These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Gambling

First post
Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#61 - 2016-09-21 00:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
With all this talk of Mitten being a lawyer I think it's fair to point out that, according to every article I've read regarding his spaceship shenanigans, Mittens was a corporate lawyer; as such gambling laws may well be outside of his experience and knowledge.

The only person that can say whether or not this is the case is Mittens himself.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#62 - 2016-09-21 00:49:04 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
With all this talk of Mitten being a lawyer I think it's fair to point out that, according to every article I've read regarding his spaceship shenanigans, Mittens was a corporate lawyer; as such gambling laws may well be outside of his experience and knowledge.

The only person that can say whether or not this is the case is Mittens himself.

Indeed - though it is really an extra-moot point as he retired several years ago apparently

He may have to start working again now of course - depends how much of his RL earnings from EVE he managed to save up...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#63 - 2016-09-21 01:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
For once I'm mostly in agreement with Lucas, I think that CCP need to look at any legal implications that Eve related gambling may have for them as a company if they haven't already done so, more so than ever with the upcoming movement of their HQ management team to London; the laws regulating gambling are struggling to cope with the realities of virtual cash and items and as such are a quagmire for anybody that puts a foot wrong.

Being a controversial subject the debate often gets quite heated which leads to locked threads and bad blood. I think that CCP should make their stance clear on the issue in an official communication so that this subject doesn't keep popping up.

My personal view is that it's a mugs game, I've seen how it can affect people IRL and it's not pretty.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Cade Windstalker
#64 - 2016-09-21 02:51:44 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
You haven't addressed my point that CCP isn't the one running the gambling sites.

Lets take I Want Isk as an example, since they are probably the biggest:

You *purchase* I Want Isk tokens (which they call isk) with EVE isk. You then gamble for more I Want Isk tokens. Then you *convert* your I Want Isk tokens *back* into EVE isk.

EVE isk has RL $$$ value at EVE events. As well as (another issue you never addressed) at least 1 *non-CCP* tour company in iceland. Possibly a few other local businesses as well? Within EVE gameplay, accumulating this isk is legal, even though it has clearly defined dollar values and can be used for numerous services provided by CCP - because you accumulate it through *skill* inside the game (re-read your own first example you linked, of the woman who tried to claim some game was a slot machine).

However, by operating 100% separately from EVE with *their own* token system (regardless of the fact that they call it isk and give a 1:1 conversion ratio - it is *not* EVE isk) - I Want Isk in fact isolates their "slot machine" style game-play - and removes all skill from the acquisition of isk. Thus making it, legally, a slot machine (per your own example).


Whether or not CCP runs the gambling sites isn't relevant to any of my points, so I've ignored it. The core of my point here is that in-game ISK, legally speaking, has no value, regardless of some people's passionate feelings to the contrary. It doesn't matter if CCP is running the gambling sites because of that fact alone.

PLEX is, with the exception of the graphics card one-off, only exchangeable for things CCP provides. The tour is provided by CCP as part of Fanfest, not as a separate thing. It's only available through CCP.

Also the dollar values are not clearly defined because... you can't convert your ISK into money! You can buy PLEX and convert that into a very few things offered by CCP, but that's it.

Also if you'll note from my example the legal definition of gambling requires that you be gaining something of value, which ISK is not. IWI doesn't use tokens, they use Eve ISK. Just because it's on another site doesn't change this, when I see something in $ on someone's site it's in US Dollars even though it's not affiliated with the US government.

You're claiming that it has a real world dollar value, but that link is entirely reliant on CCP's pricing, and as I've pointed out repeatedly nothing here is enough to establish anything done in-game as a source of income for tax purposes, so why is your value definition enough for it to be gambling but not enough for my ratting or ganks to be taxed?

Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
A similar example would be:
If I started up a blackjack table across from an arcade - but instead of betting money I bet only tokens for the arcade across the way - would this be gambling?

Clearly within the arcade itself, they can let you win free plays of their own games - and this is not gambling.

But by taking it *outside* of their arcade, and letting you gamble for tokens to *someone else's arcade* - I am in fact providing a clear-cut gambling service for something that has value *somewhere other than my own game*. Even though you can't buy a new car with the tokens - I would still argue that this is, in fact, gambling - and the local police would arrest me for doing something like this.


