Intergalactic Summit

In a vain attempt to address the actual statement that caused this topic in the first place....


*I* do not understand the institution of Slavery. I have heard some of the arguments both for and against it - but there simply isn't room for those arguments AND the observations I've made in the field regarding the phenomenon.

That said, it's not my place to understand slavery. It's not a cultural institution in The State and it hasn't had a place in any of the forerunner cultures that antecede The State. Slavery has a definition in The State, but I suspect that simple abduction doesn't really do the concept as it is practised in the Empire any real justice. Back home, Slavery is pretty much defined by duct-taping a strangers hands together and chucking them in a cargo hold before selling them on to someone with rather dubious sexual tastes or a short-term labour problem.

In The Empire, slavery is both an economic and a cultural / spiritual institution. I rather dislike the idea of telling someone how to believe but, then, I don't think my beliefs are necessarily the best for everyone in the Cluster, and the Amarr really think they have the one-size-fits-all religious solution. If you legitimately believe the things the Amarr are said to believe, I understand why you'd think that Slavery was a little distasteful but vitally necessary for the good of everyone's souls.

Economically, I think the verdict is in. Slavery is a horrible way to run an economy. The Empire manages to cover up a lot of the besetting economic sins of a slave based economy with the inherent stability of their society and the sheer size of their economy. In a way, though, the economic disadvantages of slavery go some way towards lending credence to the spiritual argument - if it's inefficient then they clearly aren't doing it for economic reasons, right?

Hence the intractable nature of this discussion. If the Spiritual angle is taken as valid, then slavery is the only way to get your soul scrubbed clean of whatever patina of guilt you've built up. It's actually a pretty good deal, because once you become a free person then, from what I understand, if you lapse in your religion it's very difficult to win back into the good graces of God. Slaves, on the other hand, are guaranteed a clean slate and all they have to do is submit.

If, on the other hand, you don't accept the Spiritual angle then it becomes a lot more contentious. There are some arguments for slavery - if a planetary population screwed up their planet so badly that an outside culture had to come in and take over, then one could argue that the indigenous population could morally be placed in a state of slavery for the duration of the intervention - provided that the end goal of the project was the emancipation of all slaves into a planet that had been 'fixed'. As an alternative to chaos, anarchy, starvation and death this is a pretty good deal.

This is something of an edge case, however. One might argue that it could have been applied to Skarkon, but other than that there are few examples that spring to mind.

HOWEVER - I have seen examples of Amarrians that seem to be exploiting their slaves. There's little point to arguing that harem-slaves don't exist because I've seen them. There can be no spiritual dimension to a life spent slaking the physical lusts that a Holder doesn't want to share with consensual partners - and the fact that this is treated as a distasteful habit evidencing poor breeding and control rather than an actionable crime does undermine any arguments of slavery as a moral and ethical institution for the betterment of the slaves.

Ah, that's the Amarrian arrogance we know and loathe. Do the cluster a favor and get over yourself. You're not that great. The rest of us are entitled to our opinion, same as you.

If that was the case you probably shouldn't offer up your important books when making first contact with savages.

As most people who frequent these forums know by now, I was born a slave and released later in life. I've spent the last decade as a free woman, and I've seen both sides of the issue. My stance on it has evolved with time. The truth of it is that there are definite flaws with slavery. I cannot in good conscience, after everything I have experienced, deny that. Is a free life better? No. Not necessarily. There are many days when I feel like I should just throw down before my lord and beg for the chains again. Some people might say that's because I'm indoctrinated, brainwashed. I don't think I am. I put a tremendous amount of thought on this topic, because it is something that I lived and continue to live through each and every day.

In my opinion, the issues with slavery have always been the failures of the human being. There is such a thing as humane servitude, where holder and slave both prosper. In a slave-based system, the slave works to meet the needs of the holder, who in his success provides for the needs of the servant. Though "free" societies often encourage the belief that personal ambition is the most important goal, that every individual is a strong, independent entity fit to govern its own life, I don't believe this is our natural state. Not everyone is capable of being that strong, independent entity, and attempting to force them into that role is a source of hurt. There are those who are most fit to rule, and those who serve and find fulfillment in that service. Slavery is, in its ideal, a communal system where we work to provide for others what they cannot provide for themselves. A holder provides leadership, structure, and purpose, and the slave provides labor and advice, physical and mental service. A slave is the limbs of a body, and the master the head.

Where slavery fails is when these roles are badly filled. Masters who have no business leading, who exploit and abuse their servants. Servants who think that leading is better than serving, who break their chains and then wander lost without purpose. People who find themselves in the wrong place, either because they were not reared as they should have been, or because their will overrides their sense and their decency.

