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Support Battleship?

Author
Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#21 - 2016-09-17 20:39:40 UTC
No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).

Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.

Christopher Mabata
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-09-18 02:52:33 UTC
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).

Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer.


Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Christopher Mabata
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-09-18 02:55:08 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
I like the general idea, but I doubt it'd be tech I.

Given that marauders are essentially PvE ships, I always found the lack of PvP T2 battleships disturbing. This thread might go places- I'll stay tuned!


Well right now it is even really
Marauders are PVE T2 Battleships that can do PVP
And Black Ops do PVP and could possibly do some pve activities if fit right

I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Lugh Crow-Slave
#24 - 2016-09-18 03:43:23 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:

I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls


How is a Cyno jammer the continuation of a hic? And don't most lines end at cruiser level?


"Filling in a hole" is not a good reason to add a ship unless it would A fill a niche and B be balanced. And this would definitely not be an easy thing to balance. You could also argue the niche is already filed by existing tools
Lugh Crow-Slave
#25 - 2016-09-18 03:45:11 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).

Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer.


Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default.


It would be unbalanced even if it was a mod that blocked cynos particularly with the range he wants.
Rawmeat Mary
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#26 - 2016-09-18 12:16:04 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
No full T2 resists like Hacs, but something along the basic Marauder's resists could be nice (no Bastion).

Maybe keeping the ships in the lower BS DPS range would do the trick for ratting issues, maybe limited cap, or make their special module use a lot of cap, so it can't also sustain an active tank withotu cap boosters or cap transfer.


Certainly seems feasible, and after giving it more thought there does need to be a module that does the effect, otherwise having a hull that autoblocks cynos and such could become very broken if say you cloaked it a bit in advance before baiting a fight. It would be like the old "Because of Falcon" bug we saw Yeaaaaaarrrrssss ago or like if a HIC prevented all warping around it by default.


It would be unbalanced even if it was a mod that blocked cynos particularly with the range he wants.

Likely, but then balance comes after an interesting idea becomes a development concept.

Range would certainly be part of that balance.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.

Christopher Mabata
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2016-09-18 16:37:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:

I like this thread more because it continues up a certain skill tree that ends abruptly at cruiser level and could give use to un-specialized 3rd Generation Battleship hulls


How is a Cyno jammer the continuation of a hic? And don't most lines end at cruiser level?


"Filling in a hole" is not a good reason to add a ship unless it would A fill a niche and B be balanced. And this would definitely not be an easy thing to balance. You could also argue the niche is already filed by existing tools



As for the continuity of a tree i see it like this:

Logistics Goes all the way from Frigate class to the FAX with a gap where battleships are in of hull size linear progression
Damage Ships move all the way up to the dreadnought
Mining moves all the way to the rorqual
Drone ships go as far as supercarriers
Im hesitant to say boosts go all the way up to titan class since titans do a lot of things at once
Ewar on the other hand stops at the battleship level with the scorpion being the only EWAR T1 BS hull i know of ( Discussion for another thread)

Now interdictors have just the 2 a destroyer hull that specializes in hit and run area tackle, and a cruiser hull that focuses on super-heavy tackle and area tackle. Adding this concept to the 3rd you get a balance of what interdictors do which is "Breach enemy warp tunnels" according to one of the skillbooks.

This idea while in need of refinement i think fits with the general hull concept:
Interdictor - Pulls enemies out of warp, hit and run area denial through bubbles
Heavy Dictor - Super heavy tackle that fills all of the above roles and has added effects on capital class ships
BS Concept Idea - Disrupts localized use of jump drive technology rather than just even heavier tackle with less movement


Sure its a jump from A to C but i think with the right touch of balance this could at least become something worthy of a bit more discussion, at least thats how i see it. To each their own opinion

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2016-09-19 02:05:04 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:

BS Concept Idea - Disrupts localized use of jump drive technology rather than just even heavier tackle with less movement


With the added distinction that this would not tackle. In my head at least, this would not prevent a capital from jumping out, it would merely "scramble" or prevent a cyno from being lit.

As others have said, balance is critical. The range would be one item to balance, and as I've never flown a (super)cap before, I honestly couldn't say either way what a good balance would be.

Regarding the cost, small gangs may or may not be able to afford it, but if it does what it is intended to do, it might be worth dropping ~500m on a battleship if it protects 1b in fleet assets. The way I see it, if it's a T2 BS, you'll probably have the isk to afford it.

Since there have been a few repeated questions on the matter, I'll repeat again that I do believe this would need to be a completely new hull, just as is the case with the HIC. No other cruisers can mount the bubble generator.

