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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Some questions/issues coming from a new player

First post
Author
Nabu Nezzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2016-09-25 20:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nabu Nezzar
Over the years, I've played several MMOs and this is my first subscription-based one (and the main reason I'm looking into this game).

What I've noticed after playing over the weekend:

1. Left (instead of right) mouse-button changes the angle at which you look at your ship...that's really unintuitive. You don't need the right mouse-button at all and whenever you want to change the angle to look around you and you accidentally click on a station/object/whatever in the far distance, the ring menu opens and you might click on something which you don't want. That has already happened multiple times to me.
In the solar system map and the 3D map (which isn't good by the way), it's the same. Left click changed the angle, right click moves around. This stands contrary to the last 15 years of gaming and is definitely weird for new players, trying out the game.
1.1 Regarding the map: The beta map doesn't seem good and that's because it's 3D which is pointless for a map unless there is a reason why it should be that way (I haven't seen one in the game so far). It also centers around some random point, whenever you open it. What's good about it is that it highlights the direct connections and the security. From my newbie point of view, those two features paired with the 2D map would make it perfect.

2. Auto-Stacking: Why is this not a thing? Repackaging is tedious but probably fine (I don't yet know why you need to do this) but auto-stacking should always be a thing. I know, you can right click and then select "stack all". Sure, that works...but it takes forever if you count all the times you have to do it. In my short playtime so far, I had to do it a lot (thanks to missions and ship switching and dumping the loot into the station) and that's already too much. It can be considered a "quality of life"-kind of thing but it's been an industry standard for so long by now. And if you want to divide a stack, that's always easy to do (and happens way less often than stacking all) and it's probably already implemented (didn't have the need for it so far).

3. Tab-targeting isn't a thing, right? At least it hasn't worked for me. When 10 different ships attack me in a mission and I need to act fast, switching through the targets via tab (nearest to furthest away) and pressing "strg/ctrl" to lock onto them is essential. Manually clicking onto them is a pain, especially when they have locked onto you and you can't see who you locked onto since there are a bunch of symbols crammed into that little space.

4. There is no shortcut for open loot, is there? That would help a lot.

5. Instead of making the symbols bigger on the left side, why not add their functionality when you increase the size of the bar by moving it right? That would help newer players out.

6. Link to forum? I read a mail that I got, wanted to go back to the forum, but there is no link...unless I'm blind. There should be a button, like right here:
click here since embedding doesn't seem to be a thing

6.1 The forum seems gigantic and kinda hard to see through for a new player. "Intergalactic Summit" and "Corporation, Alliance & Organization Discussions" seem kinda the same...except that the latter part is somewhat dead. From what I've read there, some people use reddit and such...well, there are always ways to get people to use a game's forums instead *wink*


Regardless of that, so far I've had fun. Though, it's hard to find help in the game at times since there are too many people in the help chat and thus nobody answers you (or they just don't do it because they don't want to bother with some questions).
Are there general chat channel by the way, as in, one for series/movies and such? That would be interesting and better than just the corporation, help, language and the few I've seen mentioned in the forum ones.


/edit: Something I forgot:

7. Why is grouping the weapons so random? I had four of the same kind and two of the same kind. It ended up being F4 and F5. After that, I added a third kind and it switched to groups being F3, F6 and F7 to activate. Why can't it just be F1, F2 and F3?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#2 - 2016-09-25 20:51:19 UTC
You can press Ctrl and then click the targets you want on the overview.
Nabu Nezzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-09-25 20:54:05 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
You can press Ctrl and then click the targets you want on the overview.

That's what I mean when I say "strg". So I'm doing that (well, clicking the targets and then pressing strg/ctrl).
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#4 - 2016-09-25 21:20:52 UTC
1) forget most of what you know from other MMOs, this one is different.

1.Right click is the single most effective way to figure out anything in eve, if in doubt, right click.

1.1 3d map helps with spacial awareness, it's also got functionality with jump drives in that their range is displayed as a sphere.
It's still a bit jarring and busy at times but I think the old map is still there and is a little less "spangly" and hip.
It's more utilitarian and I know a lot of the vet's prefer it.

2. there are many and varied reasons as to why automatically stacking wouldn't be a good thing, distributing loot , ammo , ships and modules for other Corp members use would be first to come to mind.
If it bothers you just Ctrl a all the stuff in the hangar and right click stack all.