Possibly, you have to buy those arcade tokens and those tokens still have value because they can be used to play games at the arcade. You're also using a physical item which has an intrinsic value even if it's not very high. Also most arcade tokens are just physical stand-ins for quarters, which further allows a lawyer to say that they have physical value. It's not 100% clear cut though, and a lawyer could definitely argue that if the tokens can't be used elsewhere and can't be traded for anything of value that you're not legally running a gambling operation.

BTW fun fact, Chuck-e-Cheese has nearly been sued under gambling laws, and several local authorities have issued public statements specifically stating that they are not going to enforce local gambling statutes against the company even though it may technically be in violation of them.

So yeah, in short I think your example kind of proves my point. If you can find an example of legal action being taken against an arcade for something like this though then I'd love to read about it.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
For once I'm mostly in agreement with Lucas, I think that CCP need to look at any legal implications that Eve related gambling may have for them as a company if they haven't already done so, more so than ever with the upcoming movement of their HQ to London; the laws regulating gambling are struggling to cope with the realities of virtual cash and items and as such are a quagmire for anybody that puts a foot wrong.

Being a controversial subject the debate often gets quite heated which leads to locked threads and bad blood. I think that CCP should make their stance clear on the issue in an official communication so that this subject doesn't keep popping up.

My personal view is that it's a mugs game, I've seen how it can affect people IRL and it's not pretty.


It's almost certain that they've already done exactly this already, and determined that as long as you can't sell ISK for RL money then they're fine, since most gambling legislation requires that the things won have real value, so that the laws can't be abused to go after purely recreational games of chance.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#65 - 2016-09-21 03:19:37 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Possibly, you have to buy those arcade tokens and those tokens still have value because they can be used to play games at the arcade. You're also using a physical item which has an intrinsic value even if it's not very high. Also most arcade tokens are just physical stand-ins for quarters, which further allows a lawyer to say that they have physical value. It's not 100% clear cut though, and a lawyer could definitely argue that if the tokens can't be used elsewhere and can't be traded for anything of value that you're not legally running a gambling operation.

The tokens *can* be used elsewhere though. That was the entire point. They can be used at the arcade - which is not in any way, shape, or form affiliated with me. In my example, I am literally just using the arcade's money instead of real money. Exactly as the EVE gambling sites are doing - as they are *not* in any way affiliated with CCP or EVE.



Cade Windstalker wrote:
BTW fun fact, Chuck-e-Cheese has nearly been sued under gambling laws, and several local authorities have issued public statements specifically stating that they are not going to enforce local gambling statutes against the company even though it may technically be in violation of them.

Speaking of making my case for me... If Chuck-e-Cheese is technically violating gambling laws by literally just running an arcade - and only avoids having charges pressed against them because they are popular amongst local authorities (who need votes from parents).... What in the **** leads you to believe that those same politicians will care about *video game gambling websites* enough to turn a blind eye to their activities? If any parents are leaving their children at the "I Want Isk Daycare Center" - the politicians probably don't want to be publicly associated with them...



You still seem to be missing my point - dismissing it as arbitrarily irrelevant, so let me try re-stating it one more time:

EVE isk that you gain *in game* through ratting/etc is just part of the *game*. It has no value outside of the game you acquire it in. Thus, you don't need to "pay taxes" on it or anything of that nature.

***EVE Isk that you gain in a non-EVE gambling website is *not* part of the game you acquired it in. It is literally just a stand-in for money - which can only be redeemed at one specific store (CCP's), which is not affiliated with the gambling site***

Despite the lack of physical items - they are essentially gambling for gift cards that can only be redeemed at CCP-sponsored stores.

***Per *your own* example (the first one you linked) - I Want Isk *is* legally defined as "a slot machine" - as it is purely chance based, and requires no skill of any sort whatsoever***

So since we've proven that the tokens *do* have value outside of the game you won them in (because they can be used in EVE, which is *not* the game you won them in), and we've proven that the website *is* legally a slot machine - we have proven that the site *is* an illegal online casino.