Regarding the point that it would just be a matter of burning down their cyno jammer first, my question is this: If you burn down our jammer ship and we burn down your dps, will we burn down your dps faster than you burn down our cyno jammers? Or logistics? It's not a clear cut case of "primary the cyno jammer and win". Sure if it's a 20+ pilot fleet you can start talking about alphas, but I personally haven't come across many of those while roaming unless we end up in someone's home space and they throw the kitchen sink at us. If they have logistics backing their cyno jammer, and it's a subcap fleet against a subcap fleet, you may find better value targets.

More importantly, I think that this will encourage fleets to more than just make a giant wrecking ball of one type of ship. Doctrines have their obvious benefits, but honestly they're boring as ****. I love flying kitchen sink roams personally.

I'll go RP-mode for a second, if you stop playing spreadsheet simulator and to back to spaceship battles, it's always more fun seeing movies when they've got an assortment of battlegroups, each group having a variety of ships to fill a certain need. A blob of the same ships would all have the same weaknesses and strengths.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#29 - 2016-09-19 02:23:47 UTC
A t2 BB based of the tire 3 hull would be about 1b of based on the other hulls it would be 800-950 just like the current ones.


It would be a matter of just killing the James as that will remove dps be asure good as killing a cap as far as to isk war and once you can light your Cyno it doesn't matter if up to that point you have lost more dps you have now just won
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#30 - 2016-09-19 02:27:01 UTC
This idea is generally terrible, but I would also like to know what else this ship could do? This does not seem like a very fun or interesting ship to fly, it just prevents hot-drop-o-clock, which is generally fun for all concerned.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2016-09-19 03:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
FT Diomedes wrote:
This idea is generally terrible, but I would also like to know what else this ship could do? This does not seem like a very fun or interesting ship to fly, it just prevents hot-drop-o-clock, which is generally fun for all concerned.


It is about as much fun as flying a HIC or logistics. You serve a role. Your role may not land you on the killboards (which in this case I imagine such a cynodictor would still have guns to shoot with) but it would indeed be a role served for the win.

Consider the following:
1) Your hunter finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno
2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick, something/anything to kill the carrier)
3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and counter-drops you
4) You whelp on bait


Both sides had fun (if you call losing fun).

Versus:
1) Your tackle finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno
2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick) along with one of these cyno jammers
3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and lights a cyno
4) You say Stop! Jammertime! Go with the flow, it is said,If you can't groove to this then you probably are dead
4.5) Enemy carrier dies

Net result, both sides had fun (if you call losing fun).

Hot-drop-o-clock is indeed fun. Getting baited is "one of the risks". What does the bait ship risk? Very little considering they're tanked up to the 9s and have a significant fleet ready to roflstomp whatever lands on it. That's not to say you can't counter-counter-drop, and so on and so forth, but really how often does that happen?

Much like logi-love, you get to be known amongst your corp/alliance/fleet as the one that saved the whole fleet. Epeens will swell and everyone will have a grand time.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-09-19 03:18:08 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
It would be a matter of just killing the James as that will remove dps be asure good as killing a cap as far as to isk war and once you can light your Cyno it doesn't matter if up to that point you have lost more dps you have now just won


If you lose too much DPS before you break their logistics, are you going to kill their cynodictor? (I'm calling it a cynodictor because that seems a relevant name).

If you can blap it sure. That ends the fight. But if you can't blap it, maybe you can blap their logi first. Or their DPS, so they don't blap yours.

Or maybe you ignore it because your capitals are just getting jumped in from outside of the jam radius and will warp in.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#33 - 2016-09-19 03:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Either it's ehp will be low enough that several will be blapable in a large fight or it will be so high that small groups will not stand a chance.

I need to ask have you ever been in a large fleet fight (400+)


As for warping in that will not be an option in null sec where it takes no time at all to get bubbles using HICs and DICS into place and capitals are not fast enough to burn through these
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#34 - 2016-09-19 03:56:56 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
This idea is generally terrible, but I would also like to know what else this ship could do? This does not seem like a very fun or interesting ship to fly, it just prevents hot-drop-o-clock, which is generally fun for all concerned.


It is about as much fun as flying a HIC or logistics. You serve a role. Your role may not land you on the killboards (which in this case I imagine such a cynodictor would still have guns to shoot with) but it would indeed be a role served for the win.

Consider the following:
1) Your hunter finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno
2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick, something/anything to kill the carrier)
3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and counter-drops you
4) You whelp on bait


Both sides had fun (if you call losing fun).

