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This whole training alts thing...

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Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#21 - 2016-09-27 16:17:10 UTC
Hesod Adee wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
Hesod Adee wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
I am seriously getting turned off from playing EVE at all cause I sure as heck do not want to pay
for 3 accounts just to be allowed to train my alts. No, then I rather go back to somewhere where they do not
charge you a whole new game just to allow you to use alts.


No MMO lets you train multiple characters simultaneously unless you have multiple accounts. Why should Eve be any different ?


really?
I play many MMO's that alts do not share any cd's betweeen them at all.
Its not like , lets say wow (since everyone knows that) the JC that just crushed a gem and has a 3 days cd, that the alts also have 3 day cd's. an alt is totally separate and you got to train your skills from ground up in that game as well. and they still do not share cd's. so...why does eve?


Does your character get any better during the cooldown ?

If not, cooldowns aren't the training. They are the gaps between when you are allowed to train.



No they do not... let us take legendary items, for example the legendary axe in wow, it took 3 months with the amount of cd's (lockouts from raids etc) and the necessity of waiting during that time for the next oportunity to gather the materials necessary.
So that slot in the gear was NOT improved until all things was gathered, all tasks done etc.

I am the Light in the Darkness....
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#22 - 2016-09-27 16:18:53 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:

1. How many xp points do I earn in wow? I can tell you that I let my cd's run down while playing other alts. that does not need to be stopped just cause I play an alt. and xp (same as you use sp here) is earned by doing the same thing over and over and over again, on alts, you still have to level from 1-110 and with each profession you have to train them upwards, individually.


I like how you've moved the goalposts from SPs to "cooldowns". Answer the question I asked, don't turn it into a different question that you prefer because the one I asked was inconvenient for your whiny argument.

Quote:
2. None of your reasonings have proven to be any reason at all to prevent a person from having a totally separate alt. That alt still needs to train the sp to get to that point. that alt still needs to spend the same amount of Zil to buy all the ship, riggs etc. It is not like you get some bonus for having the main and alt connected to each other.


You understand that we literally buy and sell skillpoints from each other, right? And that you're basically saying, "Destroy that entire aspect of the economy because I'm an entitled little twit and merely wanting something means I deserve it."


I am saying create a way to TOTALLY have alts separate but only connecting thing is the account.
It can't be done you say? Oh yes it can, it is a matter of simply coding that you can not send/sell/trade anything to your alt.
Then it is totally separated.

I am the Light in the Darkness....
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-09-27 16:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:

1. How many xp points do I earn in wow? I can tell you that I let my cd's run down while playing other alts. that does not need to be stopped just cause I play an alt. and xp (same as you use sp here) is earned by doing the same thing over and over and over again, on alts, you still have to level from 1-110 and with each profession you have to train them upwards, individually.


I like how you've moved the goalposts from SPs to "cooldowns". Answer the question I asked, don't turn it into a different question that you prefer because the one I asked was inconvenient for your whiny argument.

Quote:
2. None of your reasonings have proven to be any reason at all to prevent a person from having a totally separate alt. That alt still needs to train the sp to get to that point. that alt still needs to spend the same amount of Zil to buy all the ship, riggs etc. It is not like you get some bonus for having the main and alt connected to each other.


You understand that we literally buy and sell skillpoints from each other, right? And that you're basically saying, "Destroy that entire aspect of the economy because I'm an entitled little twit and merely wanting something means I deserve it."


I am saying create a way to TOTALLY have alts separate but only connecting thing is the account.
It can't be done you say? Oh yes it can, it is a matter of simply coding that you can not send/sell/trade anything to your alt.
Then it is totally separated.


Like I said before, your understanding of Eve, particularly with respect to the market, is so incomplete that you're fundamentally incapable of grasping why there is absolutely no chance of this happening. There is no "separate" anything on TQ. You can sell nearly anything you have to another player, either via the market or contract.

If you want an isolated alt, go train on Singularity.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#24 - 2016-09-27 16:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:

1. How many xp points do I earn in wow? I can tell you that I let my cd's run down while playing other alts. that does not need to be stopped just cause I play an alt. and xp (same as you use sp here) is earned by doing the same thing over and over and over again, on alts, you still have to level from 1-110 and with each profession you have to train them upwards, individually.


