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War dec recurrence
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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#141 - 2016-09-22 12:18:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
correcting your deliberate misinformation barely qualifies as discussion.
Well it's a shame you seem to have reinforced it rather than corrected it then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fI7zm7RXHs

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Rawmeat Mary
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#142 - 2016-09-22 15:57:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawmeat Mary
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
No tool means no tool. There is nothing be it free of paid for.
There is though. I walked you through how to use existing tools to determine if a player is online of offline. If that's too difficult for you, that's your problem
What you described is no tool, it is a (valid) method to scout and find one player.

A method is not a tool.

Now, that method is a formidably wasteful way to lose your time to find various online players.

There has been ideas thrown around to make Locator Agents actually tell you if the player is online or not. But you'd still need to know the name, run the locator and spend time waiting for answer and fly around to run more locators. THAT would be a solution, not free, not instant and that needs wotk from the player to achieve.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#143 - 2016-09-22 16:30:18 UTC
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
No tool means no tool. There is nothing be it free of paid for.
There is though. I walked you through how to use existing tools to determine if a player is online of offline. If that's too difficult for you, that's your problem
What you described is no tool, it is a (valid) method to scout and find one player.

A method is not a tool.

Now, that method is a formidably wasteful way to lose your time to find various online players.

There has been ideas thrown around to make Locator Agents actually tell you if the player is online or not. But you'd still need to know the name, run the locator and spend time waiting for answer and fly around to run more locators. THAT would be a solution, not free, not instant and that needs wotk from the player to achieve.


I am not against locator agents having the ability to say if people are online or offline, even though it is again free intel except that you have to pay a very small amount for it (Shae can you see that part, nope...) The key thing is that the same timing is applied as currently. This limited number means taht you have to know your prey a bit to decide who you are going to run the locator agent on so it is not an oh so simple add someone to the watch list type of free intel, you will still have to do target selection which you quite rightly noted and other war deckers have too.

I would be interested to hear Lucas Kell's point of view on this, I seem to recall that he was not against this, but that is from memory..

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Valkin Mordirc
#144 - 2016-09-22 16:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Quote:
I'm not lumping you in with them, I'm simply saying that complaining about the loss of instant perfect intel is pretty bad in itself.



Ight. I'm just going to assume your trolling now.

Because not once have I every said that I was upset that lost of the Watchlist. The free intel you keep going on about,

Your literally a merry-go-round right now.


EDIT!


In all reality dude you seem like an intelligent person, I just wish you put forth the effort in having an intelligent conversation about the subjects you feel strongly about. Not just assuming and running around screaming free intel like the rest of the bimbos.
#DeleteTheWeak
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#145 - 2016-09-22 17:00:23 UTC
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
What you described is no tool, it is a (valid) method to scout and find one player.

A method is not a tool.
It's a method that uses... wait for it... tools. You can't say that using a locator agent to determine if someone is in the same system as you and the local window to determine they are not in local, thus offline as being simply a method. It's a method using tools. Looking at your watchlist was also a method using a tool, it's just that tool took zero effort and gave instant, perfect results while the new ones require a basic level of effort.

Rawmeat Mary wrote:
Now, that method is a formidably wasteful way to lose your time to find various online players.
Then don't use it. You should probably question if you have what it takes to play EVE however, since if using locator agents is too much for you, you're going to struggle with this game.

Rawmeat Mary wrote:
There has been ideas thrown around to make Locator Agents actually tell you if the player is online or not. But you'd still need to know the name, run the locator and spend time waiting for answer and fly around to run more locators. THAT would be a solution, not free, not instant and that needs work from the player to achieve.
Sure, I'd say locator agent times would need to be extended too for that service (say for example, making it always the maximum 30 minute cooldown for a given agent if you choose to to see if the target is online) to stop people from just using alts to mass track players without undocking but yeah, that's a pretty reasonable compromise.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2016-09-22 17:05:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

It's a method that uses... wait for it... tools.


What tools?

The complaint is they are running locators then going hunting people that are not even there, what tools are there that tell them if these people are online or not before they go hunting down a shadow?
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#147 - 2016-09-22 17:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Linus Gorp
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

It's a method that uses... wait for it... tools.