Versus:
1) Your tackle finds a carrier ratting, tackles it and lights a cyno
2) Your "something" bridges in (or your dreads jump in, take your pick) along with one of these cyno jammers
3) Enemy carrier says lol bait surprise and lights a cyno
4) You say Stop! Jammertime! Go with the flow, it is said,If you can't groove to this then you probably are dead
4.5) Enemy carrier dies

Net result, both sides had fun (if you call losing fun).

Hot-drop-o-clock is indeed fun. Getting baited is "one of the risks". What does the bait ship risk? Very little considering they're tanked up to the 9s and have a significant fleet ready to roflstomp whatever lands on it. That's not to say you can't counter-counter-drop, and so on and so forth, but really how often does that happen?

Much like logi-love, you get to be known amongst your corp/alliance/fleet as the one that saved the whole fleet. Epeens will swell and everyone will have a grand time.


The HIC is a very fun ship to fly - especially the Onyx in small gang fights. It can completely shut down a kiting gang - if they make the mistake of coming with 37km of you. The drawback is that you cannot be remote repaired with your point active or your bubble up. And it's fun in large fleets too. In a large fleet fight, where you have multiple Carriers or Supercapitals tackled, you have to carefully coordinate your point/bubble to avoid dying, without letting the hostiles escape. You have to fly a HIC - maintaining awareness of your relative position to your fleet and the enemy and awareness of your point cycle, EHP, and etc. relative to your fellow HIC pilots.

The ship you describe does not seem to have any skill associated with using it, nor does it appear to have any drawbacks. The ship you describe is a 500 km sphere of boring. You are proposing a ship that basically you bridge in and put the blocker up and then focus on your main. Not to mention that it's a ship that literally has no purpose other than to keep other players from coming to a fight, which is the opposite of exciting.

Nearly every new ship and every new change that CCP has made has the goal of making Eve combat more unpredictable and more interactive. Your proposal is the opposite of that.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Christopher Mabata
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-09-19 04:52:43 UTC
1. Not my proposal
2. I suggested several times balancing the range
3. I suggested the ship use an active module multiple times
4. A good point regarding that last line of text and it being the opposite of the goal
5. Ship does need to do other things and requires balancing, Polish not included in OP Post
6. Some skill level should be required, what makes it do this however is the discussion needed

@Diomedes
(combined post too long to quote)

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#36 - 2016-09-19 07:54:40 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

The HIC is a very fun ship to fly - especially the Onyx in small gang fights. It can completely shut down a kiting gang - if they make the mistake of coming with 37km of you. The drawback is that you cannot be remote repaired with your point active or your bubble up. And it's fun in large fleets too. In a large fleet fight, where you have multiple Carriers or Supercapitals tackled, you have to carefully coordinate your point/bubble to avoid dying, without letting the hostiles escape. You have to fly a HIC - maintaining awareness of your relative position to your fleet and the enemy and awareness of your point cycle, EHP, and etc. relative to your fellow HIC pilots.

The ship you describe does not seem to have any skill associated with using it, nor does it appear to have any drawbacks. The ship you describe is a 500 km sphere of boring. You are proposing a ship that basically you bridge in and put the blocker up and then focus on your main. Not to mention that it's a ship that literally has no purpose other than to keep other players from coming to a fight, which is the opposite of exciting.

Nearly every new ship and every new change that CCP has made has the goal of making Eve combat more unpredictable and more interactive. Your proposal is the opposite of that.

Personally I'd like to see the range, something in the 75 to 100 km range, basically forcing your to either warp or MJD to your target after landing. This in itself makes things more interesting, for bridging in Subcaps.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#37 - 2016-09-19 08:18:46 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

Personally I'd like to see the range, something in the 75 to 100 km range, basically forcing your to either warp or MJD to your target after landing. This in itself makes things more interesting, for bridging in Subcaps.



the majority of things using the cyno can't mjd and will not be able to warp before bubbles are up. you would simply be forced to kill off the enemy cyno jammers b4 your own.


the problems with turning the mobile cyno jammer into a ship mod is that it gives up everything used to balance it.
the two biggest ones being

lighting a cyno then imminently stopping your enemy

blocking entire grids


the mobile unit takes 60 seconds to online and can not be anchored with in 100km of another one ensuring gaps in the coverage
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#38 - 2016-09-19 08:53:50 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:

Personally I'd like to see the range, something in the 75 to 100 km range, basically forcing your to either warp or MJD to your target after landing. This in itself makes things more interesting, for bridging in Subcaps.



the majority of things using the cyno can't mjd and will not be able to warp before bubbles are up. you would simply be forced to kill off the enemy cyno jammers b4 your own.

