These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
First pagePrevious page8910
 

War dec recurrence
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rawmeat Mary
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#181 - 2016-09-23 09:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawmeat Mary
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
... so lore > gameplay? no thanks

I'm not sure if it's lore as such. Maybe it is, but each to their own.

Why introduce a new mechanic unlike any other in the game - there is currently no mechanic that specifically indicates anything about us as players - if there is an alternate way that fits with the existing basis of the game's design?

These mechanicss and information gathering tools existed in the past, CCP removed them one after the other, Watchlist being the last in line.

For example, you used to be able to see a player's Standing with NPC corps and Faction, gave a good idea of what area they lived in and even stations for mission runners.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#182 - 2016-09-23 10:01:25 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
id say about 60% of the corps we dec are like this ,you can do all the research on a target you like but as soon as the war goes live you only ever have 10%(ish) of the corp active, pretty much regardless of what their previous activity levels were like.

and of those that remain online their behavior almost always changes significantly,
a considerably amount will go wh diving , some will station trade exclusivly and thats grand,
good job lads making it hard ,fair play,
but by and large the default response is just to stay offline even the ones you wouldn't expect it from.
Is that not more of a target selection issue though? It's a much wider issue than just target tracking though. This is why I'd much rather see the system looked at from the ground up, so wardeccers fight with people who actually want to fight while people who don't fight end up becoming subservient to the fighting corps/alliances, paying in taxes that reward the people willing to fight. The problem at the moment is that the majority of the time the people you are aggressing have no interest in fighting, so they evade. Without crippling the ability to evade, it's hard to ensure a fight, so one side or the other is going to end up playing in a way they don't like. OTOH right now, two corps both willing to fight gain very little for doing so, so target selection remains evader heavy.

Lucas Kell wrote:
but as rawmeat was illustrating the level of work thats now required is burnout level busy work ,
and believe me it is, i have had several friends burn out , hell Raz stopped taking contracts because he couldn't in good conscience ask it of us.
Sure, I accept that. Happy to look at a balance between the situation now and the situation then. Like I say, your solution is a pretty solid one for doing that.

Lucas Kell wrote:
and yeah fair point on the "click me" thing, updated it now.
I like the new one Big smile

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#183 - 2016-09-23 10:07:24 UTC
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
These mechanicss and information gathering tools existed existed in the past, CCP removed them one after the other, Watchlist being the last in line.

For example, you used to be able to see a player's Standing with NPC corps and Faction, gave a good idea of what area they lived in and even stations for mission runners.

See the edit to my previous post. That might explain it a bit clearer.

It's more a concept than any specific mechanic, so I would approach it differently is all.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#184 - 2016-09-23 10:14:43 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
An online/offline indicator breaks the concept that Eve is real by reaching out to say something about us as players.

So for me, that's kind of immersion breaking.
What about if they could find a lore friendly way to do it? Right now we know that our character warps off into some sort of deadspace where they vanish from local. The locator agents could simply have that. So if someone would still show on the local list in a system (even if logged off and being aggressed) they would show the location. If they were offline the agent would say that they can't get a fix on their location but they are in a given region.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#185 - 2016-09-23 10:17:36 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

I don't particularly like the idea of the locator agent knowing online/offline status, for the same reason I don't like the AFK flag for cloaking outlined here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6637964#post6637964

In the alternate reality that is New Eden, our characters represent real, living beings. They are always present in the cluster and locator agents know nothing about us as players. They only know about our characters and that's what they look for.

An online/offline indicator breaks the concept that Eve is real by reaching out to say something about us as players.

So for me, that's kind of immersion breaking.

Perhaps something else, that indicates something about our character, but not an online/offline flag about us as players.

Just my 0.02

Yes, but in this alternate reality, your character magically disappears from space and becomes invulnerable when you log out. Isn't that immersion breaking already?

In a game where you can, with 100% certainty make yourself immune to other players by simply logging out, there needs to be a way for players to determine whether their target is in a theoretically vulnerable state or not, especially for engagements in places like wormhole space where there is no local. Hunter-style gameplay is near impossible, or at least incredibly grindy, if you are not allowed to even know when or even if your quarry is vulnerable at all or not before you spend the effort to try to track them down, or continue stalking them with no other intel that they are even online.

I honestly think CCP gets this and will do something eventually with the Observatory Arrays as they are going to need functionality to give this structure, even if it is a simple online/offline or some vague indicator of latest activity. That is still at least 6-12 months out though so until then I guess we will limp along. Or perhaps I am wrong, and Eve conflict will continue to move towards the seemingly preferred meta of random and meaningless small-gang fights.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#186 - 2016-09-23 10:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Black Pedro wrote:
Yes, but in this alternate reality, your character magically disappears from space and becomes invulnerable when you log out. Isn't that immersion breaking already?