Now of course a lawyer can tie this up in court for years - that is literally what lawyers do... But unless the gambling site is participating in excessive RMT, they are not likely to be able to afford a very good lawyer. And if they *are* participating in excessive RMT - then even if they get the illegal gambling charges dropped they are going to attract attention from the tax collectors about where all that unexplained income came from. Tax evasion may not be a hot-topic controversial crime - but it is an old reliable fallback option if they can't get their preferred charges to stick. Just ask Al Capone. P

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#66 - 2016-09-21 03:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The core of my point here is that in-game ISK, legally speaking, has no value

The really short version of my point is simple: It is *not* in-game isk. isk doesn't come from I Want Isk's website. Thus - you aren't discussing reality - you are only talking about your fantasy world where CCP is running the gambling sites inside EVE.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#67 - 2016-09-21 07:02:12 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
As for the idea that the CS:GO case is going to set a precident directly applicable here, I've already stated above several reasons why that's questionable. Most notably because the CS:GO related lawsuits rely on the idea that the Skins functioned as poker chips which had value. That literally only works because of the Steam marketplace and the dollar values it assigns to these items.
This case is about Fifa.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Yes but those airline tickets also represent a real-world service with a defined monetary value, while in-game ISK does not. When you buy game-time from CCP you're paying for access to that virtual world, and legally speaking things within that virtual world have no real-world value unless they're transferable back into cash.
A tour of Iceland run by a tour operator is also a real-world services with a define monetary value, and you can buy that with PLEX.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
That's literally all they do. They exist to define and regulate gambling, not to stop someone from self-destructing. This affects things like how it's taxed, and stops people from setting up certain types of predatory gambling operations, but the laws certainly don't exist to stop people from betting their life savings.
You appear to have missed the point. Of course regulations regulate, but the reason they wanted it regulated in the first place is to protect the vulnerable. It's the same reason you need a license to server alcohol, it's not simply "so alcohol is licensed" it's to stop sales to the young or vulnerable.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Except it can't, I can't go down to Starbucks and pay for coffee with my in-game currency. That CCP lets me "buy" fanfest tickets with PLEX is entirely at their discretion and doesn't give in-game ISK a real-world value.
How often do you go to starbucks and pay with steam credit?

Cade Windstalker wrote:
That is *exactly* how the law works, because I can't back out of those conversion steps. The only reason gambling with poker chips counts as gambling, regardless of what I paid for those chips, is because I can then convert them back into real money. If you take out that step (as some charity events occasionally do) then it's no longer gambling because nothing of value is being won.
Lol, no it's not. But by all means if you want to attempt money laundering to get around the law feel free to give it a shot.

"Seriously this is getting repetitive, you just keep repeating the same claim with no evidence to back it up"
As do you. In fact in your situation you're making up reason that would also apply to the existing case and mean they aren't getting charged, yet they are. How do you think ISK has no value but fifa coins do? There's no objective way for you to see the difference, you're blinded with bias.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#68 - 2016-09-21 07:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Let's just make it simple, if you're correct, then the Mittani will succeed in his lawsuits here in the US. If you aren't, then just accept it and move on.
So what you're saying is "Let's make it simple, you stop having an opinion and we'll wait for a lawsuit that probably isn't even happening". No thanks, I think I'll continue having the opinion that ISK has real world value just like Fifa coins.

Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Unless you're a solicitor there in the UK, I seriously doubt you'd get any of that to fly, but hey, I'm not British and I accept that anything in a human cultural pursuit is possible given enough time and push behind it.
Look at the current lawsuit and say that again with a straight unbiased face.

Pandora Carrollon wrote:
BTW, online gambling with REAL US MONEY is legal here in the US... for the time being, there are a lot of challenges State by State with some outlawing it. So trying to fly the EVE ISK is real gambling flag just doesn't work, at least not here in the US.
Completely unregulated gambling? Even if that is the case in some states, the moment those same places then extended themselves to allow gambling from the UK they will find themselves in the firing line from UK law. IWI also operates out of Florida I believe, which has gambling regulations.

Pandora Carrollon wrote:
I'll condescend to the fact that I am not pushing an agenda here. I don't actually CARE about EVE ISK gambling. If you aren't a UK solicitor, then you might want to check the mirror before calling some else names.
I didn't call you names, I accused you of talking down to me, which you did. If you don't care about ISK gambling then why do you seem so desperate to find a loophole?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#69 - 2016-09-21 09:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
For once I'm mostly in agreement with Lucas, I think that CCP need to look at any legal implications that Eve related gambling may have for them as a company if they haven't already done so, more so than ever with the upcoming movement of their HQ to London; the laws regulating gambling are struggling to cope with the realities of virtual cash and items and as such are a quagmire for anybody that puts a foot wrong.