What tools?

The complaint is they are running locators then going hunting people that are not even there, what tools are there that tell them if these people are online or not before they go hunting down a shadow?

A convo request.
Or fleet invite them to a full squad and look at the message... Will either tell you they're offline or will tell you they can't be invited because squad is full.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#148 - 2016-09-22 17:08:01 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Because not once have I every said that I was upset that lost of the Watchlist. The free intel you keep going on about
Sure you did, you went on about how if you hunted for someone and it turns out they were offline you'd ragequit, and how you want the ability to know someone is online when you look for them. I'll give you that you seemed more into the idea that you could pay to get some functionality back, but you certainly showed signs of distress at the watchlist being removed.

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
In all reality dude you seem like an intelligent person, I just wish you put forth the effort in having an intelligent conversation about the subjects you feel strongly about. Not just assuming and running around screaming free intel like the rest of the bimbos.
I put forth as much effort as the people I'm discussing it with. For most of this you've seen a back and forth with baltec, a known troll that will pretty much argue anything into the ground, so you've seen minimal effort, and apologies if you've been caught up in that. Note my response to Rawmeat however which is something people are more likely to see if they put the effort in.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#149 - 2016-09-22 17:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
baltec1 wrote:
What tools?

The complaint is they are running locators then going hunting people that are not even there, what tools are there that tell them if these people are online or not before they go hunting down a shadow?
Step 1. Run locator agent
Step 2. Go to location

If player not in local
- Step 3. Run locator agent

If locator agent states they are in the same system as you and the player is still not in local, they are offline
If locator agent states they have moved, they were online between the requests, so return to step 2.

It's not complex. If your complain is you have to take some jumps in step 2, then you seriously need to up your minimum level of effort to play a game.

Also, why were there not mass complaints when mercs used to see someone online, fly to that location only to find the player is AFK in a station until downtime?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#150 - 2016-09-22 17:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
What tools?

The complaint is they are running locators then going hunting people that are not even there, what tools are there that tell them if these people are online or not before they go hunting down a shadow?
Step 1. Run locator agent
Step 2. Go to location

If player not in local
- Step 3. Run locator agent

If locator agent states they are in the same system as you and the player is still not in local, they are offline
If locator agent states they have moved, they were online between the requests, so return to step 2.

It's not complex.


Highlighted the important part you missed.

Again, actually having to waste your time hunting down things not there is not a tool and is very poor gameplay.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#151 - 2016-09-22 17:13:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Also, why were there not mass complaints when mercs used to see someone online, fly to that location only to find the player is AFK in a station until downtime?

Clearly you've never spent any time on merc corp voice comms...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#152 - 2016-09-22 17:20:00 UTC
After skimming 8 pages it seems the issue is free, instant Intel being OP. The solution to this is obvious, remove local from k-space. You want to know what is going on in a system, you hop in your ibis and fly around mashing dscan.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#153 - 2016-09-22 17:27:01 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
After skimming 8 pages it seems the issue is free, instant Intel being OP. The solution to this is obvious, remove local from k-space. You want to know what is going on in a system, you hop in your ibis and fly around mashing dscan.

I disagree. The d-scan is free, instant intel - and doesn't make sense without a module fitted to your ship that you have to activate....with d-scan skills to determine your % chance of actually seeing what is there, or potentially seeing duplicates/etc.

Maybe we can keep the overview. But that is still open to debate as well.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Valkin Mordirc
#154 - 2016-09-22 17:29:38 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

It's a method that uses... wait for it... tools.


What tools?

The complaint is they are running locators then going hunting people that are not even there, what tools are there that tell them if these people are online or not before they go hunting down a shadow?

A convo request.
Or fleet invite them to a full squad and look at the message... Will either tell you they're offline or will tell you they can't be invited because squad is full.



That is not a tool.


That is a work around.


Technically it could be labeled as an exploit.

And one that CCP is not happy with.
#DeleteTheWeak
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#155 - 2016-09-22 17:51:48 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
After skimming 8 pages it seems the issue is free, instant Intel being OP. The solution to this is obvious, remove local from k-space. You want to know what is going on in a system, you hop in your ibis and fly around mashing dscan.

