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Mining and Industry Corporations and War Declarations

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Garek Lanister
Ruthless Regiment
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#1 - 2016-08-09 08:06:57 UTC
Since starting up in EVE i've been in more than one Corporation that has been ruined due to PVP Corporations looking for easy targets... So my idea is Could Corporations that enjoy the basics of EVE for Example Mining and Industry etc be allowed to purchase Concorde Protection much like we do renting a station but we'd pay a monthly sum to concord that would stop PVP Corps War Deccing those players that are here just to enjoy the game? Obviously there would have to be restrictions (would only work in High Sec) as other Corps would abuse this. I believe alot more players would return to EVE knowing they can enjoy this game without fear of been War Dec'd as alot of Great Corp communitys are ripped apart as a result of War Decs....
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#2 - 2016-08-09 11:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Althalus Stenory
The question is: how would you make the difference between a "normal" corp and an "industrial and mining corp" ?
2 words: you can't.

Thus, you'll have abuse of this system: almost every corp, even larger and largest while (ab)use of this to be untouchable in high sec.
There is an easy solution for industrial and miners :
- mine somewhere where there are few people in local
- don't afk while mining
- keep an eye on local and warp off if someone (war target) enters in the system
- use an alt out of corp to haul your stuff.

Solution2: pay for surrender.

Yeah, looks like living in nulsec, right ? Not that far, and that's how EVE works.
I agree some people may suffer from war (especially new players in corps), but being a carebear / giving miners and indus an unfair advantage against others is not fair (and shouldn't be done)

-1 for your idea.

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
Sandy Point
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-08-09 17:55:36 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
I agree some people may suffer from war (especially new players in corps), but being a carebear / giving miners and indus an unfair advantage against others is not fair (and shouldn't be done)

-1 for your idea.





How is game mechanics that allow a player(s) to grief a miner by bumping said miner to infinity fair?

How is game mechanics that allow 4 T1 fitted destroyers to blow up a mining ship supposedly built for the rigors of "Deep Space" fair?



Signed "Care Bear" At least I was accused earlier of being one in another thread. Big smile
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#4 - 2016-08-09 21:43:32 UTC
Sandy Point wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
I agree some people may suffer from war (especially new players in corps), but being a carebear / giving miners and indus an unfair advantage against others is not fair (and shouldn't be done)

-1 for your idea.





How is game mechanics that allow a player(s) to grief a miner by bumping said miner to infinity fair?

How is game mechanics that allow 4 T1 fitted destroyers to blow up a mining ship supposedly built for the rigors of "Deep Space" fair?



Signed "Care Bear" At least I was accused earlier of being one in another thread. Big smile


Griefing isn't allowed in Eve so bumping a miner, who refuses to comply with the Code, isn't, by definition, griefing. The miner has options. He can leave. He can log off. He can buy a permit. He can get a friend to come gank the bumper. He can get a webbing alt to come and get him into alignment faster. There, see? No infinite bumping of miners.

Four players working together killing one player? That not only sounds fair it seems like good tactics versus bad. Why was the mining ship there to be attacked in the first place when gankers are around? Sounds like he wasn't paying attention, maybe even AFK. Four players killing the ship of 0 actual players seems even more acceptable. The miner should have been playing, and watching local and Dscan, not doing the laundry.

The people cry for justice, but if you really want to hear them scream... give it to them.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#5 - 2016-08-09 21:48:28 UTC
Garek Lanister wrote:
Since starting up in EVE i've been in more than one Corporation that has been ruined due to PVP Corporations looking for easy targets... So my idea is Could Corporations that enjoy the basics of EVE for Example Mining and Industry etc be allowed to purchase Concorde Protection much like we do renting a station but we'd pay a monthly sum to concord that would stop PVP Corps War Deccing those players that are here just to enjoy the game? Obviously there would have to be restrictions (would only work in High Sec) as other Corps would abuse this. I believe alot more players would return to EVE knowing they can enjoy this game without fear of been War Dec'd as alot of Great Corp communitys are ripped apart as a result of War Decs....