I like how you've moved the goalposts from SPs to "cooldowns". Answer the question I asked, don't turn it into a different question that you prefer because the one I asked was inconvenient for your whiny argument.

Quote:
2. None of your reasonings have proven to be any reason at all to prevent a person from having a totally separate alt. That alt still needs to train the sp to get to that point. that alt still needs to spend the same amount of Zil to buy all the ship, riggs etc. It is not like you get some bonus for having the main and alt connected to each other.


You understand that we literally buy and sell skillpoints from each other, right? And that you're basically saying, "Destroy that entire aspect of the economy because I'm an entitled little twit and merely wanting something means I deserve it."


I am saying create a way to TOTALLY have alts separate but only connecting thing is the account.
It can't be done you say? Oh yes it can, it is a matter of simply coding that you can not send/sell/trade anything to your alt.
Then it is totally separated.


Like I said before, your understanding of Eve, particularly with respect to the market, is so incomplete that you're fundamentally incapable of grasping why there is absolutely no chance of this happening.

If you want an isolated alt, go train on Singularity.


Yeah thank you, your response was so very overwhelmingly helpful
This is what expected for EVE community. Thank you.

I am the Light in the Darkness....
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-09-27 16:41:20 UTC
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:


Yeah thank you, your response was so very overwhelmingly helpful
This is what expected for EVE community. Thank you.


How much effort do you expect anyone to really expend on some Dunning-Kruger posterchild who has exhibited no effort to understand any of the underlying issues that numerous people have pointed out?

Literally nobody has agreed with you so far, yet you persist without hesitation.

Let's focus in on a particular point of ignorance:

Quote:
I am saying create a way to TOTALLY have alts separate but only connecting thing is the account.
It can't be done you say? Oh yes it can, it is a matter of simply coding that you can not send/sell/trade anything to your alt.
Then it is totally separated.


Explain how you will magically code around the following scenarios:

Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts. Bob extracts that SP and puts it in his corp hangar, where it is retrieved by his main.
Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts. Bob extracts that SP and puts the resulting injectors for sale on the open market. Bob uses the money resulting from the sales to buy injectors from Alice, who is doing the same thing.
Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts on two separate accounts. Bob extracts the XP, passing the resulting injectors between accounts.

All of these things are doable now, of course, but there is also a cost associated with doing so, providing balance. You're basically saying, "Yeah, just destroy that entirely because IWANTIWANTIWANT."

Short of literally locking those characters out of most of the mechanics in the game, there is no TOTALLY SEPARATE anything in Eve. It doesn't work that way. There's no "soulbound" items here. Everything is a commodity to be traded.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Hallvardr
#26 - 2016-09-27 16:52:59 UTC
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh - let me make this easier for you to understand. No troll, you can't have that. Now sit down and shut up. Gezz
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#27 - 2016-09-27 17:01:53 UTC
How much effort do you expect anyone to really expend on some Dunning-Kruger posterchild who has exhibited no effort to understand any of the underlying issues that numerous people have pointed out?

Literally nobody has agreed with you so far, yet you persist without hesitation.

Let's focus in on a particular point of ignorance:

this...just made my mind up and I cancelled my subscription
thank you for being such a good representative of the EVE community.

I am the Light in the Darkness....
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#28 - 2016-09-27 17:05:34 UTC
I am fed up with your superior attitude.
I a new, and I said so from the start
and this is the way you adress those thats new, then I truly hope for EVE sake that you will be there for many years to come because I seriously doubt there will be many new people who want to participate in a community filled with such ego's.
I said my opinion and I stand by it, an alt is and alt and should be seprated from the main.
if you don't like that then there is an old saying, an opinion is like an ass, and in your case I would say it is is the brown nose of that ass that sticks in your face.

I am the Light in the Darkness....
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#29 - 2016-09-27 17:11:53 UTC
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
I am fed up with your superior attitude.
I a new, and I said so from the start


Being "new" affords you only a very finite amount of consideration, guy. You want to ask questions because you're new, fine.

