer(hulk has about 1600m3 per minute). Is there any reason to bring some mining berges?

2. With 10ly jumprange and its insane drone dps bonus this ship becomes the #1 choise for hotdroping and pvp. It is also like the old carriers, with its 15 effective heavy drones it has the same amount as carriers were able to launch before citadel. This also makes it again possibile to run havens and sanctums afk and get about 40 mil per tick or so.

3. With its bonuses to RR, this ship is just like a FAX with a lot more DPS. The Industrial core boosts remote reps AND DPS. FAX triage module set drone dps to 0 when activated.

solutions:

1 and 2: Give the Rorqual a fighter bay and fighters, it gets 4 launch tubes, 3 for light fighters, one for heavy fighters, one for support fighters and 3 for the harvest drones. Remove the dps bonus from the industrial core and replace the drone damage bonus to a 10% bonus to fighter damage and hitpoints per level. With that, the Rorq should be able to deal about 40% of the damage a supercarrier can do, but with much less application against small targets and if you want to rat in it, you need to be on keyboard. Also this solves the problem of afk beltcleaning as you need to manually activate the mining lasers of the drones and also manually unload cargo of every single flight. (one flight of harvest drones has 9 drones, just as a light fighter squadrom). This makes it hard to farm afk or multibox a lot of ships. With the ability to launch fighters, the rorqual also should be able to fit fighter support units. And its jumprange should stay as it is now.

3. remove 2 hi slots and add them to low slots, which makes it less effective as a RR ship and the industrial core should set fighter missile dps to 0 and drastically reduce applications of their primary weapons. So they are still effective against npc's, but the ship will then not be able to benefit from RR bonuses and beeing able to do a lot of dps.

what do you think CCP?

otherwhise this ship just kills the market as T1 ships become insanely cheap and those mining in less effective ships will most likely stop that.

i'm REALY miss the old stuff. 

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2016-10-05 09:30:03 UTC
Aldran Gentlharp wrote:
basicaly i like the changes of the rorqual and the stats of the panic module exept one thing. Preventing all affected ships from warp makes this panic module and the rorqual rather useless.

It is to provide time for defence fleet to formup and arrive. Not to let industrials flee.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Thunder Fenix
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2016-10-05 10:07:38 UTC
Will be nice to see rorquals on field again!

Just can i suggest to increase even more ore hold and fleet hangars?

Why even bigger ore hold?
well considering incoming m3 of ore during fleet ops it will probably be a clickfest for compression, have bigger ore hold would mitigate this (make instead auto-stack and auto-compression cycling every few seconds in ore hold as added feature would be the best choice here, would completely avoid repeatitive actions)

Why bigger fleet hangar?
more ore mining = more compressed ore to be hauled out. Only efficient way to do so is have other toon hauling it and only way to haul stuff out from rorqual is place it in fleet hangar so can be taken out by other fleet members, again here drag & drop fest for both rorqual pilot and hauler.
Deep Transport with max skills can haul almost 70k m3 so increasing fleet hangar to match it will halve repetitive ops. All of course cutting out space from normal cargo.