3. Ctrl left click will target, yellow box in the overview represents an incoming target lock, there are shortcuts to switching targets but you need to have tjem targeted first.
Again eve is different , forget what you think you know as little of it will apply here.

4.your cargo or a wreck?

5. I'm not sure I get what you mean here

6. There used to be, dunno where it went, think pirates kidnapped it.
Just bookmark the forums like the rest of us.

6.1 Quick forum orientation is in order
Ncq&a (here) is where you want to ask questions, trolling is explicitly forbidden in here .
General discussion is under the proverbial bridge and should be considered effectively weaponised till you get a feel for the community here, you would have been trolled and flamed to hell and back had you posted this in there.

Intergalactic summit is for the role players, I wouldn't role play outside of this forum section of I were you.

Alliance & organization is for smacktalk, eve is quite competitive and the rivalry's get fairly heavy and heated,

Crime and punishment is where you'll find the scum and villainy hanging out (much like myself) this is not roleplay, the lads in there are fairly PvP centric , you can hire mercenaries in there and talk your way into trouble by mouthing off.

Most of the other subs are fairly self-explanatory.
Welcome aboard
o7
Swoop McFly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-09-25 21:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Swoop McFly
1. right click is used all the time

1.1 yes, the map is incredibly bad. Pretty much everyone I know uses http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map

2. You don't always want to have stuff stacked - if it did that automatically it would be pretty annoying. Packaging exists because items can be damaged or (in case of ships) fitted and renamed. Packaging removes any "uniqueness" from them and allows you to stack them.

3. You rarely want to shoot stuff from nearest to furthest. E.g. if you are in a big battleship you don't want to shoot the frigate that is orbiting you at close range, because you can't hit it anyway with your big guns. (you'd use your drones for that and put your guns on a target that is further away)

4. I don't think there is.

5. No idea what you meant with that.

6. You're not blind. It's not there and it annoys me every time I use it. (it used to be there - then the forums got redesigned and it went away)

6.1. Idk. I mostly use reddit. The official forums are pretty awful.

7. No one knows. You can drag them to whatever position you want them in though.
Nabu Nezzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-09-25 22:02:21 UTC
I should have also prefaced it with mentioning that a GM asked me after a few hours of play what I think about the game/UI and I couldn't answer much at that point. So this in part is also a response to that question (albeit in the forum).

@Ralph King-Griffin

1. Yep, that works fine...but the camera and map control...ugh. From a new player's perspective, definitely unintuitive and, in the ring menu case, problematic.

1.1 So it will be more useful later? Hm, as long as they don't remove the 2D one which is extremely practical, since you easily see what you want to know (which isn't the case in the 3D one).

2. But wouldn't creating a stack be as simple? If you have 5 rows of metal scrap (as an example) and you have 7 other people who want something, it should be as easy to create a stack. I mean, I don't know how the distribution system works (unless it's all manual), so maybe it is essential? Well, this is from a newbie's perspective after all.
That's what I do and you don't even need to select (that would be even worse) everything before doing that. But you need to click it after looting ships, after transferring all the items to the station, after repackaging weapons and such. When you run missions, you do it a lot since missions take around 10 minutes.

3. Shortcuts wouldn't really work. Ideally, it should be like this (going with the ship I'm currently flying - a destroyer which I got from the tutorial mission):

Ten hostile ships incoming --> tabbing through the targets while ctrling them to lock onto them --> leftclick on them in the upper-right where they are displayed and activate weapons with F1, F2, F3 (which isn't possible since random Fn is selected) --> switch targets with leftclick according to their range and attack them with the appropriate weapon (I have one low-range, six mid-range and one long-range weapon), so most of the time, I'm attacking three different targets with my weapons at the same time --> my mid-range weapons kill an enemy at a level 1 security mission usually in 2-3 bursts, so I would need to tab and ctrl again while using my mouse to manually switch targets to select a new ship for the mid-range weapons (I can currently lock-on to five different ships).
So my mouse is busy at all times and this is why tab-selection is useful - in addition to being a norm in MMOGs.

