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WH Ship (exploration and some combat)

Author
Richard Law
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-09-27 15:43:53 UTC
Hi everyone!

I recently started Eve and decided to do exploration. My current ship is the Heron with some standard fits. Now I have some free ISK and am thinking of jumping the current ship and getting a better one.

I'm interested in doing lowsec exploration and be able to fend off an occasional party of Awakened, protecting their data sites.

In another thread I was advised to get an Astero. I can afford it, although I still have to train covert cloak skills. Also I was thinking about a Buzzard as a step above the Heron, but it hardly can take heat (and it has zero space for drones). Astero looks like a nice choice, combining exploration bonuses with some firepower.

The above are my thoughts as a noob. I'd appreciate you experienced pilots telling me if that's complete bull or not.

Thanks in advance!
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#2 - 2016-09-27 15:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Persephone Alleile
Well you're not gonna find any rats in data or relic sites in lowsec for the most part, so Buzzard should be fine. I do all of my exploration in a Buzzard, the only sites I can't handle with it are sleeper data and relic sites which you only find in wormhole space.

For Sleeper data or relic sites you'll probably need something like a Stratios or a t3 cruiser, but honestly those sites aren't really as worthwhile as the pirate faction sites which are unguarded.
Richard Law
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-09-27 17:22:04 UTC
Persephone Alleile wrote:
Well you're not gonna find any rats in data or relic sites in lowsec for the most part, so Buzzard should be fine. I do all of my exploration in a Buzzard, the only sites I can't handle with it are sleeper data and relic sites which you only find in wormhole space.

For Sleeper data or relic sites you'll probably need something like a Stratios or a t3 cruiser, but honestly those sites aren't really as worthwhile as the pirate faction sites which are unguarded.


Oh my bad. I'm still bad with the game terms. I meant WH space, with its Sleepers' guarded Relic and Data sites. I believe the Astero might at least take a chance, Buzzard has no offensive capability since there're no drones :(

Buuuut Buzzards are cheaper....
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#4 - 2016-09-27 17:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Richard Law wrote:
Oh my bad. I'm still bad with the game terms. I meant WH space, with its Sleepers' guarded Relic and Data sites. I believe the Astero might at least take a chance, Buzzard has no offensive capability since there're no drones :(

Buuuut Buzzards are cheaper....


An astero will not be able to handle the rats in WH sleeper sites. C1/C2 sites could be done in a battlecruiser. C3 and higher you will need a group of people, or a rattlesnake, tengu, etc.

I used a drake for C1/C2 sites, then a rattlesnake for C3, above that I always did them in fleets.

For WH data/relic sites you bring a combat ship in, clear it out, then a salvager in to get the wrecks, then maybe hack the cans. Honestly the loot/salvage from the sleepers guarding the site are more valuable than what you get hacking the cans themselves.
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#5 - 2016-09-27 18:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Persephone Alleile
In my experience once you clear out the rats in a data/relic site in w-space the cans despawn after you warp off (not sure how long after), so if you want to do the site solo you need to use the same ship for combat and hacking, otherwise you need a partner to hang out on grid while you reship after killing the rats.

You might be able to clear C1 sites with an Astero, but it would need a very tanky fit (if you can find a wormhole with the wolf-rayet effect that would make things a little easier)
Richard Law
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-09-27 19:54:39 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:


I used a drake for C1/C2 sites, then a rattlesnake for C3, above that I always did them in fleets.

For WH data/relic sites you bring a combat ship in, clear it out, then a salvager in to get the wrecks, then maybe hack the cans. Honestly the loot/salvage from the sleepers guarding the site are more valuable than what you get hacking the cans themselves.


So did you use the Drake as an exploration ship too? Hmmm, looks like it's not that much expensive and I almost ready to fly it. I'll definitely consider your advice, thanks!

Quote:
You might be able to clear C1 sites with an Astero, but it would need a very tanky fit (if you can find a wormhole with the wolf-rayet effect that would make things a little easier)

So it's still a maybe, I see. Well, damn. That SoE ship is a beauty v_v
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7 - 2016-09-27 20:19:12 UTC
Richard Law wrote:
So did you use the Drake as an exploration ship too? Hmmm, looks like it's not that much expensive and I almost ready to fly it. I'll definitely consider your advice, thanks!