Being a controversial subject the debate often gets quite heated which leads to locked threads and bad blood. I think that CCP should make their stance clear on the issue in an official communication so that this subject doesn't keep popping up.

My personal view is that it's a mugs game, I've seen how it can affect people IRL and it's not pretty.


It's almost certain that they've already done exactly this already, and determined that as long as you can't sell ISK for RL money then they're fine, since most gambling legislation requires that the things won have real value, so that the laws can't be abused to go after purely recreational games of chance.
They may well have done so and while they aren't in contravention of the current laws because they aren't providing the actual service, they do provide a framework (the API) that may allow a 3rd party to be in contravention of them. Officially disassociating themselves from 3rd parties that do carry out such activities using the API may well be a good move.

Legally any person or company providing a gambling service that is available to UK residents is required to be licensed by the appropriate authority as per the 2014 Gambling (Licensing & Advertising Bill), which covers offshore gambling and which supersedes the 2005 Gambling Act.

Digital/virtual/crypto currencies are considered to be money or moneys worth (sec 3.1 of the linked document) for the purposes of the law, as such sites like IWI may be in contravention of UK law if they offer their service to UK residents; there are also tax implications to the tune of 15% of any profits (virtual or otherwise) for people running such a service.

As I said in a previous post, the law is a quagmire; while ISK may not be officially exchangeable for real currency the regulators in the UK will treat it as one if they decide to go after 3rd party sites that use the Eve API to facilitate activities that fall under their purview.

NB IANAL, the above is based upon my understanding of the law as it currently stands in the UK.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#70 - 2016-09-21 09:40:45 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
For once I'm mostly in agreement with Lucas, I think that CCP need to look at any legal implications that Eve related gambling may have for them as a company if they haven't already done so, more so than ever with the upcoming movement of their HQ to London; the laws regulating gambling are struggling to cope with the realities of virtual cash and items and as such are a quagmire for anybody that puts a foot wrong.

Being a controversial subject the debate often gets quite heated which leads to locked threads and bad blood. I think that CCP should make their stance clear on the issue in an official communication so that this subject doesn't keep popping up.

My personal view is that it's a mugs game, I've seen how it can affect people IRL and it's not pretty.



Do you have a link or something about the HQ move to London?

Or any other info cheers.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#71 - 2016-09-21 09:45:17 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
For once I'm mostly in agreement with Lucas, I think that CCP need to look at any legal implications that Eve related gambling may have for them as a company if they haven't already done so, more so than ever with the upcoming movement of their HQ to London; the laws regulating gambling are struggling to cope with the realities of virtual cash and items and as such are a quagmire for anybody that puts a foot wrong.

Being a controversial subject the debate often gets quite heated which leads to locked threads and bad blood. I think that CCP should make their stance clear on the issue in an official communication so that this subject doesn't keep popping up.

My personal view is that it's a mugs game, I've seen how it can affect people IRL and it's not pretty.



Do you have a link or something about the HQ move to London?

Or any other info cheers.
I made an error, the HQ is staying in Reykjavik but the senior management team is moving to London.

http://massivelyop.com/2016/09/15/eve-onlines-ccp-games-opens-london-management-branch/

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Cade Windstalker
#72 - 2016-09-21 18:19:23 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
The tokens *can* be used elsewhere though. That was the entire point. They can be used at the arcade - which is not in any way, shape, or form affiliated with me. In my example, I am literally just using the arcade's money instead of real money. Exactly as the EVE gambling sites are doing - as they are *not* in any way affiliated with CCP or EVE.


That affiliation doesn't matter, it's whether or not the tokens in this case can be proven to have value. It would really depend on the setup at the arcade, how it provides the tokens, and what those tokens can be used for.

Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Speaking of making my case for me... If Chuck-e-Cheese is technically violating gambling laws by literally just running an arcade - and only avoids having charges pressed against them because they are popular amongst local authorities (who need votes from parents).... What in the **** leads you to believe that those same politicians will care about *video game gambling websites* enough to turn a blind eye to their activities? If any parents are leaving their children at the "I Want Isk Daycare Center" - the politicians probably don't want to be publicly associated with them...


It's actually only potentially violating gambling laws because you win tickets which can be exchanged for prizes. Eve has nothing of the sort, neither does IWI or similar sites.

Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
You still seem to be missing my point - dismissing it as arbitrarily irrelevant, so let me try re-stating it one more time:

EVE isk that you gain *in game* through ratting/etc is just part of the *game*. It has no value outside of the game you acquire it in. Thus, you don't need to "pay taxes" on it or anything of that nature.

***EVE Isk that you gain in a non-EVE gambling website is *not* part of the game you acquired it in. It is literally just a stand-in for money - which can only be redeemed at one specific store (CCP's), which is not affiliated with the gambling site***

Despite the lack of physical items - they are essentially gambling for gift cards that can only be redeemed at CCP-sponsored stores.

***Per *your own* example (the first one you linked) - I Want Isk *is* legally defined as "a slot machine" - as it is purely chance based, and requires no skill of any sort whatsoever***

So since we've proven that the tokens *do* have value outside of the game you won them in (because they can be used in EVE, which is *not* the game you won them in), and we've proven that the website *is* legally a slot machine - we have proven that the site *is* an illegal online casino.


Now of course a lawyer can tie this up in court for years - that is literally what lawyers do... But unless the gambling site is participating in excessive RMT, they are not likely to be able to afford a very good lawyer. And if they *are* participating in excessive RMT - then even if they get the illegal gambling charges dropped they are going to attract attention from the tax collectors about where all that unexplained income came from. Tax evasion may not be a hot-topic controversial crime - but it is an old reliable fallback option if they can't get their preferred charges to stick. Just ask Al Capone. P


I get the point you're trying to make, I just don't agree with your logic and the idea that you have "proven" that ISK has value, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if IWI is affiliated with CCP any more than it matters if I set up a poker table outside on a street corner using monopoly money when I'm not affiliated with the maker of Monopoly. The money being used still has no legal value.

Your argument here is paper thin, and is based entirely on your opinion that ISK in eve has value, but you can't cite any legal precedent to establish this and the closest thing we have is the CS:GO case, where there's no question as to the value of the Skins used, because they literally have dollar values tied directly to them, and the FIFA case where the people running the site were literally linking to a third-party RMT site encouraging people to use it to cash out. Neither of those is really equivalent to IWI, and repeating over and over that I'm wrong isn't going to make it true.
Cade Windstalker
#73 - 2016-09-21 18:20:57 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
This case is about Fifa.


Where the people running the site where literally linking to an RMT site and suggesting people use it to cash out. Big difference between that and IWI.

Lucas Kell wrote:
A tour of Iceland run by a tour operator is also a real-world services with a define monetary value, and you can buy that with PLEX.


Except you can't actually do this, you can buy a Fanfest package from CCP that includes a tour as part of the event. You can't just go to that tour company and say 'yes, I'd like to pay in PLEX, thanks'.

Lucas Kell wrote:
You appear to have missed the point. Of course regulations regulate, but the reason they wanted it regulated in the first place is to protect the vulnerable. It's the same reason you need a license to server alcohol, it's not simply "so alcohol is licensed" it's to stop sales to the young or vulnerable.


This is an erroneous assumption on your part and is not reflected at all in the existing national legislation in the UK or the US. Equating gambling regulation to alcohol regulation is false equivalence, there are laws about who alcohol can be sold to regarding age, there are no such laws regarding gambling and what you term "the vulnerable".

Lucas Kell wrote:
How often do you go to starbucks and pay with steam credit?


Doesn't matter, the values listed on Steam are in dollars (or other forms of currency) and I can sell those skins and buy games from companies that aren't Valve, through their service on Steam. It's similar to Store Credit at a department store. If you were to be awarded $10,000 in store credit at a department store you would have to report that on your taxes. If I steal someone's Titan in Eve I don't have to do that because the Titan has no real-world value.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol, no it's not. But by all means if you want to attempt money laundering to get around the law feel free to give it a shot.

"Seriously this is getting repetitive, you just keep repeating the same claim with no evidence to back it up"
As do you. In fact in your situation you're making up reason that would also apply to the existing case and mean they aren't getting charged, yet they are. How do you think ISK has no value but fifa coins do? There's no objective way for you to see the difference, you're blinded with bias.


That is literally how the law works. If I set up an event to play poker but nothing of value is wagered or won then it doesn't fall under the legal definition of gambling. Some charity events will run games like Bingo for charity where you pay to get in but no one wins anything, which makes it exempt from gambling laws.