When people who aren't new explain, in detail, why your thoughts, issued from the perspective of one who is new, are erroneous, and you then refuse to assimilate that information into your perspective, that consideration terminates pretty abruptly.



Quote:
I said my opinion and I stand by it, an alt is and alt and should be seprated from the main.


The notion of "separate" is antithetical to the entire game. It doesn't exist here. Nothing is separate. It is a single-shard game with a player-driven economy. If you want to "opt out" of any aspect of that, your sole option is the test server. They're not going to fundamentally alter the fabric of the game for the sake of some new player who can't be arsed to understand that Eve is an economic sim as much as a spaceship one.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#30 - 2016-09-27 17:16:40 UTC
Explain how you will magically code around the following scenarios:

Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts. Bob extracts that SP and puts it in his corp hangar, where it is retrieved by his main.
Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts. Bob extracts that SP and puts the resulting injectors for sale on the open market. Bob uses the money resulting from the sales to buy injectors from Alice, who is doing the same thing.
Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts on two separate accounts. Bob extracts the XP, passing the resulting injectors between accounts.

All of these things are doable now, of course, but there is also a cost associated with doing so, providing balance. You're basically saying, "Yeah, just destroy that entirely because IWANTIWANTIWANT."

Short of literally locking those characters out of most of the mechanics in the game, there is no TOTALLY SEPARATE anything in Eve. It doesn't work that way. There's no "soulbound" items here. Everything is a commodity to be traded.

simply put... Look at how Blizzard done auctionhouse both real and blackmarket.
You can not bid on your own items with alts
you can not buy your own items as alts.
take that a step further....

Tag everything you said with a simply nametag, then put a checker on the code saying something like if the nametag matches names on your own account then you are ineligable to purchase or interact with any items with the tag from any of your own alts.
It can be done. It is done so in many other MMO's, or are you saying that CCP coders are not as capable as those of WoW?

I am the Light in the Darkness....
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#31 - 2016-09-27 17:18:56 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
I am fed up with your superior attitude.
I a new, and I said so from the start


Being "new" affords you only a very finite amount of consideration, guy. You want to ask questions because you're new, fine.

When people who aren't new explain, in detail, why your thoughts, issued from the perspective of one who is new, are erroneous, and you then refuse to assimilate that information into your perspective, that consideration terminates pretty abruptly.



Quote:
I said my opinion and I stand by it, an alt is and alt and should be seprated from the main.


The notion of "separate" is antithetical to the entire game. It doesn't exist here. Nothing is separate. It is a single-shard game with a player-driven economy. If you want to "opt out" of any aspect of that, your sole option is the test server. They're not going to fundamentally alter the fabric of the game for the sake of some new player who can't be arsed to understand that Eve is an economic sim as much as a spaceship one.



Now your saying something true... and this is what shoudl said from the start. Instead of insunating I am a moron and incapable etc... all you would have to say was these few things...

It doesn't exist here.

Thats all... and say This is EVE, like ot or get out... thats all. No amount of reasoning or trying to say I want it all or wreck the game. Those simple words would sufficed.

I am the Light in the Darkness....
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-09-27 17:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
Explain how you will magically code around the following scenarios:

Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts. Bob extracts that SP and puts it in his corp hangar, where it is retrieved by his main.
Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts. Bob extracts that SP and puts the resulting injectors for sale on the open market. Bob uses the money resulting from the sales to buy injectors from Alice, who is doing the same thing.
Bob makes 2700 sp/hr alts on two separate accounts. Bob extracts the XP, passing the resulting injectors between accounts.

All of these things are doable now, of course, but there is also a cost associated with doing so, providing balance. You're basically saying, "Yeah, just destroy that entirely because IWANTIWANTIWANT."

Short of literally locking those characters out of most of the mechanics in the game, there is no TOTALLY SEPARATE anything in Eve. It doesn't work that way. There's no "soulbound" items here. Everything is a commodity to be traded.

simply put... Look at how Blizzard done auctionhouse both real and blackmarket.
You can not bid on your own items with alts
you can not buy your own items as alts.
take that a step further....

