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Copying / Invention
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Per'mit Me'too Die'tryin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-09-21 09:17:51 UTC
Copying and invention need more excitement.

What if while doing either you get better base stats to the ship in question?

Nothing big like extra slots or a complete change in the ships bonus's, but instead a little more speed, EHP, capacitor, targeting range, you name it. These would be completely random, and effect only one or two attributes.

I would have mentioned Research, but having a BPO with a specific change over an UN-researched BPO seems a little over powered. One issue I see is the inability to properly list on the market once the ship is built. Contracted, you would be able to easily see any differences by checking the show information on the ship itself.


tldr - Ability to change base stats on ships through copying or invention. (Albeit small changes)
General Guardian
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2016-09-21 09:33:48 UTC
I like it as a base for an idea. I had an idea a few years ago which would have added items to LP stores to alter some stats on hulls but this is probably a more reasonable idea. I'd probably try invention again. Last time I did a bit of invention it got seriously boring.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2016-09-21 09:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Sounds fun in theory and it would make sense for Invention because you create a new ship blueprint through tinkering with tools and stats. However, the way EVE's ships are setup it would be a balancing nightmare to prevent things like Cancerpul or Ishtar Online on a vastly more widespread scope.

Fun fact: I just finished a translation for a PVP-Arena games with just a handful of ships (3 races with 5 ships each) but loads of customization options. Judging by the patchnote translations, they have had serious problems with balancing these ships. Now imagine adding random values to the hundreds of ships in EVE online. If such a system wants to be a success without creating too much imbapwnedmagic (even small stat increases can have significant impact on balance. Take the Ferox and Hurricane as example: The Ferox has a longer lock range and can kite a Hurricane, but if a Cane got more lock range, it could easily dominate Feroxes because of alpha.), the balancing and stats system in EVE would very likely need to be completely reworked to accommodate for these random stats changes.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Per'mit Me'too Die'tryin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-09-21 09:55:06 UTC
General Guardian wrote:
I like it as a base for an idea. I had an idea a few years ago which would have added items to LP stores to alter some stats on hulls but this is probably a more reasonable idea. I'd probably try invention again. Last time I did a bit of invention it got seriously boring.


Items from the LP stores would be a great idea! The LP stores have been pretty static for some time now except for faction ship bpc. The addition of an item to it could revitalize it.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Take the Ferox and Hurricane as example: The Ferox has a longer lock range and can kite a Hurricane, but if a Cane got more lock range, it could easily dominate Feroxes because of alpha.), the balancing and stats system in EVE would very likely need to be completely reworked to accommodate for these random stats changes.


I concede that this would be an issue if the changes were significant upon copying or researching the BPC, but an additional 1km more targeting range increase to a Cane would not exactly unbalance the fight in the other direction. All changes would be extremely small.
Cristl
#5 - 2016-09-21 10:56:51 UTC
A further problem: each ship would require its own database entry. The hamsters would be dashing to their pitchforks.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2016-09-21 11:19:15 UTC
Those items from the LP stores that modify a ships stats are called faction modules.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-09-21 15:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Cristl wrote:
A further problem: each ship would require its own database entry. The hamsters would be dashing to their pitchforks.


I can't tell if they're describing a change to the output itself, or some sort of buff that you get simply from having the job installed.

Both would be awful, though. As someone who does a lot of invention jobs, I've never found myself thinking, "You know what this needs? More excitement."

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#8 - 2016-09-21 16:58:03 UTC
There was a time when you could add a meta module as an optional item to increase your chance of a successful invention. Bringing back something like this that would randomly improve your outcome - whether probability of success, ME, TE or runs would be interesting. An easy and inexpensive way to give industrial players a small dopamine hit!
Sammy Fischer
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-09-22 03:20:40 UTC
Invention jobs that don't require as much skill to create bpcs of meta ships. These hulls can fit in between T1 and T2 the way meta modules do now.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2016-09-22 03:22:52 UTC
lets ignore how ccp can't balance what they have



how would you get this to work with the database and market?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2016-09-22 03:23:50 UTC
Do Little wrote:
There was a time when you could add a meta module as an optional item to increase your chance of a successful invention. Bringing back something like this that would randomly improve your outcome - whether probability of success, ME, TE or runs would be interesting. An easy and inexpensive way to give industrial players a small dopamine hit!



you mean like the data chips?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#12 - 2016-09-22 03:28:21 UTC
Do Little wrote:
There was a time when you could add a meta module as an optional item to increase your chance of a successful invention. Bringing back something like this that would randomly improve your outcome - whether probability of success, ME, TE or runs would be interesting. An easy and inexpensive way to give industrial players a small dopamine hit!

Salvagers would like this. It would give their product something to do besides "reprocess into base minerals."

A signature :o
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#13 - 2016-09-22 04:40:31 UTC
Do Little wrote:
There was a time when you could add a meta module as an optional item to increase your chance of a successful invention. Bringing back something like this that would randomly improve your outcome - whether probability of success, ME, TE or runs would be interesting. An easy and inexpensive way to give industrial players a small dopamine hit!


People would whine. It's why half the stuff that made Indy competitive went away. I cry when I see my used to be (over) researched bp's flatlined to 10 me now. Same as anyone else can get in no time really. Hated this change too.