4. Shipwreck.

5. I actually found a screenshot with it like I mean it (apparently it used to exist?).

https://evenewplayer.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/build4.jpg?w=774


Thank you a lot. I hope these forums stay active and become even more so.


@Swoop McFly

1. Yeah, it's really only about the camera and map control. Otherwise, it's perfectly fine.

1.1 That map looks interesting. Have to look at it in more detail tomorrow.

2. Aha, didn't know that about packaging yet. So far, for me, the stacking is completely the other way around. Maybe later I will see it differently but currently it's really bothersome.

3. Well, tabbing through the targets like that was just an example. It should be possible to say "start from furthest away" and "only select ships from range X to Y".

6.1 Which is a shame. I'm one of the people who prefer forums over reddit or facebook groups (and whatever else).

7. Thanks, good to know that. It already helps a lot.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#7 - 2016-09-25 22:09:28 UTC
yeah you cant cycle through rats like that.

you can target a couple ,how many depends upon what ship you are flying and skills you have trained.
a battleship can target quite a few but in a destroyer this will only be a couple,
you can then cycle through those at will.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Targeting
bookmark that website and have a flick through on the mechanics
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#8 - 2016-09-26 00:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Nabu Nezzar wrote:

1.1 Regarding the map: The beta map doesn't seem good and that's because it's 3D which is pointless for a map unless there is a reason why it should be that way (I haven't seen one in the game so far). It also centers around some random point, whenever you open it. What's good about it is that it highlights the direct connections and the security. From my newbie point of view, those two features paired with the 2D map would make it perfect.


I prefer to have the in-game map in 3d mode always, and use out-of-game 2d maps. The 2d reference add a lot of distortion and it is easier to manipulate in 3d. The starmap centers where you click. So click on a star and that is your new center. I found that a lot of things that were essentially useless became useful later, like constellation view. This gets useful in null, where blocks are usually taken over by constellations. So you can get a rough idea where a block border lies. Also, the direction scan seems pretty useless to a newbie in HS, but it is critical in null. But I agree, from a new player's perspective, you're probably going to want a smaller window of the local area, not a huge megamap that makes you feel lost.

Quote:

2. Auto-Stacking: Why is this not a thing?


Auto-stacking actually does happen. But it only happens with identical items. Unlike other games, not every item is identical. Basically, if an item comes to your inventory from a location where it _might_ not be generic, then it is treated as special. ctrl-shift-a then right-click stack all, but don't feel you have to do it often. Only when you're packing stuff to sell or contract.

3. Tab targeting...

Nope. Eve isn't a fast paced fps or even action mmo, everything in even happens in 1 second ticks. So while speed still matters to an extent, there is no rush to do 4-10 things in a second. Also, eve is a game where eventually, if you get into that aspect, you will be fighting battless with thousands of other players. Tab is effectively useless in larger battles, and the advantage it would give in small fights is much less than other MMOs. You don't choose who to shoot based on distance. You choose who to fight based on the enemy ship's role. Focus fire is really important in groups. Solo, if you're outnumbered, then you should usually be running away not trying to target people. You can click and drag to select something in space, so don't feel you have to click on a fast moving ship. Or you can use the overview. BTW, Unfuck your overview. and SaraShawa Overview pack are almost required reading.

4. Loot shortcut:

Tractor beams, or a bigger propulsion mod. There are MTUs that you can drop that will autoloot for you. They are favorite things for people to blow up and collect tears though. You can fly a noctis. Or do the old school destroyer with 4 tractors and 4 salvagers. When you have some isk under your belt, you'll want to start blitzing missions rather than looting them.


5. Symbols...

I've no clue what you're talking about here.

Quote:

6. Link to forum? I read a mail that I got, wanted to go back to the forum, but there is no link...unless I'm blind. There should be a button, like right here:
click here since embedding doesn't seem to be a thing


Eve forum is liken above where it says, "EVE Forums » EVE Communication Center » EVE New Citizens Q&A" You can right click on the Eve Forums link and save it you wish.

Quote:

6.1 The forum seems gigantic and kinda hard to see through for a new player. "Intergalactic Summit" and "Corporation, Alliance & Organization Discussions" seem kinda the same...except that the latter part is somewhat dead. From what I've read there, some people use reddit and such...well, there are always ways to get people to use a game's forums instead *wink*


Reddit has become a thing in spite of it's inferior format that basically forces me to read an entire thread over and over to figure out where the new posts are. At least here I can scroll to the bottom and be done with a thread quickly. In spite of the naysayers, reddit didn't kill the forums here, they are still alive and well.

