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EXPLOIT - free way to drop wardecs

Author
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#21 - 2012-01-14 01:33:27 UTC
Wardecs are more than just people griefing fools in hisec.

For instance, Moar Tears, 0rphanage, Double Tap. and NoirDOT are hired by the big nullsec alliances to grief their foes in hisec, deny market hubs to mains (and in some cases, suicide known hauler alts), and generally deny the safety of hisec to the enemies of their employers. In essence, the squabbles and nonconsensual handjobbing going on in nullsec is telescoped to Hisec via proxies - this gives people who can't go more than 10km away from the undock of Amarr EFA someone to shoot, which is a kind of charity for the mentally disabled.

Of course, the more inept the nullsec alliance, the more there is for the hisec station-hugging cripples to do. For instance, when your alliance leaders decide to attack someone else, and they get surprised that there's a cascade of decs, you really wonder why they haven't hired the mercs themselves beforehand to choke their foes' logistics, rather than have their own in turn japecaged. So, again, only idiots suffer.

The same goes for people who are conducting wars in w-space on systems that connect to hisec. I have never, yet, seen someone hire mercs or drop a dec on their enemies while sieging a hisec static wormhole, to deny their enemies the luxury of playing silly buggers on the hisec.

Sure. There's a bunch of noob corps run by newbs who get decced by people fishing for cheap ganks, and there IS a huge sense of schadenfreunde and luls to be gained by deccing a corp or alliance and seeing it dissolve like a hundred cockroaches escaping the bug spray. You know that not all of them will rejoin once the fight is over, and thus you get the warm sense of accomplishment from making people quit a failcorp.

Psychotic Monk is right, to some extent - there should be no shame in dropping corp and rejoining if the war get too hot for you. Nor should people get het up about their corp having DecShield in its alliance history. Its a vlid tactic, and if your CEO is too dumb, ignorant and prideful to utilise all the tactics available to him to wage war....well, you should find nother corp.

Example, Sudden Buggery decced Dee Alliance. Within 2 days they had shed 3 corps and half their members. They had hired No Kings and Double Tap. We stuck it out for a week, had a couple of GF's. We knew that it cost Dee Alliance 3 billion to hire those two merc outfits and it cost us 150M to dec an alliance - that's the kind of efficiency we expect, to be honest, 95%. No Kings didn't extend their dec to a second week, but Double Tap. did, costing them another packet of money. Within 10 minutes of that I had applied to DecShield and 48hrs later we were clear of our decs, ready to go to town on Dee Alliance again.

The strategy is pretty clear - once pride is out of the equation all that is left is the fact that a whole alliance of 350 guys evaporated down to perhaps 80 alts, and they spent 6 billion ISK defending themselves against 50 toons, 75% of which were alts. More fool them, they'd have done better just wearing a couple of drubbings on the field of battle.

The best bit was when their standings all reset when their corps dropped alliance, and people lost half a dozen ships in lowsec to their respective POS's.

This is war in hisec. Learn to do it properly.

I do agree that people need to educate noobs more about wardecs and tactics to avoid dying unneccessarily and getting frustrated with the game and quitting the game. This is an unfortunate side-effect of the current mechanics.

I think 2M ISk for a corp to dec another corp is too cheap. It should be 2M ISK per week per toon.

I also think you should not be able to insta-join corp or insta-leave in a war. There should be a 24hr timer each way. This will hurt Skunkworks and Moar Tears and so on, but really, if there's 24hr timer for a corp why not the individuals in the corp? If someone's going to join a mail should go out to his would-be foes to warm them a new participant is joining the war. This will solve a huge part of the problem, IMO
Cardval Simalia
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-01-16 01:28:42 UTC
All war dec probs fixed with a 5 or 7 day timer on changing corp and allince.
Gravecall
Nordic Innovations
#23 - 2012-01-16 13:20:04 UTC
I would suggest the following changes:

Higher cost (2mil isk is pitiful, there needs to be a real cost to a bad choice of target)

Longer time from dec to live so both sides have plenty of time to make their preparations.

Lock down both sides memberships once the declaration is made, or perhaps have a cost to accepting any new members for the duration of the wardec (with members who leave in turn having to pay a fine to get out). Same on alliance hopping for the duration of the war.

Minimum duration of weeks, not like the current system where the wardec only went live and gets cancelled, it needs to be a real strategic decision, not spur of the moment.

Have it managed by the holders of space instead of Concord, e.g. register it with the Caldari state and it only applies within their space, make war decs in others' space and it will apply there too. This in turn would allow reputation mechanics, such that depending on the standings of the corps/alliances with respect to the local powers-that-be the wardec could be more/less expensive.