As for your claims that I lack evidence, I linked evidence and you've responded by repeating the same points over and over again. As I said above, the gambling site in question using FIFA coins was literally advertising a way to turn the coins into real money, which is more than enough to prove that the site intended the coins as a proxy for real money. Nothing like that is going on with Eve gambling sites.

Also you screwed up your quotes on your next post. You're attributing things the other guy said to me... lol.
Cade Windstalker
#74 - 2016-09-21 18:23:55 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
They may well have done so and while they aren't in contravention of the current laws because they aren't providing the actual service, they do provide a framework (the API) that may allow a 3rd party to be in contravention of them. Officially disassociating themselves from 3rd parties that do carry out such activities using the API may well be a good move.

Legally any person or company providing a gambling service that is available to UK residents is required to be licensed by the appropriate authority as per the 2014 Gambling (Licensing & Advertising Bill), which covers offshore gambling and which supersedes the 2005 Gambling Act.

Digital/virtual/crypto currencies are considered to be money or moneys worth (sec 3.1 of the linked document) for the purposes of the law, as such sites like IWI may be in contravention of UK law if they offer their service to UK residents; there are also tax implications to the tune of 15% of any profits (virtual or otherwise) for people running such a service.

As I said in a previous post, the law is a quagmire; while ISK may not be officially exchangeable for real currency the regulators in the UK will treat it as one if they decide to go after 3rd party sites that use the Eve API to facilitate activities that fall under their purview.

NB IANAL, the above is based upon my understanding of the law as it currently stands in the UK.


"Digital/Virtual/Crypto currencies" refers to things like Bitcoin and other online-only currencies that are freely convertible to physical money, not game currencies which are not. This is actually specifically called out by the UK gambling enforcement agency in their whitepaper.

Some game currencies definitely do have money's worth (Second Life comes to mind) but only because they're freely convertible to RL money.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#75 - 2016-09-21 18:29:19 UTC
Well Cade - I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I do see where you are coming from as well - and obviously I think your logic is faulty...So fair enough thinking the same about me P

I guess we'll see how the CS:GO case goes - and see if anyone ever tries to make a similar case against IWI or any other EVE gambling site. My guess is nobody is actually going to put in the time/effort/money to bring it to court regardless - but it would certainly be an interesting legal battle to watch if they did, one way or the other.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#76 - 2016-09-21 18:44:35 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Where the people running the site where literally linking to an RMT site and suggesting people use it to cash out. Big difference between that and IWI.
So now rather than saying that the EULA preventing sale means the in-game currency has no value, you're now saying that it's the act of linking to an illicit RMT site that magically grants value? That's an insane level of mental gymnastics.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Except you can't actually do this, you can buy a Fanfest package from CCP that includes a tour as part of the event. You can't just go to that tour company and say 'yes, I'd like to pay in PLEX, thanks'.
So because CCP pick out the date of the tour, the tour is now valueless?

Cade Windstalker wrote:
This is an erroneous assumption on your part and is not reflected at all in the existing national legislation in the UK or the US. Equating gambling regulation to alcohol regulation is false equivalence, there are laws about who alcohol can be sold to regarding age, there are no such laws regarding gambling and what you term "the vulnerable".
OK, set up a regular gambling site and invite under 18s to gamble, see how you do.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Doesn't matter, the values listed on Steam are in dollars (or other forms of currency) and I can sell those skins and buy games from companies that aren't Valve, through their service on Steam. It's similar to Store Credit at a department store. If you were to be awarded $10,000 in store credit at a department store you would have to report that on your taxes. If I steal someone's Titan in Eve I don't have to do that because the Titan has no real-world value.
The value of PLEX is listed in dollars too. You can buy services that aren't provided by CCP with PLEX.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
That is literally how the law works. If I set up an event to play poker but nothing of value is wagered or won then it doesn't fall under the legal definition of gambling. Some charity events will run games like Bingo for charity where you pay to get in but no one wins anything, which makes it exempt from gambling laws.

As for your claims that I lack evidence, I linked evidence and you've responded by repeating the same points over and over again. As I said above, the gambling site in question using FIFA coins was literally advertising a way to turn the coins into real money, which is more than enough to prove that the site intended the coins as a proxy for real money. Nothing like that is going on with Eve gambling sites.