As for the OP, your corporation was ruined by the inability of your leadership to organize defensive actions and the unwillingness of its members to risk ships and ISK to defend themselves. In short, the corporation had no reason to exist in Eve as it was unable to protect what it had. One of the basic rules of Eve is you only own what you keep others from taking.

I know from experience that there are the rare few mining corps who will defend themselves and who can at least justify their existence. The others mainly exist to exploit new players for the benefit of the CEO's who, in every other respect, are incompetent bumblers. Being bad at Eve is no excuse to ruin it for the rest of us.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Sandy Point
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-08-09 22:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandy Point
Keep up with that line of idiotic non-sense and you will continue to see subscriptions to EVE diminish.



Cheers!


Yeah, I know, you gonna say good riddance to the ones who don't renew because they added nothing to the game. I do know one thing they added to the game.... the subscription money paying CCP's bills.
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#7 - 2016-08-10 07:30:05 UTC
Sandy Point wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
I agree some people may suffer from war (especially new players in corps), but being a carebear / giving miners and indus an unfair advantage against others is not fair (and shouldn't be done)

-1 for your idea.





How is game mechanics that allow a player(s) to grief a miner by bumping said miner to infinity fair?

How is game mechanics that allow 4 T1 fitted destroyers to blow up a mining ship supposedly built for the rigors of "Deep Space" fair?
Big smile

Nothing can be "bumped to infinity" anymore, since CCP introduced a "4min max to warp" (not sure about the time, but you get the idea)...

What's wrong about your t1 destroyers ? It's game mechnics to be able to shot whatever you want, but suffering the consequences. Ok, they'll kill some retriever or whatever you are using, then they'll die from concord. Works as expected.
You don't want to be "easily ganked" ? Then use a skiff with tank.

Remember CCP idiome ? "Risk vs Reward". That's it: take a hulk get plenty of isk but you'll get easily ganked, or take a skiff, tank really more with a lesser yield.

You just forget one important thing : space is not safe and never will. High sec is only safer. You are not the only one who's gonna be ganked, even haulers, even missionners, even "incursionners" will be ganked, the latter with far more expensive ship than your "shiny" mining barges.
But the only 2 who cry are miners and haulers because they don't want to assume the risks of what they "half do" (half in a way that those 2 activities are more than often done while half afk).

It's part of the game, and it's not going to change (and I hope CCP is not stupid enough to change it), so if you don't wanna lose your ship, stay docked. :)

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2016-08-15 20:59:39 UTC
Sandy Point wrote:
Keep up with that line of idiotic non-sense and you will continue to see subscriptions to EVE diminish.



Cheers!


Yeah, I know, you gonna say good riddance to the ones who don't renew because they added nothing to the game. I do know one thing they added to the game.... the subscription money paying CCP's bills.


14 years in and people are still saying this.
Vailen Sere
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2016-08-15 22:35:31 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Sandy Point wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
I agree some people may suffer from war (especially new players in corps), but being a carebear / giving miners and indus an unfair advantage against others is not fair (and shouldn't be done)

-1 for your idea.





How is game mechanics that allow a player(s) to grief a miner by bumping said miner to infinity fair?

How is game mechanics that allow 4 T1 fitted destroyers to blow up a mining ship supposedly built for the rigors of "Deep Space" fair?



Signed "Care Bear" At least I was accused earlier of being one in another thread. Big smile


Griefing isn't allowed in Eve so bumping a miner, who refuses to comply with the Code, isn't, by definition, griefing. The miner has options. He can leave. He can log off. He can buy a permit. He can get a friend to come gank the bumper. He can get a webbing alt to come and get him into alignment faster. There, see? No infinite bumping of miners.

Four players working together killing one player? That not only sounds fair it seems like good tactics versus bad. Why was the mining ship there to be attacked in the first place when gankers are around? Sounds like he wasn't paying attention, maybe even AFK. Four players killing the ship of 0 actual players seems even more acceptable. The miner should have been playing, and watching local and Dscan, not doing the laundry.