TIL that the forum limits quotes. There are tons of chat channels, many are obscure, but you can find anything and everything around. In the regular help just keep asking. Questions get missed because they move too fast, or the person that would answer is busy. You can ask in rookie help, but treat everything said there with a grain of salt.


Quote:

7. Why is grouping the weapons so random? I had four of the same kind and two of the same kind. It ended up being F4 and F5. After that, I added a third kind and it switched to groups being F3, F6 and F7 to activate. Why can't it just be F1, F2 and F3?

I'm pretty sure it is based on how they are dragged together. I drag and drop the weapons on the f key I want them to be. It should save your setup. So if you drag the keys over they should change to f1 and f2.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#9 - 2016-09-26 00:30:27 UTC
^^ should probably listen to this one, she sucks at this waaaaay less than i do.
Zirashi
Cyclical Destruction
#10 - 2016-09-26 10:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zirashi
Nabu Nezzar wrote:
3. Shortcuts wouldn't really work. Ideally, it should be like this (going with the ship I'm currently flying - a destroyer which I got from the tutorial mission):

Ten hostile ships incoming --> tabbing through the targets while ctrling them to lock onto them --> leftclick on them in the upper-right where they are displayed and activate weapons with F1, F2, F3 (which isn't possible since random Fn is selected) --> switch targets with leftclick according to their range and attack them with the appropriate weapon (I have one low-range, six mid-range and one long-range weapon), so most of the time, I'm attacking three different targets with my weapons at the same time --> my mid-range weapons kill an enemy at a level 1 security mission usually in 2-3 bursts, so I would need to tab and ctrl again while using my mouse to manually switch targets to select a new ship for the mid-range weapons (I can currently lock-on to five different ships).
So my mouse is busy at all times and this is why tab-selection is useful - in addition to being a norm in MMOGs.


Ok, so I know you're currently concerned with UI questions, but the text I bolded caught my eye and highlights a very common newbie mistake.

Don't mix weapon ranges.

There are no point defense weapons and there is no one-size-fits-all ship in the game. Seek to maximize and play to your strengths rather than compromising them in an effort to cover up your weakness. You should to pick a range you want to fight at and build around that. If, for example, you're using frigate sized missiles, pick either light missile launchers or rocket launchers, but never both at the same time.

The cousin to this is newbies trying fit every type of tank at the same time (ie don't use shield extenders with armor plates). Some exceptions exist (like the MASB/SAAR Breacher), but is typically best avoided.

Basically, if you try fitting to be able to do everything, you'll end up being able to do nothing.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#11 - 2016-09-26 11:31:20 UTC
You may find some interface issues awkward, but let's say CCP implemented all your changes over night, tomorrow you will see rage posts from thousands of people who have been playing for a decade screaming the new interface (that you proposed) is totally awkward and not intuitive. ;)

I respect your 15 years of gaming experience (although I've been playing for far longer than that myself), and I hope in the same spirit you can respect EVE is what is now after 13 years of player feedback and tweaks.

Certainly there are things that can be improved, and it's good you suggest your ideas and feedback. But this is not a game a new player can come into and say 'what is wrong with eve'. That would be like me walking into your house you've been living in fo 13 years and telling you your home interior and furnitur arrangements are wrong and unintuitive, and goes againt my 30+ years of experince in living in... erm.... Houses, lol.

No offence intended, and kudos for the feedback, and CCP would be happy to hear what new players feel. But there are reaosns for things to be the way they are, albeit with the open acceptance that things can be improved. ;)

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Memphis Baas
#12 - 2016-09-26 11:59:36 UTC
Welcome to the game.

Your suggestions are along the lines of making this game's UI similar to the UI of other MMO's you've played.

While they may have merit, as indicated in the post above, please realize that you're suggesting changes to a game that's been around for 10 years that we've gotten used to. So rather than 250,000 of us be faced with a brand new user interface, how about just the 1 of you get used to the way the game is?