When I was doing things solo in WHs, I had three accounts going at the same time. One account did nothing but scan, one was combat, and one did salvaging/additional combat/additional scouting/etc.

Joining a WH corp is a good idea if you're serious about it. A handful of people clear the sites, and an alt trails behind salvaging/looting/etc. A good all around ship that could handle lower level sites as well as scan/hack is a stratios.

It's also not out of the question to use a pure combat ship, carry a mobile depot and refit in the field for scanning/etc.
Petranese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-09-27 21:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Petranese
If you want to go for sleeper sites in wormholes, i'd advise against it. It's not exploration... Sure, they're profitable, but most ISK comes from killing and salvaging sleepers, not cans themselves.
Sure, Astero can run C1 sites, Stratios C3 sites, T3 can do C4 sites. But again, it's not "sleepers protecting cans", it's "half-empty cans that happen to be near sleepers".

Now as for ships themselves:
Cov-ops are "bad" for actual exploration. They have the highest scanning bonuses, ability to easily fit Expanded Launchers, covops cloak of course... They certainly have their uses. No arguing about that. For example, im using Helios with full mids of arrays and scanning rigs to scan down WH chains as fast as possible.
As for individual Covops, you'll want more mid slots, while low and high slots don't matter much. That means Helios and Buzzard is superior to Anathema and Cheetah. Then you look at stats like agility and fitting room. And when you do, you'll find out Helios is superior to Buzzard, as Buzzard suffers from very anemic PG and outright terrible agility. Heck, Buzzard has 7.5s base align time (5.1s with max skills), even cruisers have better aligns than that. However, it's not worth wasting 9 days or so for another racial frigate which you may not use.

Astero has 12.5% less scan strength and is unable able to use combat probes without fit that cripples it's capabilities.
HOWEVER
Astero is far better for avoiding PVP (agility & speed), can fight back if they get into PVP (actual tank, dps, ECM drones), it can run sleeper CACHES (everything except Superior's archive). It can be used to kill other explorers as they steal your loot.

Stratios... It's weird Astero (but slightly better looking). It has better combat capabilities but worse agility/speed, which is the main reason i wouldn't use it. I'd use it for combat sites over anything else.

T3 are probably the safest and most powerful ships for exploration, however losing one is huge.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#9 - 2016-09-27 23:04:18 UTC
Petranese wrote:
...what you are saying is solid, so I removed it for better reading...


To be a little more specific, the sleeper data and relic sites are the main supply of the tech 3 production bar the salvage from sleeper wrecks.

When you look on your probe scanner window, you can see those green anomalies you can always warp to.

Now most of them are combat in a wormhole unless that hole you found is currently lived in. Anyhow wormholes are split into 6 classes of difficulty of the sleepers you find in the combat anomalies.

The data and relic sites you need to probe are at the next higher wormhole class level, meaning those sleepers are no joke.


Do not underestimate sleepers!

For example, you found yourself a nice class 1 wormhole. The data and relic sites in there (aren't worth the time..) have the difficulty of a class 2 combat anomaly and so on.

The only exception are class 4 wormholes. The data and relic sites are broken for many years and CCP doesn't give a damn and never fixed them, so you may find some unguarded ones.

What they are supposed to have there are 2000dps murder boats that will vaporize most ships of the field before they even get a target lock.
But you can manage with a marauder or a few corp mates.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Wombat65Au Egdald
R I S E
#10 - 2016-09-27 23:54:09 UTC
I don't do any WH exploration, but isn't CCP handing out more Gnosis battlecruisers in November?

https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/celebratory-rewards-coming-for-november-expansion/
This announcement was released 2 weeks ago.

It's not 100% clear to me that every player will get one, the wording in that announcement could be read that some players will be randomly picked to get one.

Thoughts on the Gnosis as a WH exploration ship?
Petranese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-09-28 01:41:35 UTC
Wombat65Au Egdald wrote:
I don't do any WH exploration, but isn't CCP handing out more Gnosis battlecruisers in November?

https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/celebratory-rewards-coming-for-november-expansion/
This announcement was released 2 weeks ago.

It's not 100% clear to me that every player will get one, the wording in that announcement could be read that some players will be randomly picked to get one.