The people cry for justice, but if you really want to hear them scream... give it to them.



Well, I think if you go around continually killing the same person in high sec, it is considered grieging and therefore a banable offense. High sec ganking... when I spent my high sec days mining, I never saw these code peoples.. I saw the marmites en route selling my mins.. but yeah.

However, risk vs reward? you make less isk mining in any sec space than you do doing equivalent missions / anomalies in the space. For the risk, its currently a negative reward unless at the cost of (full) mining boosts .
Elliniel Anat'al'Ardon
Hallowed Antiquity
#10 - 2016-08-16 08:58:18 UTC
Vailen Sere wrote:
However, risk vs reward? you make less isk mining in any sec space than you do doing equivalent missions / anomalies in the space. For the risk, its currently a negative reward unless at the cost of (full) mining boosts .


Actually, that's not true.

I mine daily and I make more than people who rat do.
Ofcourse, there are different kinds of income.
If I compare my income versus cruisers - it's greater.
Battleships/Marauders - it's somewhat equal.
Carriers - I fall short.

But then again, I fly ships worth ~200mil, while those ratting/plexing in Battleships+/Carriers (not plexing) get more isk/hr by having more tank and higher firepower. But risk more isk if they get dropped by BLOPS/caps.

Not sure where I've seen it, but apparently only 15% of the PvP action happens outside of HighSec space. So why don't you whiney miners just either stop with your AFK activities and/or move to nullsec.
Captain Highfield
#11 - 2016-08-19 16:04:07 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Sandy Point wrote:
Althalus Stenory wrote:
I agree some people may suffer from war (especially new players in corps), but being a carebear / giving miners and indus an unfair advantage against others is not fair (and shouldn't be done)

-1 for your idea.





How is game mechanics that allow a player(s) to grief a miner by bumping said miner to infinity fair?

How is game mechanics that allow 4 T1 fitted destroyers to blow up a mining ship supposedly built for the rigors of "Deep Space" fair?



Signed "Care Bear" At least I was accused earlier of being one in another thread. Big smile


Griefing isn't allowed in Eve so bumping a miner, who refuses to comply with the Code, isn't, by definition, griefing. The miner has options. He can leave. He can log off. He can buy a permit. He can get a friend to come gank the bumper. He can get a webbing alt to come and get him into alignment faster. There, see? No infinite bumping of miners.

Four players working together killing one player? That not only sounds fair it seems like good tactics versus bad. Why was the mining ship there to be attacked in the first place when gankers are around? Sounds like he wasn't paying attention, maybe even AFK. Four players killing the ship of 0 actual players seems even more acceptable. The miner should have been playing, and watching local and Dscan, not doing the laundry.

The people cry for justice, but if you really want to hear them scream... give it to them.


There is a problem with "The Code", not honoring your own terms with 'the permit' aspect; is griefing.

Bumping after being asked to stop, is griefing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2016-08-20 11:46:08 UTC
Captain Highfield wrote:


There is a problem with "The Code", not honoring your own terms with 'the permit' aspect; is griefing.

Bumping after being asked to stop, is griefing.


Neither of those statements are true.
Lord Mudeki
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2016-09-16 14:40:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Captain Highfield wrote:


There is a problem with "The Code", not honoring your own terms with 'the permit' aspect; is griefing.

Bumping after being asked to stop, is griefing.


Neither of those statements are true.



Actually both are true
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#14 - 2016-09-16 17:38:33 UTC
Lord Mudeki wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Captain Highfield wrote:


There is a problem with "The Code", not honoring your own terms with 'the permit' aspect; is griefing.

Bumping after being asked to stop, is griefing.


Neither of those statements are true.



Actually both are true



First of all, the Code is flawless so there are no problems with it

Second. Wow. I've been "asked" to stop thousands of times while bumping miners. I've stopped because someone asked me to, zero. The whole point of bumping someone is to get them to do something they don't immediately agree to. Like buy a permit. Does it make any sense that it would go down like:

Me: BUMP! Buy a mining permit!
Miner: (well, nothing actually because they are AFK)
Me: BUMP! This is New Order territory. All miners must have mining permits and follow the Code!