Basically make it such that both wardeccers and targets need to work to make the most of/survive it, no easy griefing/wimping out on the easy targets or ducking under the umbrella of a questionable alliance membership mechanic.
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#24 - 2012-01-16 15:44:12 UTC
Mara Villoso wrote:
Quoting myself from similar threads:
Mara Villoso wrote:
Have you ever heard the expression, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”? The fundamental issue here is that some people just don’t want to fight. The devs and GMs and mercenaries may wish otherwise and may seek to find ways to force the issue, but those efforts are doomed to failure.

If a dec mechanic locked a corporation into an alliance (or out of one) and locked every single member into that corporation for the duration of the war, it would only lead to people leaving the game. The only result of a push to force people to PvP is that there will be no PvP from those people. It’s just not going to happen. Just like its not happening now, just like it hasn’t been happening for years. The change to wardec policing changes nothing in practice. Those people were always avoiding the decs. The only people affected by hisec wardecs are those with an attachment to their corp name, those with a POS that can’t be taken down quickly, and those who don’t know better. That’s it.

CCP should spend a little time gathering information from those players about why they don’t want to fight. Or under what conditions they would.

At the end of the day, this is what we’re really talking about when we’re talking about wardec shields and evasion. Like it or not, you can lead a carebear to war, but you can’t make him fight.


Mara Villoso wrote:
Wardecs have always been and will always be pointless. As long as they follow the corp and not the player, they can and will be evaded. In effect, this means wardecs affect only people who care about their corp name, have a POS they can't take down quickly, and the clueless. Any change to wardecs that makes them against individuals will lead to those people leaving the game. They don't want to fight. They aren't going to fight. There is nothing you or CCP can do to make them. Period. The End. There is no fix for wardecs. Just get rid of them.
Ganking is, was, and will always be the only way to get individuals.

The only failing of the change to wardec policing by the GMs is POS destruction. The only solutions that are needed are ones that make POS bashing in hisec possible.

Whenever I hear about extending decs to individual pilots, I just shake my head in amazement. What is it that you think will happen? People avoid decs for a reason. They're not interested in fighting. So what happens when the war gets tagged on to the character? Do these people magically decide to change several year's worth of behavior and playstyle and come out with guns blazing? The potential for never ending griefing that goes with putting decs (or kill rights) on individuals is simply too great and its effect is all too predictable.

If you want to kill something, get your ass to losec/nosec. PvP'ers in hisec are making a paradoxical argument: they want to kill whomever they please, but they don't want non-consensual PvP from anyone else. Choose one or the other; you're either for non-consensual PvP for all or for none.


Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#25 - 2012-01-18 00:46:23 UTC
Idea:

The warring corp starts an alt service alliance that offers to shield corps from their war decs for a fee. Say 5 mil. You pay the alliance 5 mil and they shield you from your war. No corp hoping you just get in and then get out. No war.

While at the same time they continue to dec people and make 3 mil for every corp that joins their alt alliance to avoid the war dec. And those that don't join the alt alliance are targets. Seems like a good business model.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac

Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#26 - 2012-01-18 01:36:59 UTC
Schalac wrote:
Idea:

The warring corp starts an alt service alliance that offers to shield corps from their war decs for a fee. Say 5 mil. You pay the alliance 5 mil and they shield you from your war. No corp hoping you just get in and then get out. No war.

While at the same time they continue to dec people and make 3 mil for every corp that joins their alt alliance to avoid the war dec. And those that don't join the alt alliance are targets. Seems like a good business model.



I like how you think. Get some startup capitol and get going already :D
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
Cardval Simalia
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-01-18 08:33:28 UTC
War dec discussion is irrelevant. Creating corp and alliance timers and making them 7 days would end 99.9% of war exploits. With a 7 day corp and alliance change timer you would no longer have exploiters jumping around every war dec.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#28 - 2012-01-18 10:04:50 UTC
I always considered members leaving a corp the same as a loss. The lost taxes as a percentage of pre war taxes is a loss. Keeping corp standing for HI Sec pos flexibility was important. Surrender was not an option, mergers were unthinkable too.

Right now we don't have set ways to measure war success on the offense or defense side. I would think any future mechanic would need to include an ingame war dec scorecard that measures parameters like this. Killboard losses are only part of the story.

This stuff really boils down to corporation mechanics as well as war mechanics. We need more tools to measure and manage parameters like thiese and we also need to come up with more that we kinda agree upon or we'll end up with another bad system. I think Indy guys need the corp interface more than a pvp corp and the corp guys need to share where the bad man is touching us :)

This problem is deeper than the surface we see.
Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#29 - 2012-01-18 11:08:53 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
I also think you should not be able to insta-join corp or insta-leave in a war. There should be a 24hr timer each way. This will hurt Skunkworks and Moar Tears and so on, but really, if there's 24hr timer for a corp why not the individuals in the corp? If someone's going to join a mail should go out to his would-be foes to warm them a new participant is joining the war. This will solve a huge part of the problem, IMO


Agreed ... before you know it, you lock a monk who just dropped corp Twisted

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

Sahara Uhuru
#30 - 2012-01-18 12:01:35 UTC
From a Carebear Point of view,
why should you do corp hopping when you can just pay some competent mercs to kick your deccer's arse?