You may change the key bindings in your Settings pannel (press Esc. to access it in game), but typically we set up the Overview list to display the relevant ships or space items in the correct order for the task at hand, and then ctrl- alt- or shift-click from the Overview when we want to target things, approach things, etc. It's a keyboard-and-mouse type of operation.

Also, skills are completely different, they train whether you're logged in or not, and merely unlock access to ships or provide the odd 5% bonus; it's through the accumulation of little bonuses in a lot of places that your character becomes overall much better at doing things.

As a side-effect of everyone being able to train anything, we don't recruit based on needing healers, tanks, or DPS; if any role is needed, the existing corp members can certainly train that role in short order. So we recruit based on personality, trust, and how fun and "chill" you appear to be, and continue to be once you've joined.

Finally, the whole economy is player-based. Players manufacture or loot pretty much everything, and without NPC "vendors" to buy it from us, the PVP serves a very important role of destroying some existing ships so that players feel the need to buy new ones, thus creating a demand. If you're looking for purely PVE, it's possible, but it's not as fleshed out as other MMO's, and you'll get bored pretty fast; on the other hand, the PVP is where the developers have put most of their effort in, and where the fun really is (provided that you're in a GOOD group; it always depends on that).

Enjoy.
Memphis Baas
#13 - 2016-09-26 12:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Also, to expound on the "don't mix weapons" rule, the combat in EVE follows a few of the realistic combat rules in RL:

- always focus fire on one target at a time, to take them out fast and negate the damage they do to you
- always hit the target with everything you've got, don't hold back weapons
- always defend your ship with everything you've got, don't hold back defenses
- if the odds appear to be against you, disengage and warp away

If you have a destroyer, it's better to focus all 7 of its guns on a single target at a time, and if the guns are all exactly the same, then the UI makes it simple by allowing you to group your guns so only 1 button press is needed to activate them all.

Each type of weapon (lasers, projectile weapons, hybrids, missiles) has a long range version and a short range version. You're supposed to decide whether you prefer to stay at long range or short range BEFORE you undock your ship, and you're supposed to fit the ship for the purpose / range that you've chosen.

It is much more effective to fit all 7 guns for long range (or short), then make sure you control the fight and stay at the range by using auxiliary modules (afterburners, microwarpdrives, stasis webifiers), keeping the target in the kill zone that's best for your weapons, than it is to have a slow sluggish ship with 2 guns for long range, 2 guns for med range, and 2 guns for short, where the target can choose to approach you through your various 2-weapon killzones, and hit you with their best weapons.

Similarly for defenses, you have hull, armor, and shields; put all the powergrid and CPU you have available on your ship to work towards making ONE of these defenses the best it can be; pick the armor or the shields, and maximize. You will withstand much more damage than if the enemy were able to eat through half-assed shields, then half-assed armor, and then destroy you.

You don't have full freedom to pick armor or shields, actually, because it depends on the number of available medium slots (for shields) and low slots (for armor) that the ship offers. But even though the presence of medium AND low slots would suggest you can install both shields and armor, the ship only has so much powergrid and CPU, and these two resources restrict the strength of your defenses, which means it's better to focus all the power (and processor) into one.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#14 - 2016-09-26 12:23:33 UTC
Just to add a bit on the interface/intuitive issue... I have been playing with 'inverted Y-Axis' since X-Wing in early 90s (that's even before the popular X-Wing vs Tie Fighter which came later on), and also for Duke Nukem 3D (DOOM and Wolfenstein 3D did not have Y axis).

For some weird reasons though, when it comes to EVE and GTA series, I don't use 'invertd Y-Axis'.

When you try different things, very often you will find that you are more adaptable than you give yourself credit for. ;)

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#15 - 2016-09-26 12:24:52 UTC
Nabu Nezzar wrote:
Over the years, I've played several MMOs and this is my first subscription-based one (and the main reason I'm looking into this game).

What I've noticed after playing over the weekend:

1. Left (instead of right) mouse-button changes the angle at which you look at your ship...that's really unintuitive. You don't need the right mouse-button at all and whenever you want to change the angle to look around you and you accidentally click on a station/object/whatever in the far distance, the ring menu opens and you might click on something which you don't want. That has already happened multiple times to me.
In the solar system map and the 3D map (which isn't good by the way), it's the same. Left click changed the angle, right click moves around. This stands contrary to the last 15 years of gaming and is definitely weird for new players, trying out the game.
1.1 Regarding the map: The beta map doesn't seem good and that's because it's 3D which is pointless for a map unless there is a reason why it should be that way (I haven't seen one in the game so far). It also centers around some random point, whenever you open it. What's good about it is that it highlights the direct connections and the security. From my newbie point of view, those two features paired with the 2D map would make it perfect.