I disagree. The d-scan is free, instant intel - and doesn't make sense without a module fitted to your ship that you have to activate....with d-scan skills to determine your % chance of actually seeing what is there, or potentially seeing duplicates/etc.

Maybe we can keep the overview. But that is still open to debate as well.


Now this is dangerous water. I've never fit an engine, how does the ship fly? Wtb space HEMIs. Making radar a module that must be fitted instead of a base feature included in your space submarine opens up full customization, which may or may not be a good thing for the game.

I do not agree that it's instant, because I have to manually activate it and wait for the result. Have you used d scan?

There is a big difference between who is in range of your ships sonar and a list of everyone in the system, even the cloaked ones. One is instant and free, the other requires effort and basic knowledge of navigation.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2016-09-22 17:57:07 UTC
Heh.

"effort"

huhu huh hhhhh huhuhuhu someone said effort.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#157 - 2016-09-22 18:10:09 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
After skimming 8 pages it seems the issue is free, instant Intel being OP. The solution to this is obvious, remove local from k-space. You want to know what is going on in a system, you hop in your ibis and fly around mashing dscan.

I disagree. The d-scan is free, instant intel - and doesn't make sense without a module fitted to your ship that you have to activate....with d-scan skills to determine your % chance of actually seeing what is there, or potentially seeing duplicates/etc.

Maybe we can keep the overview. But that is still open to debate as well.


Now this is dangerous water. I've never fit an engine, how does the ship fly? Wtb space HEMIs. Making radar a module that must be fitted instead of a base feature included in your space submarine opens up full customization, which may or may not be a good thing for the game.

I do not agree that it's instant, because I have to manually activate it and wait for the result. Have you used d scan?

There is a big difference between who is in range of your ships sonar and a list of everyone in the system, even the cloaked ones. One is instant and free, the other requires effort and basic knowledge of navigation.

Look buddy boy, if A locator agent that takes 4 minutes to ****ing answer my question and then won't talk to me for 15 more minutes afterwards is "instant" - then D-scan is so instant it is time travelling backwards in time!

In addition to being a module that has to be fit and manually activated - there should be a time delay for the ping to bounce off of objects and return results - longer if they are farther away. Plus you are neglecting my statement that it shouldn't be 100% accurate even then, and should require training skills to get close to accurate info.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#158 - 2016-09-22 18:17:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Highlighted the important part you missed.
I didn't miss it, it's just irrelevant. First off you should have to get off your ass to go looking, secondly, even if you know they are online you don't know if they are active so you're still in the same situation that you can go hunting them down only to find them in a station AFK.

baltec1 wrote:
Again, actually having to waste your time hunting down things not there is not a tool and is very poor gameplay.
If you don't want to have to do all of that pesky undocking and flying of spaceships to get your content, you're playing the wrong game.

Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Clearly you've never spent any time on merc corp voice comms...
P

The real question is why is it suddenly a forum worthy issue. They can whine about people being offline wall they want on comms.

And psst, I don't think Zanar was calling locator agents instant and free, he was referring to why watchlists were removed... I think.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#159 - 2016-09-22 18:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Bah, lets just demand realism. Nobody should be able to fly their ship unless they can build and operate it in RL.

PPP

It is a *video game* - of course there are "free" and "easy" tools that don't make any sense...you need them to make the game *fun* and *playable* for the average person.

Having a way to know if your enemy is even playing really is a natural tool that should be provided - even if limits are placed upon it.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#160 - 2016-09-22 18:54:10 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
It is a *video game* - of course there are "free" and "easy" tools that don't make any sense...you need them to make the game *fun* and *playable* for the average person.

Having a way to know if your enemy is even playing really is a natural tool that should be provided - even if limits are placed upon it.
Sure, but it has to be balanced. Look at it from a targets point of view, the moment he logs in he flags up to his aggressors so they can immediately start hunting him, and they've had to do nothing for that ability. That's why it's important for it to be an active task. right now it is since you have to actively hunt down the target to see if thy are there.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.