CCP turned Indy into little league, everyone gets a trophy to not have hurt feelings. Here they'd whine because people like me do more than 1 thing. Mission loot would feed the invents, like in the past. When the named gear sells for 20k isk, yeah I' ll isk war that no cares if need be. All they had to do was run missions to get this hookup. Wtf else you gonna do when you maxed your jobs lol.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2016-09-22 05:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
the only thing i got excited for with that indi revamp was teams... then they screwed those abandoned the idea and left us with a mess and years of wasted work on BPs. you used to feel proud when you knew that you were saving 2 trit over most ppl who stopped at the recommended me. sure each sale it wouldn't show but eve is a game where you put in for the long haul a few thousand sales a month added up over the years.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2016-09-22 05:52:14 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:


People would whine. It's why half the stuff that made Indy competitive went away. I cry when I see my used to be (over) researched bp's flatlined to 10 me now. Same as anyone else can get in no time really. Hated this change too.

CCP turned Indy into little league, everyone gets a trophy to not have hurt feelings. Here they'd whine because people like me do more than 1 thing. Mission loot would feed the invents, like in the past. When the named gear sells for 20k isk, yeah I' ll isk war that no cares if need be. All they had to do was run missions to get this hookup. Wtf else you gonna do when you maxed your jobs lol.

No, the stuff that went away was pointless make-work that simply averaged out in the long run anyway. When you are making 10,000 catalysts it doesn't matter if 5 times you fail and 5 times you make double the product, it averages out, so might as well just have it make 1 catalyst every time.
Teams were an interesting concept but ended up failing to meet their concept design big time, and again turned into a poor exercise in tedium.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2016-09-22 05:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Teams were an interesting concept but ended up failing to meet their concept design big time, and again turned into a poor exercise in tedium.

I don't see how they failed. Despite initial concerns, I got every team I wanted for nearly no cost and they helped me out a lot to improve my productivity and profits. What happened, however, is that the teams did not meet CCP's own overestimated and unrealistic expectations. Furthermore, I never felt tedium when I bid for teams. I eyed out a couple of candidates whose bidding process ended at a time when I was definitely online and ready, I monitored them (this could have been made better, to be fair) with notes and then hit the bids when they were close to finish their auction. That's not tedium. People complained that they couldn't get teams in their time zone, but that was just a sign of incompetence because team auctions came out all over the place and times. They also complained that the sniping was too hard and asked for silent auctions, to which I say: What problem does this solve? You couldn't bid high enough with the sniping, how do you think you bid high enough with silent auction? People were just approaching the entire process like saddling a horse from behind. That's not a fault of the team process but of player incompetence.

The infinite researchability of BPOs also was not unnecessary work, it was a long-term motivation to squeeze the last possible bit of material consumption reduction out of it. As with everything in EVE, the better it gets, the bigger the diminishing factor for returns are. Beyond a certain level, obviously the saved minerals were very few, but that still saved you money in the long run. No one was forced to research their BPOs beyond ME50, but you had the opportunity. To me, it was a very welcome thing because I just bought an Armageddon BPO a couple of weeks before they changed the BS material cost. Since then, Armageddons sold 200% or more under material cost and only just recently they returned back into the profits, 3 years after the changes. I used that time until the industry changes, to research my Geddon BPO in Curse to ever higher levels because, frankly, what else could I have done with it? Same was the case for the BCs. The infinite researchability was not unnecessary, it was an opportunity that you could but didn't have to grab.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#17 - 2016-09-22 11:48:58 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
No, the stuff that went away was pointless make-work that simply averaged out in the long run anyway. When you are making 10,000 catalysts it doesn't matter if 5 times you fail and 5 times you make double the product, it averages out, so might as well just have it make 1 catalyst every time.
Teams were an interesting concept but ended up failing to meet their concept design big time, and again turned into a poor exercise in tedium.


It added some complexity to the system I found made it interesting.

Current system: I just bought some can bp's since I always need them, getting old flying around for them. In days flat all are max ME. That's it, no intrigue, no drama. I am like every other can seller, max me bp's.

Leaves only 1 way to make money off these if I sold them. Kill time flying around seeding low ball buy orders. And collecting on said low balls if/when filled. Same as with any other BPO I own.

Old system: I'd put my stuff in that extra month or 2 past "perfect" me. See some mins falls off, not much but an edge possible. especially on larger items. this gave me 2 options. I could ride out my better ME and haul less from low ball buy order systems. Which was nice on lazy nights...at jita anyway, screw it lets not kill the night collecting from my out of the way systems to save 2 or 3 isk per mineral.

Or I could keep up the low ball system and leverage the uber ME for some selling power. either sell at market and make even more money than lower ME builders. Or isk war properly. I never resorted to .01 isk warfare. My price drops were legit. I shave 50K off the build price so...lets have me isk war at 25 K. fairest form of market pvp. I didn't waste your or my time .01 isking all night long. 1 less asshat in jita to deal with...rest you were on your own lol.

See half the reason people saw issue with the old system I think is they were stuck in making the common items. Which was a mess and cesspool of crap really.

I found the old system worked quite well in the high ends. I made blops long ago. Attention to ME (on the invent rolls with RNG, your source parts like t2 comps, jump drives, scorpion) made you some good money here. The effort paid off.

It wasn't crapped up with t2 bpo owners undercutting, free mins people since when you have 20000000 people make the same damn thing people do this to make back the money on the stuff they did buy. I just bought 600 in moon goo to make t2 components to go with a 200 mil BS....I want my 800, no free mins here for nobody lol.


Common items...was, is and always be crap. This change didn't change that.