2. Auto-Stacking: Why is this not a thing? Repackaging is tedious but probably fine (I don't yet know why you need to do this) but auto-stacking should always be a thing. I know, you can right click and then select "stack all". Sure, that works...but it takes forever if you count all the times you have to do it. In my short playtime so far, I had to do it a lot (thanks to missions and ship switching and dumping the loot into the station) and that's already too much. It can be considered a "quality of life"-kind of thing but it's been an industry standard for so long by now. And if you want to divide a stack, that's always easy to do (and happens way less often than stacking all) and it's probably already implemented (didn't have the need for it so far).

3. Tab-targeting isn't a thing, right? At least it hasn't worked for me. When 10 different ships attack me in a mission and I need to act fast, switching through the targets via tab (nearest to furthest away) and pressing "strg/ctrl" to lock onto them is essential. Manually clicking onto them is a pain, especially when they have locked onto you and you can't see who you locked onto since there are a bunch of symbols crammed into that little space.

4. There is no shortcut for open loot, is there? That would help a lot.

5. Instead of making the symbols bigger on the left side, why not add their functionality when you increase the size of the bar by moving it right? That would help newer players out.

6. Link to forum? I read a mail that I got, wanted to go back to the forum, but there is no link...unless I'm blind. There should be a button, like right here:
click here since embedding doesn't seem to be a thing

6.1 The forum seems gigantic and kinda hard to see through for a new player. "Intergalactic Summit" and "Corporation, Alliance & Organization Discussions" seem kinda the same...except that the latter part is somewhat dead. From what I've read there, some people use reddit and such...well, there are always ways to get people to use a game's forums instead *wink*


Regardless of that, so far I've had fun. Though, it's hard to find help in the game at times since there are too many people in the help chat and thus nobody answers you (or they just don't do it because they don't want to bother with some questions).
Are there general chat channel by the way, as in, one for series/movies and such? That would be interesting and better than just the corporation, help, language and the few I've seen mentioned in the forum ones.


/edit: Something I forgot:

7. Why is grouping the weapons so random? I had four of the same kind and two of the same kind. It ended up being F4 and F5. After that, I added a third kind and it switched to groups being F3, F6 and F7 to activate. Why can't it just be F1, F2 and F3?





So you've played for a weekend and you want the whole game changed?

It's the most whining I've seen from a new player for a long time....I don't hold out much hope of you being here for very long.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Memphis Baas
#16 - 2016-09-26 12:33:06 UTC
He'll be ok if he stops focusing on making it "easy" for himself to control the game, and starts focusing on combat and ship-fitting tactics and strategy.

Newbies to a game always get shocked by the interface, but eventually they get past it and start enjoying the game / start progressing inside it.

Give him time.

EVE's UI works for the type of game it is; CCP's experimented with joystick support and wasd support and any-key module activation, and I believe the majority of players still use the default ctrl-clicking, mouse-centric control scheme.
Nabu Nezzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2016-09-26 15:05:50 UTC
@Iria Ahrens

Those MTUs definitely sound interesting and should help me out...as long as my Coercer can move such a thing. If someone shoots it down, well, c'est la vie.

Regarding the symbols - I posted a link to a screenshot about what I mean in my second post. Apparently having the symbols named (which would help newbies) used to be a thing.

And I completely agree with the reddit part. I heavily prefer the structure of "proper" forums.

@Zirashi:

"Don't mix weapon ranges."

~snip thanks to character limit (and no quote thanks to quote limit), sorry~

"Basically, if you try fitting to be able to do everything, you'll end up being able to do nothing."


Yep, I actually know that (I think it was mentioned in one of the tutorials). But considering I'm killing NPCs and getting swarmed by them...they are weak enough to make destroying them more effective/faster that way. And maximizing effectiveness/speed is usually what I strive to achieve. Thanks regardless since your point is an important one.