Tag everything you said with a simply nametag, then put a checker on the code saying something like if the nametag matches names on your own account then you are ineligable to purchase or interact with any items with the tag from any of your own alts.
It can be done. It is done so in many other MMO's, or are you saying that CCP coders are not as capable as those of WoW?


What you just suggested does not prevent Bob exchanging items between accounts, nor Bob merely putting his items for sale on the open market, and buying the same type of item from others.

Furthermore, it ignores the fact that "bound" items are antithetical to the design concept of Eve, where everything is a commodity to be traded.


So, you have failed to provide a working solution to the problems that would be created by catering to your whims.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#33 - 2016-09-27 17:25:16 UTC
It is an idea, the basic priciple is that anything related to one character is unavaikable to all other characters on that account.

I am the Light in the Darkness....
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-09-27 17:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
It is an idea, the basic priciple is that anything related to one character is unavaikable to all other characters on that account.



And the basic principle is impossible to implement in a way that isn't trivial to sidestep through either multiple accounts, or simple cooperation between players.

Bob (main) trains BobA. BobA extracts his SP, and contracts it to the main on his other account, Alice.

Meanwhile, AliceA does the same thing, contracting the resulting injector to Bob.

Your tagging system has now added a disgusting amount of database overhead while completely failing to solve the problem.

That's not even the ONLY problem with this nonsense - just the most easily illustrated.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#35 - 2016-09-27 17:32:09 UTC
Posting in Raging Insanity thread #42069.

OP, If you don't want to train a second character, buy one from the character bazaar.

What do you gain from having an alt that is completly separate from your main?
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#36 - 2016-09-27 17:32:33 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
It is an idea, the basic priciple is that anything related to one character is unavaikable to all other characters on that account.



And the basic principle is impossible to implement in a way that isn't trivial to sidestep through either multiple accounts, or simple cooperation between players.

Bob (main) trains BobA. BobA extracts his SP, and contracts it to the main on his other account, Alice.

Meanwhile, AliceA does the same thing, contracting the resulting injector to Bob.

Your tagging system has now added a disgusting amount of database overhead while completely failing to solve the problem.

That's not even the ONLY problem with this nonsense - just the most easily illustrated.


ahh but there you have it....
IF you want to sidestep it THEN you do need to buy an account extra. THEN you chose the extra cost.
at least you have a choise then, no?

I am the Light in the Darkness....
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#37 - 2016-09-27 17:33:49 UTC
either way, we will never agree on this and I am done bickering, I have an opinion, might be bad in your eyes, but then we have what 11 billion ppl on this planet, if we all thought alike it would be boring...no?

I am the Light in the Darkness....
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#38 - 2016-09-27 17:36:54 UTC
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
either way, we will never agree on this and I am done bickering, I have an opinion, might be bad in your eyes, but then we have what 11 billion ppl on this planet, if we all thought alike it would be boring...no?


Why do you want an alt in the first place? You have alts in other MMOs because you're locked into a class, and you might want to play something different.

Every character in EVE can train any skill in the game. There are no restrictions. What's the point of the alt you want to start?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#39 - 2016-09-27 17:39:11 UTC
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:

ahh but there you have it....
IF you want to sidestep it THEN you do need to buy an account extra. THEN you chose the extra cost.
at least you have a choise then, no?


No, all I need is a friend, actually. Alice and Bob can just as easily be two separate single-account players and it's still just as broken.

Also, as I noted already, that's not even the only problem - just the one most easily described via Crayola to a player with limited understanding of the rest of the game mechanics.





"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh
Miners Trade Company
#40 - 2016-09-27 17:42:11 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Jotunhammer Al'Vargh wrote:
either way, we will never agree on this and I am done bickering, I have an opinion, might be bad in your eyes, but then we have what 11 billion ppl on this planet, if we all thought alike it would be boring...no?


Why do you want an alt in the first place? You have alts in other MMOs because you're locked into a class, and you might want to play something different.

Every character in EVE can train any skill in the game. There are no restrictions. What's the point of the alt you want to start?


Originally cause I wanted a female and a male character, and go from 2 different ways, PvP and the other go concentrate on mining.

I am the Light in the Darkness....