Also you screwed up your quotes on your next post. You're attributing things the other guy said to me... lol.
But ISK has value, as do Fifa coins it seems.

And no, you didn't link evidence, you have not yet proven that ISK has no value which is what your entire argument balances on. Quite honestly, you must REALLY want to keep ISK gambling around considering how many changes you've made in your argument to fit it to your narrative. Right now you're argument is at a point that if IWI linked to an RMT site, ISK would suddenly have value and their site would be illegal, but since they don't ISK has no value.

Here's a question. If a second site were set up that gambled for ISK and that linked to an RMT site, ISK would now have value. So would IWI suddenly be illegal because the second site has set that precedent? Or would IWI and the second site still both be using ISK but only one be ISK of value?

As for quotes, vOv.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Cade Windstalker
#77 - 2016-09-22 19:42:45 UTC
Dirty, pleasure discussing with you. Thank you for keeping the discussion civil and reasonable, even if we do disagree. Big smilePirate

Lucas Kell wrote:
So now rather than saying that the EULA preventing sale means the in-game currency has no value, you're now saying that it's the act of linking to an illicit RMT site that magically grants value? That's an insane level of mental gymnastics.


Not at all. Linking to the RMT/cash out site is sufficient to prove that the gambling site intends the FIFA point thingies to be a money stand-in, the same way poker chips are used in a casino. I can gamble with poker chips at home (and have done so before) but they have no value if I can't exchange them for money. Sadly for younger-me no matter how much I asked my mom refused to let me cash out.

Neither CCP nor the various Eve ISK betting sites promote cashing out in this manner.

Lucas Kell wrote:
So because CCP pick out the date of the tour, the tour is now valueless?


No, because CCP is the one paying for the tour, with real money, and they allow you to take an in-game chit that someone else paid CCP money for and say "I would like to exchange this funny-money for this other service you have offered." This is all still internal to CCP and just shuffling numbers around on their balance sheet, and it doesn't change that ISK does not have value in a legal sense.

See, again: taxes.

Lucas Kell wrote:
OK, set up a regular gambling site and invite under 18s to gamble, see how you do.


Is not relevant or related to your original point. We stop kids from doing lots of things because we judge that they're physiologically unlikely to make good decisions. After a certain age we let people make all the bad decisions they want.

None of that changes that the laws are not set up to do exactly the thing you are claiming they do, which is ridiculous.

Lucas Kell wrote:
The value of PLEX is listed in dollars too. You can buy services that aren't provided by CCP with PLEX.


No, you can't. The only things PLEX is good for are things provided by CCP. In-game items and a few special exceptions like Fanfest.

The only exception to this was a one-off graphics card promotion which has not been repeated, according to rumor precisely because of the potential legal implications, which actually strengthens my point not yours.

Lucas Kell wrote:
But ISK has value, as do Fifa coins it seems.

And no, you didn't link evidence, you have not yet proven that ISK has no value which is what your entire argument balances on. Quite honestly, you must REALLY want to keep ISK gambling around considering how many changes you've made in your argument to fit it to your narrative. Right now you're argument is at a point that if IWI linked to an RMT site, ISK would suddenly have value and their site would be illegal, but since they don't ISK has no value.

Here's a question. If a second site were set up that gambled for ISK and that linked to an RMT site, ISK would now have value. So would IWI suddenly be illegal because the second site has set that precedent? Or would IWI and the second site still both be using ISK but only one be ISK of value?

As for quotes, vOv.


ISK does not have value, you are assuming your conclusion and then throwing up things you think lead to that conclusion. That's arguing in bad faith and poor logic.

Personally I don't care about ISK gambling, I've never used any ISK gambling sites nor do I care if they disappear or not. I just hate bad logic and your logic is terrible, as are your claims that 'CCP should be looking into this!' which seems to amount to "CCP should admit that I'm right and shut all this down!" Roll Also my argument has been consistent, you keep throwing up attempts at counter examples and I point out why they either don't work or don't mean what you claim they mean. That's not changing my argument, it's poking holes in your logic.

As for your argument here, no ISK would not now have value what you would have proven is that the site in question intended it to be a value substitute, the same way a casino uses poker chips which are valueless in and of themselves.
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#78 - 2016-09-23 19:28:42 UTC
I read through this thread and certainly less qualified than most of the people posting regarding the legalities.