There's no immersion to break if you aren't playing the game.

Like I wrote 2 posts ago, I'd go further with the intel provided, but still keep it somewhat open to interpretation. There's a lot more depth in the play around that, however I'm no genius game designer. I just don't particularly like an online/offline flag (despite the use of watchlists under the old system).

I think it's totally possible to bring back the intel without making it about us as players and keeping the design based on our characters instead.

Probably not explaining it well, but I lack the writing skills for that too sometimes.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#187 - 2016-09-23 10:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Yes, but in this alternate reality, your character magically disappears from space and becomes invulnerable when you log out. Isn't that immersion breaking already?

There's no immersion to break if you aren't playing the game.

Like I wrote 2 posts ago, I'd go further with the intel provided, but still keep it somewhat open to interpretation. There's a lot more depth in the play around, however I'm no genius game designer. I just don't particularly like an online/offline flag (despite the use of watchlists under the old system).

I think it's totally possible to bring back the intel without making it about us as players and keeping the design based on our characters instead.

Probably not explaining it well, but I lack the writing skills for that too sometimes.
It certainly breaks my immersion if someone I am chasing manages to log while I have them trapped in a wormhole, or alternatively springs a log-on trap on me.

I don't care about immersion though. I care about game balance. Playing chess with someone who can just pick up their pieces and go home (or set them up on another board) without you having anyway to know when they do this or where they do this isn't a very good game. Having me roam around the city looking for them at random chess boards and at unknown times just to finish our game is a little much to ask.

I totally agree by the end the watchlist situation was completely OP, but there needs to be some mechanism to help you schedule your match with an opponent in Eve. I don't care how they phrase the locator agent, or what lore reason the Observatory Array will use to give you intel, but you need to be able to know whether your target is playing the game or not, even if that infringes on your immersion.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#188 - 2016-09-23 10:34:29 UTC
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
Like I said, this was an extreme example of what can happen on a 200 men corp. However, multiply that by a few more contracts and burnout happen.

Presently I am using the exact method you described to find some handfuls of specific targets when I get the time, but mostly, today's 'hunting' is just roaming around hoping to catch someone, dedicated, directed hunting is mostly dead.
It's not really "directed hunting" if you are going after 200 people though, is it? If you were trying to go after a handful of people, you'd be able to do it fine. If you are going after 200, then you have to decide if you want to just go to the area they are in, or pick a number of people to target. You wouldn't decided to kill goons for example then go through their member list individually looking them up, you'd just go to where goons hang out and roam.

Rawmeat Mary wrote:
But rolling new alts in corp and scatter them all over? Never seen it happen, and that is many years of on and off Hisec mercing experience. Good for those that would try do it, but to be fair it takes a lot of effort and most won't. Much easier to drop corp and laugh at you.
You've not yet, but with alpha clones coming in, I imagine disposable alts are about to become a burden for a lot of playstyles.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#189 - 2016-09-23 10:44:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Black Pedro wrote:
I totally agree by the end the watchlist situation was completely OP, but there needs to be some mechanism to help you schedule your match with an opponent in Eve. I don't care how they phrase the locator agent, or what lore reason the Observatory Array will use to give you intel, but you need to be able to know whether your target is playing the game or not, even if that infringes on your immersion.

Maybe just go back and read my last post on the previous page.

Same thing, just a different focus on what the intel should be.

I'm not arguing against you or Baltec1, Hugh or Rawmeat Mary. Just putting a different view on what the focus should be.
Rawmeat Mary
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#190 - 2016-09-23 11:01:55 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
Like I said, this was an extreme example of what can happen on a 200 men corp. However, multiply that by a few more contracts and burnout happen.

Presently I am using the exact method you described to find some handfuls of specific targets when I get the time, but mostly, today's 'hunting' is just roaming around hoping to catch someone, dedicated, directed hunting is mostly dead.
It's not really "directed hunting" if you are going after 200 people though, is it? If you were trying to go after a handful of people, you'd be able to do it fine. If you are going after 200, then you have to decide if you want to just go to the area they are in, or pick a number of people to target. You wouldn't decided to kill goons for example then go through their member list individually looking them up, you'd just go to where goons hang out and roam.
Yes, though in that instance by 'directed' I mean specificly contracted corps/alliances - Which will usually end up the usual 10% still actually logging in the end. You still got to run those Locators and scouts first to find the active ones.

Quote:
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
But rolling new alts in corp and scatter them all over? Never seen it happen, and that is many years of on and off Hisec mercing experience. Good for those that would try do it, but to be fair it takes a lot of effort and most won't. Much easier to drop corp and laugh at you.
You've not yet, but with alpha clones coming in, I imagine disposable alts are about to become a burden for a lot of playstyles.
I agree, things will change, we shall see.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.
First pagePrevious page8910