Toobo wrote:
You may find some interface issues awkward, but let's say CCP implemented all your changes over night, tomorrow you will see rage posts from thousands of people who have been playing for a decade screaming the new interface (that you proposed) is totally awkward and not intuitive. ;)

I respect your 15 years of gaming experience (although I've been playing for far longer than that myself), and I hope in the same spirit you can respect EVE is what is now after 13 years of player feedback and tweaks.

Certainly there are things that can be improved, and it's good you suggest your ideas and feedback. But this is not a game a new player can come into and say 'what is wrong with eve'. That would be like me walking into your house you've been living in fo 13 years and telling you your home interior and furnitur arrangements are wrong and unintuitive, and goes againt my 30+ years of experince in living in... erm.... Houses, lol.

No offence intended, and kudos for the feedback, and CCP would be happy to hear what new players feel. But there are reaosns for things to be the way they are, albeit with the open acceptance that things can be improved. ;)

Ha ha, most definitely. People just get accustomed to these things over time.

My gaming experience is longer but 15 years ago is the point where developers/publishers mostly stopped experimenting in general on the PC due to increased development costs, establishment of standards etc etc. Of course and as I said in the first post, I "noticed" these issues and just mentioned them. It's in no way a cry to make changes or anything. It's also the reason why I chose the title that I did, despite this obviously being in the new player section.

Memphis Baas wrote:
Also, skills are completely different, they train whether you're logged in or not, and merely unlock access to ships or provide the odd 5% bonus; it's through the accumulation of little bonuses in a lot of places that your character becomes overall much better at doing things.

As a side-effect of everyone being able to train anything, we don't recruit based on needing healers, tanks, or DPS; if any role is needed, the existing corp members can certainly train that role in short order. So we recruit based on personality, trust, and how fun and "chill" you appear to be, and continue to be once you've joined.

Finally, the whole economy is player-based. Players manufacture or loot pretty much everything, and without NPC "vendors" to buy it from us, the PVP serves a very important role of destroying some existing ships so that players feel the need to buy new ones, thus creating a demand. If you're looking for purely PVE, it's possible, but it's not as fleshed out as other MMO's, and you'll get bored pretty fast; on the other hand, the PVP is where the developers have put most of their effort in, and where the fun really is (provided that you're in a GOOD group; it always depends on that).

Enjoy.

I actually noticed that on my third day (Friday). When I installed it Wednesday, I only had an hour of time, so I trained like 2-3 skills. On Thursday the client was busy crashing all the time (I selected to download everything) and on Friday I finally continued training...well, pretty much 48 hours "wasted".

Thank you.

(Darn character limit, can't quote). Regarding your next post, it's crucial for player fights. But what about NPC fights? Do these missions get that dangerous at some point?

Toobo wrote:
Just to add a bit on the interface/intuitive issue... I have been playing with 'inverted Y-Axis' since X-Wing in early 90s (that's even before the popular X-Wing vs Tie Fighter which came later on), and also for Duke Nukem 3D (DOOM and Wolfenstein 3D did not have Y axis).

For some weird reasons though, when it comes to EVE and GTA series, I don't use 'invertd Y-Axis'.

When you try different things, very often you will find that you are more adaptable than you give yourself credit for. ;)

I'm mostly fine with either since I experienced both. (Pseudo-3D was the best, easier to aim, only half the trouble ^^.) But the GTA series belongs on the PC, you use a mouse for that" :P

Drago Shouna wrote:
So you've played for a weekend and you want the whole game changed?

It's the most whining I've seen from a new player for a long time....I don't hold out much hope of you being here for very long.

Nabu Nezzar wrote:
I should have also prefaced it with mentioning that a GM asked me after a few hours of play what I think about the game/UI and I couldn't answer much at that point. So this in part is also a response to that question (albeit in the forum).
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#18 - 2016-09-26 15:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
There are good gameplay reasons for a lot of these items that you just haven't encountered yet.


Nabu Nezzar wrote:


1. Left (instead of right) mouse-button changes the angle at which you look at your ship...that's really unintuitive. You don't need the right mouse-button at all and whenever you want to change the angle to look around you and you accidentally click on a station/object/whatever in the far distance, the ring menu opens and you might click on something which you don't want. That has already happened multiple times to me.
In the solar system map and the 3D map (which isn't good by the way), it's the same. Left click changed the angle, right click moves around. This stands contrary to the last 15 years of gaming and is definitely weird for new players, trying out the game.