Miner sits 50 km away from the ice for a while, lasers off, just sitting AFK.

Miner: WHA!?!?!

Me: BUMP! Buy a permit.
Miner: Please stop bumping me. ( I added the please part. They don't actually say please.)
Me: OK, sorry. See you later.

NOT

Per CCP, the miner can "make an effort to move to another location" and if the bumper follows them it can be harassment. They later clarified this to mean several jumps away. To me several is 20 or more. Its never been tested as far as I know. In any case, I've bumped a miner for hours as he obstinately refused to buy a permit and stubbornly kept trying to mine. I know I've had enough petitions filed against me that I have my own little folder at HQ up in Iceland but I haven't been warned, suspended or banned for bumping someone who asked me to stop.

Of course now miners dock up when I enter system so there's much less bumping.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#15 - 2016-09-17 08:50:20 UTC
Vailen Sere wrote:
Well, I think if you go around continually killing the same person in high sec, it is considered grieging and therefore a banable offense.

I don't think that is the case though, since the only players doing such a thing in the game are anti-ganking and I don't think they get banned for it. They even have a whole channel and website devoted to following us around in Highsec no matter where we go. Luckily they are pretty bad at the game and have no negative effect on my gameplay, so it does not feel like griefing.

Evil RatKid
voetius
Grundrisse
#16 - 2016-09-17 21:17:30 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:
Well, I think if you go around continually killing the same person in high sec, it is considered grieging and therefore a banable offense.

I don't think that is the case though, since the only players doing such a thing in the game are anti-ganking and I don't think they get banned for it. They even have a whole channel and website devoted to following us around in Highsec no matter where we go. Luckily they are pretty bad at the game and have no negative effect on my gameplay, so it does not feel like griefing.



I don't think that is true. These anti-gankers that you refer to are within their rights to shoot players that are KOS or flagged as criminals. Did you forget your coffee?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#17 - 2016-09-19 07:42:59 UTC
Garek Lanister wrote:
Since starting up in EVE i've been in more than one Corporation that has been ruined due to PVP Corporations looking for easy targets... So my idea is Could Corporations that enjoy the basics of EVE for Example Mining and Industry etc be allowed to purchase Concorde Protection much like we do renting a station but we'd pay a monthly sum to concord that would stop PVP Corps War Deccing those players that are here just to enjoy the game? Obviously there would have to be restrictions (would only work in High Sec) as other Corps would abuse this. I believe alot more players would return to EVE knowing they can enjoy this game without fear of been War Dec'd as alot of Great Corp communitys are ripped apart as a result of War Decs....


Speaking as a member of a large and relatively solvent alliance, being able to purchase wardec immunity would be extremely convenient for us.

What other immunities might we be able to purchase? One example that springs to mind is that many of us have very low gallente and minmatar standings, owing to years of farming Angel missions. Buying immunity to the faction police would be very handy.

Also I don't really like having to make ISK. It isn't my playstyle and it compromises my freedom. I guess it's OK having to do it once, but I don't see why I should regularly be forced to do something I don't want to. How about if I could purchase immunity from ratting? Pay 1B, receive 100M per month income. I'm not greedy; a couple of bill a month would be ample for me.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#18 - 2016-09-19 15:20:10 UTC
voetius wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Vailen Sere wrote:
Well, I think if you go around continually killing the same person in high sec, it is considered grieging and therefore a banable offense.

I don't think that is the case though, since the only players doing such a thing in the game are anti-ganking and I don't think they get banned for it. They even have a whole channel and website devoted to following us around in Highsec no matter where we go. Luckily they are pretty bad at the game and have no negative effect on my gameplay, so it does not feel like griefing.



I don't think that is true. These anti-gankers that you refer to are within their rights to shoot players that are KOS or flagged as criminals. Did you forget your coffee?

I talked about following around and not simply shooting other players. Wasn't that obvious probably.

Evil RatKid