They dec you and demand isk to stop the war, you give isk to mercs and the mercs give you killmails.
Arrow you pay isk to get tears

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#31 - 2012-01-18 12:19:49 UTC
I just wanted to point out to the OP, that hoping in an out of a Dec Shield isn't free. Those cost 1Billion isk to set up.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Fairhand
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-01-18 12:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Fairhand
One idea that I will throw in for consideration... Anti-WarDec Insurance.

CEO pays an isk premium to an NPC Agency to put a multiplier on the cost of any (potential) incoming wardecs during the period of insurance.

The insurance would need to be purchased in advance, the deccer would not know what insurance (if any) was in place prior to making a dec vote and the insurance would be consumed in the event of a dec that was successfully activated against the corp.

There might be the cheap "bronze" 2x multiplier, the premium "gold" 8x and so on. This would represent hiring expensive lawyers in advance to make waging war more expensive for the deccer - tidying up stray munitions, paying for recovery costs of wreckage and biomass, environmental protection and so on.

An idea worth throwing into the mix or just a nuisance?
Fighter26
Orion's Fist
#33 - 2012-01-18 16:39:45 UTC
Get out of high sec broskis.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#34 - 2012-01-19 00:40:50 UTC
Fairhand wrote:
One idea that I will throw in for consideration... Anti-WarDec Insurance.

An idea worth throwing into the mix or just a nuisance?


I can't see anything wrong with this concept. If you want to sit in hisec and be free of war, either you pay for your own mercs, or you stump up to make the cost of deccing you more expensive. This will not deter everyone, and nor should it, but would up the price and deter casual fishing expeditions.
Kagan Storm
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-01-21 10:42:52 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:


There is no reason for anyone to be in a corp in highsec. There is no advantage of it.


You are blind

Psychotic Monk wrote:

The only thing of even marginal utility is the corp hanger system, which can be handled on the fly with contracts. Even if a corp has a POS up, it's most likely just a hobby-garden, and if it's actually being used, one or two well skilled industry toons can use it to full capacity, meaning it need not be a corp thing so much as a side project for an individual that requires there be a corp in order for it to be put up.


Orca hangar cannot be used if not in corp.
Rather hard to contract stuff that is in a can in space
seriously WFT? you hit your head to many times?

Psychotic Monk wrote:

Consequently, there's absolutely no reason other than pride or ignorance that someone shouldn't be willing to drop corp the instant it's a disadvantage to be in one. I know for Skunks, for instance, the actual corp only exists as a platform for wardecs. We don't need it. All of the actual corp goings-on are discussed in player made channels and Teamspeak. If the actual corp of Skunkworks disappeared in a horrific gardening accident, we would mourn the loss of a badass name and otherwise continue on without missing a step.


You are a mushroom. Dident you notice all MMOs intaled latley a ton of fun things you can use so you DONT have to use TS, forum, dark rooms and so forth all as means of bringing game stuff back into a game and not making a game end event of a long forum troling darkroom backdoor bandid claok and dagger whatever...

Psychotic Monk wrote:

I don't have a proposal for a solution yet, but I'm giving it some serious thought, and CCP should be doing the same.
(Monk for CSM)


You fail at thinking please stop it.

My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range.

magic preacher
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2012-01-21 11:43:11 UTC
De Guillaume wrote:
does anyone actually offer an alliance service where they join and leave for a cost ;p sounds like a sound business plan.


we will offer this service to any corp that is war decced by another corp or alliance, for a reasonable price
we are not free
but what you are paying for is our merc services, while saving the cost of us war deccing your aggressor,a cost that would normally be passed on to you.
Any payment made to us is a one time payment
once you have left our alliance, you will be re-admitted for free in event you are war decced again by the same corp/alliance
please mail me in game with the name of your aggressor

link to KB
http://concentratedevil.griefwatch.net/?p=campaigns

BrokenBC
no tax's are us
#37 - 2012-01-22 03:51:46 UTC
I used to be into high sec war decing.But then I took a null sec to the knee. Lol
Gabba Cyno
#38 - 2012-01-22 20:07:49 UTC
You guys complain about war decs being avoided but what about the neutral kestrel that will web/scram your freighter/JF and then log on their war target mains and scan you down and kill you? OMG Exploit!!!

.

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-01-22 21:55:58 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Its not an expoit just a way to laugh at bad high sec pvpers to **** to jump into proper pvp in low sec.

If you want pvp go fight someone that actually plays eve for pvp. High sec isn't that place, Dec shields are not a problem.



You should be declared KOS.
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