A few things about this: I personally don't care for the radial menu so I remap it to the middle mouse button and then pretend it doesn't exist. You can find this in "General Settings".

There will be times when you will want to be able to adjust both the camera's position, and the direction it is looking (right click), though some of them are more "advanced" play, such as visually identifying the type of guns someone has by looking at their ship. I'm frankly pretty crap at that, and I find it helpful to be able to zoom in on a gun (mouse wheel while in right click look mode temporarily adjusts FOV zoom). I can understand why you might wish the keys were switched, but vOv.

As others have noted, however, the right mouse button is probably the single most important "key" in the game. Right click EVERYTHING.


Quote:

1.1 Regarding the map: The beta map doesn't seem good and that's because it's 3D which is pointless for a map unless there is a reason why it should be that way (I haven't seen one in the game so far). It also centers around some random point, whenever you open it. What's good about it is that it highlights the direct connections and the security. From my newbie point of view, those two features paired with the 2D map would make it perfect.


You know it can be flattened, right? Click the left icon on the top bar and check "Abstract layout" and it flattens the map. Again, as others have noted, there are uses for both layouts.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Nabu Nezzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2016-09-26 16:31:23 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
There are good gameplay reasons for a lot of these items that you just haven't encountered yet.


Nabu Nezzar wrote:


1. Left (instead of right) mouse-button changes the angle at which you look at your ship...that's really unintuitive. You don't need the right mouse-button at all and whenever you want to change the angle to look around you and you accidentally click on a station/object/whatever in the far distance, the ring menu opens and you might click on something which you don't want. That has already happened multiple times to me.
In the solar system map and the 3D map (which isn't good by the way), it's the same. Left click changed the angle, right click moves around. This stands contrary to the last 15 years of gaming and is definitely weird for new players, trying out the game.


A few things about this: I personally don't care for the radial menu so I remap it to the middle mouse button and then pretend it doesn't exist. You can find this in "General Settings".

There will be times when you will want to be able to adjust both the camera's position, and the direction it is looking (right click), though some of them are more "advanced" play, such as visually identifying the type of guns someone has by looking at their ship. I'm frankly pretty crap at that, and I find it helpful to be able to zoom in on a gun (mouse wheel while in right click look mode temporarily adjusts FOV zoom). I can understand why you might wish the keys were switched, but vOv.

As others have noted, however, the right mouse button is probably the single most important "key" in the game. Right click EVERYTHING.


Quote:

1.1 Regarding the map: The beta map doesn't seem good and that's because it's 3D which is pointless for a map unless there is a reason why it should be that way (I haven't seen one in the game so far). It also centers around some random point, whenever you open it. What's good about it is that it highlights the direct connections and the security. From my newbie point of view, those two features paired with the 2D map would make it perfect.


You know it can be flattened, right? Click the left icon on the top bar and check "Abstract layout" and it flattens the map. Again, as others have noted, there are uses for both layouts.

Yep, that's what I gathered from it so far.

About that manually looking at hostile ships to see their turrets...can't you do that via some camera settings? At least that happened to me when fighting some NPCs. Suddenly, instead of looking at my ship from behind, I was looking at the hostile ship from behind. I had no idea what to do, so I destroyed it and it switched back. Wouldn't that be a feasible option instead of manually looking?

Oh, so that's what it does. Now the beta map has become a lot more usable to me right now. Thanks.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#20 - 2016-09-26 16:37:24 UTC
Nabu Nezzar wrote:


About that manually looking at hostile ships to see their turrets...can't you do that via some camera settings? At least that happened to me when fighting some NPCs. Suddenly, instead of looking at my ship from behind, I was looking at the hostile ship from behind. I had no idea what to do, so I destroyed it and it switched back. Wouldn't that be a feasible option instead of manually looking?

Oh, so that's what it does. Now the beta map has become a lot more usable to me right now. Thanks.



Yeah, "Look at ship" is step 1.

But once you've done that, you will probably still need to position the camera - now in orbit around their ship - and zoom in to get a good look at the gun. I do, anyway.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

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