I was talking in reference to Bridging subcaps, not jumping in Caps/Supers. There are lots of Subcaps that MJD or be MJD'd by a Command Destroyer.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the problems with turning the mobile cyno jammer into a ship mod is that it gives up everything used to balance it.
the two biggest ones being

lighting a cyno then imminently stopping your enemy

blocking entire grids


the mobile unit takes 60 seconds to online and can not be anchored with in 100km of another one ensuring gaps in the coverage

If you have enough of these on field to block an entire grid you deserve the control of the grid. As for the timing of things, you could make it have a warmup cycle like the Entosis modules.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#39 - 2016-09-19 13:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
The only way this idea could be made workable is if you made it a module, not a new ship. Some suggestions:

This module could only be fitted to Battlecruisers and Battleships that do not have jump drives (i.e. T1, Faction, Command Ships, Marauders, not Black Ops).

It takes a utility high slot.

Give it substantial fitting costs - the T1 version is like a cynosural field generator. The T2 version gets higher fitting costs and costs more.

Put a fitting restriction on it such that fitting one is not possible if you have a cynosural field generator fitted to your ship.

Like a cynosural field generator, it consumes Liquid Ozone or some other such fuel. I'd suggest 100-250 LO per cycle at max skills.

The T1 version gets 30km range and blocks regular cynosural fields only.

The T2 version gets 30km range and blocks regular and covert cynosural fields.

When activated, it acts like a warp disruption field generator in terms of penalties (you can still move, albeit slowly).

You can MJD or be MJDed with it active, unless you are warp scrambled.

You cannot warp, dock, take a bridge, jump gate, or tether with it active.

One minute cycle time, one minute weapons timer (like a bastion module).

Entering a POS force field automatically disables the module.

Activating the module untethers you.

You cannot be remote repaired while the module is active.

Now you have a module that has some situational uses, but is not totally boring and OP. It keeps someone from hotdropping right on top of you, but only if you are paying attention and activate it before they do.

Veteran forum posters might say that an idea with that many restrictions is a bad idea, but I believe it could be workable with the above.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2016-09-19 15:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
FT Diomedes wrote:

This module could only be fitted to Battlecruisers and Battleships that do not have jump drives (i.e. T1, Faction, Command Ships, Marauders, not Black Ops).

I would go a step further with this and say that the module can only be fit to a special hull. Just like with HICs. This makes it exceedingly easy to identify which ship(s) is(are) running the module

FT Diomedes wrote:

It takes a utility high slot.

Give it substantial fitting costs - the T1 version is like a cynosural field generator. The T2 version gets higher fitting costs and costs more.

Also agree with this. Given the power in controlling the field, you can't have this ship contributing in other meaningful ways.

FT Diomedes wrote:

Put a fitting restriction on it such that fitting one is not possible if you have a cynosural field generator fitted to your ship.

Like a cynosural field generator, it consumes Liquid Ozone or some other such fuel. I'd suggest 100-250 LO per cycle at max skills.

Excellent ideas, having the mutual exclusion will prevent people from playing games (turn off, light, turn on)
FT Diomedes wrote:

The T1 version gets 30km range and blocks regular cynosural fields only.

The T2 version gets 30km range and blocks regular and covert cynosural fields.

I would still argue for a bit more range, 30km still puts jumped in capitals well within optimal for non-brawling fits.
FT Diomedes wrote:

When activated, it acts like a warp disruption field generator in terms of penalties (you can still move, albeit slowly).

You can MJD or be MJDed with it active, unless you are warp scrambled.

You cannot warp, dock, take a bridge, jump gate, or tether with it active.

One minute cycle time, one minute weapons timer (like a bastion module).

Entering a POS force field automatically disables the module.

Activating the module untethers you.

Agree with all of these as well. These are all excellent.

The only one I disagree with is remote reps. If you deny remote reps, then it becomes a simple DPS race as was mentioned to kill the cyno jammers first. If you allow remote reps, then all of a sudden it may not be the clear-cut path to kill their jammer first. If they're light on logistics, maybe you can pop their logistics first to burn theirs down faster, if they're light on dps maybe you can reduce their dps below critical values (such that they can no longer break your logistics). Once they've lost too much DPS, they've lost reinforcements because they can't jump in more.

As a potential compromise/solution to having unbreakable cyno jammers, perhaps a (strength to be discussed) penalty to remote reps? Oh... how about diminishing returns on reps? That would likely take a significant code change from CCP, but it would certainly mean that cyno jammers could stay up for a while, but without relief they would eventually eat it.
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