Some slaves are paid in money. Some aren't. It doesn't matter which, because payment comes in many forms. No matter if a slave or a free worker, you are being treated wrong if the payment is not worth the service you have rendered, when you are treated as something that is less than human. Those people exist everywhere, because sin and corruption find easy purchase in man's heart. The problem with slavery isn't the lack of money, or the lack of choice, or being a servant. If it was, there wouldn't be so many free people who dream of submitting to someone else, of getting away from the burden of responsibility and embracing a simpler existence in service to someone that will guide them through the scary and confusing thing that is life. Where the problem with slavery lies is in the great power that has been invested in the rulers. A True, righteous man, someone for whom the Reclaiming starts in his own heart, in conquering his own demons, can do great good with that power. But most people aren't that True, righteous man. Most people are weak. That power is easily twisted by evil men to cause great hurt in the people beneath them.

The Amarr of today is not perfect. There are many flaws in what we have let ourselves become that we must address. But Amarr will not become a better nation by taking the values and systems of our neighbors. Is ending the system of slavery the way forward? Maybe, maybe not. It was a system created for the purpose of integrating a conquered society in a way where they could gradually grow to become part of it while not being a burden on our culture and economy. But we're not the Empire of Amash-Akura's day. We haven't been conquerors in a very long time, and in the last millennia we've lost more territory than we've won. Today we integrate people through immigration policies and religious missions, not enslavement. And there is undeniably cases of great harm being done to slaves. Usually by overseers and custodians rather than Holders. Despite common misconceptions, most Holders usually have very little direct contact with their slaves. A Holder owns hundreds or thousands of slaves and rarely has cause to interact with them individually. I saw my Holder in person only once, and it was from a distance. Overseers on the other hand have frequent access, broad authority, and limited supervision.

Even considering all of the above though, slavery is still completely entwined into our societal and economic structures. 50% of Amarr's population is slaves. A full half. They make up most of our labor force, and the entire Empire is set up in a way that job positions are planned, bred, and trained for. A free labor base, naturally, has individual desires about what occupations it wants to fill, but we're not a society that's designed for people to freely seek out work. We have more trade schools than general education ones, workers are contracted out from Holders and only rarely picked up from individual applications, and our only real social net for those who can't make do is slavery itself. Slaves have some of the best job security in the cluster, great healthcare, and pay nothing in relocation or education expenses. All of these things are lost upon being freed, making emancipation a dim prospect not just for Holder but often also for slave. If slavery were, theoretically, to be ended, there are many, many questions that have to be answered first. Even if one believes that there is a long term benefit, it would cause both an economic and a humanitarian crisis in the short.

Whatever the case, it is far from a simple black and white issue. It cannot be boiled down to assertions of "good" or "bad", let alone ended on a whim.

Incorrect. Empress Jamyl I's decree was a one time event only, and does not represent a permanent upper generational limit.

Thank you, Pieter, Captain Mithra.

Now, to address a specific few statements:




While I understand why you have this feeling, certain facts remain true:

1. No-one is telling you the Word is 'wrong and bad'. (Though some people may be saying that what you do with it is.) There are reasons the Amarr practice the form of slavery they do. There are completely different reasons the pirate organizations use 'conscripted employees' in their workforce, especially places like Angel pleasure hubs and other endeavors where the human element is required, but the humans in question may very much not want to be there. This, too, is slavery. Not everything is about you.


2. As for why this is even here: because there was a discussion threatening to derail another thread, and one of the participants suggested that the discussion might be better served in its own thread. Thus, it is now in its own thread, where it can be safely contained, and the people who might be offended that other people actually have opinions can feel free to not read it if they don't want to be offended. Just like it's not about you, not everything requires your attention.


3. As for the quote, it is exactly as true as it is polite. We are all very well aware that civilization collapsed more or less simultaneously on most worlds with the closure of the Eve Gate. We are all also very well aware that none of the currently-surviving populations descended to the level your quote would claim. While I understand that you might feel put upon by the idea that people might have a discussion you don't like, I'm also disappointed. I really had expected better of you.

As has been pointed out many times by the Amarr capsuleers here on the IGS, the emancipation was a singular event, not a continuing one. As a result, any children born to slaves of the 8th generation after the emancipation were not released, and would remain 9th generation slaves. It's an easy mistake to make (I've made it myself, before learning otherwise), but it still doesn't address the idea that even if there were no 9th generation slaves, that's still 7 generations of slaves who committed no crime, unless being born a slave is a crime.

And that's where the similarities with compulsory labor in penal institutions ends, as well, I'm afraid, to return to Captain Mithra's well-stated comparison. Indeed, compulsory labor in corrections facilities is more or less universal through the cluster, and if that were the shape of "slavery" in the Empire, I don't think anyone would really object to that. The issue gets murkier once you start applying the comparison to the children of transgressors. Does being the child of a slave constitute a crime worthy of enslavement in the Empire?

Given the responsibilities and obligations put upon the slaveholder for the well-being of their charges, some might be tempted to seek a comparison with the kind of protective and nurturing services many Clans provide for their orphans, or the children of abusive or unfit parents. But part and parcel of those services is the expectation that upon reaching adulthood, the child will be granted the full measure of self-determination allowed to any adult. That's denied in the Empire, and the rationale I've been given for this denial is... confusing, at best.