However, I'm unsure what parallel universe some of the people posting live in wherein in-game isk is not convertible to real-world money?

I understand it's not sanctioned by CCP, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's fairly common and easy. I have no doubt that folks that are very active within the game-isk gambling community are also active in the RMT community. Pure speculation, I admit. But it's happened before and I'm sure it's happening now.

It's just a bit difficult to wrap my head around some of the very well thought-out arguments in this thread when they also contain phrases regarding the isk-cash trade as a one-way transaction. That's demonstrably false and any argument based on that seems faulty at it's base.

KB

Dum Spiro Spero

Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#79 - 2016-09-23 21:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
KaarBaak wrote:
I read through this thread and certainly less qualified than most of the people posting regarding the legalities.

However, I'm unsure what parallel universe some of the people posting live in wherein in-game isk is not convertible to real-world money?

I understand it's not sanctioned by CCP, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's fairly common and easy. I have no doubt that folks that are very active within the game-isk gambling community are also active in the RMT community. Pure speculation, I admit. But it's happened before and I'm sure it's happening now.

It's just a bit difficult to wrap my head around some of the very well thought-out arguments in this thread when they also contain phrases regarding the isk-cash trade as a one-way transaction. That's demonstrably false and any argument based on that seems faulty at it's base.

KB
TBH I think that's more a case of staying within the forum rules than a denial that it happens.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#80 - 2016-09-24 10:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Not at all. Linking to the RMT/cash out site is sufficient to prove that the gambling site intends the FIFA point thingies to be a money stand-in, the same way poker chips are used in a casino.

I can gamble with poker chips at home (and have done so before) but they have no value if I can't exchange them for money. Sadly for younger-me no matter how much I asked my mom refused to let me cash out.
Irrelevant. Either the currency has value or it doesn't. Linking to a site to sell it doesn't magically change that . You can't sell your poker chips on ebay?

Cade Windstalker wrote:
No, because CCP is the one paying for the tour, with real money, and they allow you to take an in-game chit that someone else paid CCP money for and say "I would like to exchange this funny-money for this other service you have offered." This is all still internal to CCP and just shuffling numbers around on their balance sheet, and it doesn't change that ISK does not have value in a legal sense.

See, again: taxes.
Taxes have nothing to do with it. Gambling legislation isn't based on tax law, it's pretty damn simple, if you gamble for something you could pay money for instead it has value and thus needs to be regulated. If you set up a gambling site to gamble for the tour tickets directly it would absolutely need to be regulated.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Is not relevant or related to your original point. We stop kids from doing lots of things because we judge that they're physiologically unlikely to make good decisions. After a certain age we let people make all the bad decisions they want.
Sure it is, because you're of the opinion there is no reason behind the laws than the simple act of havign the laws in place, which is ridiculous. They are there to protect the vulnerable. Trying to get around that won;t work forever.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
ISK does not have value, you are assuming your conclusion and then throwing up things you think lead to that conclusion. That's arguing in bad faith and poor logic.
No, I'm simply debunking all of your reasons that ISK has no value. I mean you'e gone from saying that ISK has no value because it' amounts isn't stated in dollars to ISK has no value because IWI haven't linked to sites to sell it yet. Your entire argument has bben on a wander and changes almost constatnly. The reason fro that is you dont; have an argument, you just have a preconceived conclusion based on your like of EVE gambling sites and you're sticking to it. Hell, you were even incorrectly comparing it to CS:GO skins because you hadn't even look at the case this thread is talking about.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
Personally I don't care about ISK gambling, I've never used any ISK gambling sites nor do I care if they disappear or not. I just hate bad logic and your logic is terrible, as are your claims that 'CCP should be looking into this!'
Yeah right, you totally don't love IWI P

My logic is sound. Fifa Coins and ISK both have a value and gambling for value needs to be regulated thus EVE gambling site would need to be regulated. In the long run law will catch up with them. You're "logic" is to go "nope!" and they make up some random reason why these two are drastically different.

At no point have I said CCP need to do something. It would be better in the long run if they did, since they are directly linked to these gambling site but I couldn't really care less if they did or not. If they want to roll the dice (pun intended) with the legal system of the country they are setting up a new major office in, that's up to them. I just think it's an interesting topic and shows how legals systems are slowly catching up with the modern day world were the lines have been getting pretty blurry for a while.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.