Thoughts on the Gnosis as a WH exploration ship?


Well.. it could certainly do C1/2 sites.
For C3 sites you require like 600 DPS passive tank to solo. Perfect skills full T2 gnosis shows 530 DPS tank, which could be enough to do it if, but then you'll end up with terrible damage output (300 DPS?) which might be just too slow.
Alpha clowns won't have access to perfect skills or T2, so it won't be possible to solo them in Gnosis. There may be sites doable with it, but certainly not all of them.
Richard Law
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2016-09-28 08:34:25 UTC
Petranese wrote:
If you want to go for sleeper sites in wormholes, i'd advise against it. It's not exploration... Sure, they're profitable, but most ISK comes from killing and salvaging sleepers, not cans themselves.
Sure, Astero can run C1 sites, Stratios C3 sites, T3 can do C4 sites. But again, it's not "sleepers protecting cans", it's "half-empty cans that happen to be near sleepers".

T3 are probably the safest and most powerful ships for exploration, however losing one is huge.


Nah, not caches, I won't be able to do them for now. Ordinary Relic and Data in WH, which are sometimes populated with drones (Awakened for example)

I still can't figure out how you evaluate difficulty levels of WHs and Sites, even though I've studied all related articles on EveUni Wiki, darn.
Petranese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2016-09-28 13:03:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Petranese
Richard Law wrote:
Petranese wrote:
If you want to go for sleeper sites in wormholes, i'd advise against it. It's not exploration... Sure, they're profitable, but most ISK comes from killing and salvaging sleepers, not cans themselves.
Sure, Astero can run C1 sites, Stratios C3 sites, T3 can do C4 sites. But again, it's not "sleepers protecting cans", it's "half-empty cans that happen to be near sleepers".

T3 are probably the safest and most powerful ships for exploration, however losing one is huge.


Nah, not caches, I won't be able to do them for now. Ordinary Relic and Data in WH, which are sometimes populated with drones (Awakened for example)

I still can't figure out how you evaluate difficulty levels of WHs and Sites, even though I've studied all related articles on EveUni Wiki, darn.


Youre mistaking Sleeper Caches for WH Sleeper sites.
Sleeper Caches are only in K-space, and there's little combat (few sentries at most) but alot of manual flying and hacking. Loot is sleeper databases and storyline blueprints.
WH sleeper sites contain tons of sleeper ships, relic sites have cans with "ancient relics" (used for T3 BPCs) and data sites with T3 datacores.
You want to do Pirate sites in C1-3 wormholes, and for that is Gnosis just unnecessary large/ill bonused. Sure, it has scanning bonuses and stuff like that, but not hacking (which is very important as you need either T2 analyzers or ship bonused towards hacking). Gnosis is just too big, so you just paint big target on your back. Stick to the T1 explo frigs


As for WH difficulty - when you find a wormhole, select "Show info" on it. It will say things like "leads to dangerous unknown space" etc.
If a wormhole leads to "unknown space" its C1, 2 or 3
"dangerous unknown space" is C4 or 5
"deadly dangerous space" is C6

You can also tell them by color, C6 have red centre, C5 has red-ish centre, C4 has hint of red. C1/2/3 are gray/green or blue. Highsec and lowsec varies depending on destination (gold/yellow/red/blue), null is black/gray
Richard Law
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-09-29 15:43:37 UTC
Petranese wrote:

You want to do Pirate sites in C1-3 wormholes, and for that is Gnosis just unnecessary large/ill bonused. Sure, it has scanning bonuses and stuff like that, but not hacking (which is very important as you need either T2 analyzers or ship bonused towards hacking). Gnosis is just too big, so you just paint big target on your back. Stick to the T1 explo frigs



Thank you, Petranese, it's much clearer now!

I assume Gnosis is the one that is to be issued by the CCP under some kind of a special offer. What about Astero, then? Has good bonuses and can fit a covert cloak (expensive, I know, but I can afford one... For now.)
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#15 - 2016-09-29 15:59:11 UTC
Richard Law wrote:
Nah, not caches, I won't be able to do them for now. Ordinary Relic and Data in WH, which are sometimes populated with drones (Awakened for example)

I still can't figure out how you evaluate difficulty levels of WHs and Sites, even though I've studied all related articles on EveUni Wiki, darn.