What I've been told is that the Empire, and specifically the Amarr Faith, holds children responsible for the sins of their parents, grandparents, and so-on. The sin of simple ignorance of the Amarr Faith is so damning that after nine generations, the sincere, devout, and loving efforts of the Amarr Empire have not been able to remove it from infants born to parents who have not ever had the chance to choose not to be faithful to God in six, maybe seven generations. If the object is to reclaim them and lead them to unity with the faith... why not simply take them from their parents and raise them as free Amarr?

That persistence of subjugation, that persistence of punishing children for the actions of people their great-grandparents never knew, is something of a sticking point. That's what makes the spiritual aspect of Reclaiming very difficult for many of us to believe is sincere. That's why it all winds up, at least from the outside, looking like an economic model put in place by the powerful, and perpetuated by the descendants of those powerful individuals, designed to maintain the power and privilege in the hands of those have always had it.

It says, "Trust me, I have this book that says people like me are supposed to be in charge, and people like you are supposed to serve us." When we ask how the Amarr know the book is right, we're told "People like me said so." And when we ask "Who wrote the book?" we're told "People like me."

Do you see how sketchy that looks, from the outside?

A superb account, Samira. I am in complete agreement with you, and your voice deserves to be heard more than those of anyone else posting in this thread at the moment. Everyone, read Ms. Kernher's words several times over and take them to heart. Anyone who is paying attention to this debate may profit from her outlook and analysis of the institution of slavery as it exists now.

Dunno, he's mine, we have a contract. That's all.

This is a very good question, and the answer lies in Ms. Kernher's post here, though she did cover the subject in a very simple manner. I will seek to elaborate.

To understand the current state of the Minmatar you must understand the specific historical circumstances of their conquest and servitude. The original Minmatar Empire was the first major space-faring civilization the Empire had ever encountered. There was no precedent for the conquest and enslavement of such a large nation except for the Udorian crusades performed thousands of years prior, in wars that were fought with swords and muskets. Never before had such a large population, from so different a culture, with such an inferior military, been presented before the Empire. Needless to say, some of the lessons of the Udorian enslavement were forgotten, and this would eventually come to the detriment of both the Minmatar people and the Empire.

Due to the inferiority of their technology, the vast Minmatar population was conquered very rapidly, in a manner that did not allow for steady incorporation into the Empire's economy, culture and faith. The Udorian conquests, in contrast, happened over about a thousand years, allowing for shifts in both Amarr and Udorian culture as it happened. We hit the Matari with the force of a hammer, breaking them in a few decades rather than chipping away at them steadily and with purpose over millennia, allowing both sculptor and sculpted to adjust and grow together. Their enslavement came with fierce hostility that matched the aggressiveness with which they were conquered. To counter, Matari cultures proved to be both strong and fiercely violent in response, cementing the notion that Minmatar were unruly and warranted the rod far more than the carrot. With the Amarr and Minmatar ideas of one another established, the relationship between masters and Matari slaves have continued to be colored in this way.

As more Matari were taken and produced, with more Amarr treating them poorly and unable to give each the attention they needed, the relationship only became worse. The Minmatar Rebellion was the culmination of this feedback loop of hate and violence, and we now stand where we are today. Simply put, the Amarr failed in their duty to the Minmatar, and the Minmatar failed in their duty to the Amarr.

Specifically, the Amarr failed to consider how best to approach the induction of the Minmatar into the Empire, and suffered the consequences for hastily taking such a large population without examining the issue and forming a measured response. I pray it has learned from its mistakes.

However, for every holder and company that put the Minmatar into the grind of labor and persecution, there were just as many that legitimately tried to foster their devotion and teach them how to live and thrive in God's Empire. The Starkmanir, Sebiestor and Nefantar all gained a reputation for being the best prospects for citizenship and were better treated as a result. Meanwhile the Brutor and Krusal proved to be most obstinate, and suffered under the yoke more. Unfortunately the Rebellion threw them all into the same light, and now the Starkmanir are nearly extinct, the Nefantar trapped in an odd limbo of being distrusted and freed, with the Sebiestor, Brutor, Krusal, and Vherokior still enslaved or free in the hostile Republic, with the Thukker remaining completely unbound. In many ways, I do not blame the Minmatar for hating the Empire, but hating anything or anyone without understanding them first is foolish. At this point they need to let go of their hatreds and reexamine their relationship with the Empire, which has been thoroughly humbled and changed by the past thousand years of history, or risk an escalation of the current hostilities.

Our pasts cannot be forgotten, but they can be forgiven if we examine where we have gone wrong and make efforts to correct them. The state of enslaved Minmatar in the Empire must be improved, while the regard for the Empire must be lifted within the Minmatar. How that will happen is a complicated topic, but it must happen before we destroy one another.

My statement about losing slaves was more in reference to recent years. Realizing that our current stock is likely to be our only one for the foreseeable future, makes Holders more clingy.