Read this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17cNu8hxqJKqkkPnhDlIuJY-IT6ps7kTNCd3BEz0Bvqs/pubhtml#
Petranese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2016-09-29 17:05:46 UTC
Richard Law wrote:

Thank you, Petranese, it's much clearer now!

I assume Gnosis is the one that is to be issued by the CCP under some kind of a special offer. What about Astero, then? Has good bonuses and can fit a covert cloak (expensive, I know, but I can afford one... For now.)


Astero is THE BEST hull to use for exploring in hostile space. It's extremely versatile ship, fast, agile, tanky, with cloak and exploration bonuses. Its able to field full flight of light drones, it has the toughest drones of all frigs, can carry 3 sets of them.

It's basically immune to stealth bombers and able to run from anything else. Heck, it can even fight dictors!
It's 50m per hull, but it would be worth it even if it was 150m per hull.
Richard Law
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-09-29 19:06:34 UTC
Petranese wrote:
Richard Law wrote:

Thank you, Petranese, it's much clearer now!

I assume Gnosis is the one that is to be issued by the CCP under some kind of a special offer. What about Astero, then? Has good bonuses and can fit a covert cloak (expensive, I know, but I can afford one... For now.)


Astero is THE BEST hull to use for exploring in hostile space. It's extremely versatile ship, fast, agile, tanky, with cloak and exploration bonuses. Its able to field full flight of light drones, it has the toughest drones of all frigs, can carry 3 sets of them.

It's basically immune to stealth bombers and able to run from anything else. Heck, it can even fight dictors!
It's 50m per hull, but it would be worth it even if it was 150m per hull.

Thanks again, that's basically the words I needed.

For 150 there's Stratios, basically a tougher Astero as I understood, no?
Petranese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2016-09-29 19:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Petranese
Richard Law wrote:

Thanks again, that's basically the words I needed.

For 150 there's Stratios, basically a tougher Astero as I understood, no?


Stratios is tougher, packs more punch. However it requires more SP and more importantly, Stratios is much less agile and slower.

Astero can warp in less than 2s, so locking him on gate is very hard if not impossible even without cloak. If you get into bubble you can overheat MWD which puts you at 5km/s or so.

Stratios can't do this. Its still fast and agile cruiser, but not nearly as much as Astero. That makes Stratios more of "combat ship with scanning bonuses" than "exploration ship". It's similar to Nestor and Gnosis

Agility and speed is very important in hostile space. For example, T3 has 5s sensor recalibration, that means it can't initiate targeting for 5 seconds after dropping cloak. Locking Stratios could last like 2s...
So if Stratios aligns in 5s, it will escape as T3 requires 7s to apply tackle.
However, this requires perfect response time by Stratios player. Even if Stratios does everything right, T3 can bump him and delay his warp by 3-4 seconds, which means dead Stratios.

Now, Astero warps in 2s, and it takes 4s instead of 2s to lock it. Bumping Astero with T3 is almost impossible, so Astero has 7s to react and gtfo.

That means you'll have more than three times as much response time to flee than in Stratios... and that's pretty huge

One more thing: there's no " natural predator" for Astero. It can easily run from anything larger than itself, fight most frigs/dessies and survive long enough for ECM drones to work against anything else
Diedz Krootas
Greater and Better corp inc.
#19 - 2016-10-05 08:35:56 UTC
Hi, I run some C3 combat sites in my snake and I tried to clear some "unsecured" Lol data and relic sites. But after I returned with my scout to hack them I found out that they are all most worthless (few millions at most). So was I out of luck or can I do not bother hacking them and grab just blue loot and salvage?
Brown Pathfinder
Black Spot on Parchment
#20 - 2016-10-06 13:13:17 UTC
Diedz Krootas wrote:
Hi, I run some C3 combat sites in my snake and I tried to clear some "unsecured" Lol data and relic sites. But after I returned with my scout to hack them I found out that they are all most worthless (few millions at most). So was I out of luck or can I do not bother hacking them and grab just blue loot and salvage?


The hacking sites guarded by sleepers are most often not worth as much as the normal pirate hacking sites.
Unless you are into the indy side of researching and producing t3ds or t3cs or got a ocd for un opened containers Smile
The best isk in the blue loot and little in the salvage.
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