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Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

First post
Author
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#721 - 2016-09-18 17:44:35 UTC
Exaido wrote:
Gankwins law. All forum threads eventually end in Code?

Yeap. After one or two pages you've heard all there is to hear. Haven't been on the forums for more than a semester and I can already predict 75% of who's gonna say what.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#722 - 2016-09-18 17:48:43 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
It wasn't in relation to anything said here, as I didn't bother reading it.
Many people have tried arguing with Lucas before, including me. We've proven him wrong on so many occasions, but he's just living in his tiny little dream world and the only facts he deems worthwhile are those supporting his opinion.


You don't bother reading what he said ShockedRoll Well how the hell can you make a judgement on him

There's a tiny little word you forgot. Guess it didn't fit your viewpoint, did it?

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Lacori
Doomheim
#723 - 2016-09-18 17:58:06 UTC
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#724 - 2016-09-18 18:06:27 UTC
I'm starting to notice how a lot of people here tend to make statements claiming to be fact without posting a single link to back up their claim. At least I try to post links. Ok, some links might not be so informative but at least you get an idea of where I'm getting my information from without forcing anyone to do the legwork.

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6d_LAShcEQ
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#725 - 2016-09-18 18:12:34 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Linus Gorp wrote:
It wasn't in relation to anything said here, as I didn't bother reading it.
Many people have tried arguing with Lucas before, including me. We've proven him wrong on so many occasions, but he's just living in his tiny little dream world and the only facts he deems worthwhile are those supporting his opinion.


You don't bother reading what he said ShockedRoll Well how the hell can you make a judgement on him

There's a tiny little word you forgot. Guess it didn't fit your viewpoint, did it?


It does not matter if you put here in your sentence, you are replying back and making a comment about him in a thread where you have not read what he posted. Roll

Nothing to do with my viewpoint, more to do with actually reading and comprehension, just saying he is terrible because of feelings is bullshite and a lot of posters on these forums are like that. Shocked

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#726 - 2016-09-18 18:14:02 UTC
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
I'm starting to notice how a lot of people here tend to make statements claiming to be fact without posting a single link to back up their claim. At least I try to post links. Ok, some links might not be so informative but at least you get an idea of where I'm getting my information from without forcing anyone to do the legwork.

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6d_LAShcEQ


Well unless you can get access to CCP's database your links are not worth much either, earlier you linked to a thread on Reddit that was mostly made up of rubbish, I knew I read most of it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#727 - 2016-09-18 18:20:20 UTC
That's because on an open forum, no evidence is required. It's all about opinions-- it's not like we're going to court, right?

Also, anyone is free to attribute value to certain opinions based on personal experience, parallels or 'perceived' indirect evidence (for example, killboards). I don't care if a hundred posters tell me X is impossible, when I've seen X happen first hand.

It's like those threads where people ask "but why do you need this?" -- well let me ask you, why do we even need to justify concepts, opinions?

It's not even about being right or wrong- it's about sharing viewpoints and ideas. What is common sense for me may be stupidity to you. That's not necessarily a bad thing- it's freedom of thought, freedom of speech. Why such things have to be debated for 20+ pages though... beats me. You say yours. I say mine. What you said may or may not influence my thoughts in the future. Eventually, I'll be the judge about whether or not statements have merit (in my eyes).

Example: studies indicate the new icons are better for my eyes. My eyes disagree. Thirty college professors may insist they really are better- my eyes still won't agree. If there were one universal truth in life, we would all embrace it. Forums wouldn't even exist for that matter.

One man's fact is another man's 'skewed data', because we can't even agree on how proper study and analysis should be conducted. Pretty sure Baltec thinks he's given "proof". So does Lucas. I didn't even need proof, I have traveled New Eden myself- I have eyes. To hel with the numbers Blink
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#728 - 2016-09-18 18:21:58 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
I'm starting to notice how a lot of people here tend to make statements claiming to be fact without posting a single link to back up their claim. At least I try to post links. Ok, some links might not be so informative but at least you get an idea of where I'm getting my information from without forcing anyone to do the legwork.

I'll just leave this here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6d_LAShcEQ


Well unless you can get access to CCP's database your links are not worth much either, earlier you linked to a thread on Reddit that was mostly made up of rubbish, I knew I read most of it.


Oh well. Better than no link at least. Roll
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#729 - 2016-09-18 18:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Dracvlad wrote:
Lucas Kell is one the best most honest and consistent posters on these forums, he gives reasoned arguments and has an excellent knowledge of the game he has played as a ganker and does indy to a high level. He has accurately assessed the issues with hisec and if CCP had the brains to speak to him about the game they might just have a chance to turn it around.

No one in this thread has proven him wrong on anything, all they have done is chanted a religion back at him.
His viewpoint matches yours, hence you consider him to be all that you claim.

Basically your entire post is opinion, as such it's debatable.

I would argue that the forum lost one of its most honest, consistent and knowledgeable posters when Tippia decided to call it quits, however that is my opinion and I won't try to present it as a fact.

Although you're free to disagree with my statement of opinion, I dare say that many people would agree with it.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#730 - 2016-09-18 19:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Giaus Felix wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lucas Kell is one the best most honest and consistent posters on these forums, he gives reasoned arguments and has an excellent knowledge of the game he has played as a ganker and does indy to a high level. He has accurately assessed the issues with hisec and if CCP had the brains to speak to him about the game they might just have a chance to turn it around.

No one in this thread has proven him wrong on anything, all they have done is chanted a religion back at him.
His viewpoint matches yours, hence you consider him to be all that you claim.

Basically your entire post is opinion, as such it's debatable.

I would argue that the forum lost one of its most honest, consistent and knowledgeable posters when Tippia decided to call it quits, however that is my opinion and I won't try to present it as a fact.

Although you're free to disagree with my statement of opinion, I dare say that many people would agree with it.


Of course I disagree, I found Tippia an obnoxious troll who went after anyone in a nasty way that had different opinions to her, I saw some of the attack posts that person did and after that person left the games the forums improved a lot., Tippia however did make some good points, as does baltec1. That is my opinion.

The fact is most times you can look at what people say and see where they are coming from, being able to get into the shoes of other people to see where they are coming from is a skill that a lot of forum posters here do not have, or perhaps more like do not bother to have. Big smile

I look for people who acknowledge other peoples points, I see Lucas Kell doing that, I have yet to see Shae, baltec1, Jenn a'Snide do that, Teckos did it once much to my amazement. Most of the time all I see is religious chanting of HTFU which is rather amusing.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#731 - 2016-09-18 20:10:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Imbalanced ganking hurts the game, it is simply like conserving fish stocks, if you over fish then don't be surprised if the fish start disappearing, that is Eve in a nutshell...



33,706 players online right now.

the fish stocks aren't as bad as some would like others to think they are.

Is there an Imbalance as you are claiming there is. i would say yes there is, but it's not in the game mechanics.

The Imbalance seems to me to be within players opinions on why they think numbers are down. nothing new to mmorpg's in general but for some reason it seems to fuel peoples entitlement fix.

also all games have a shelf life with people, not everyone is going to play EVE forever and why any of you would expect that from a person is feckin insane.

ganking has been with EVE for as long as i've been playing the game and i can't see it going away anytime soon.

but why do people kill easy targets.... hahahahaha for feck sake.. why does anyone kill easy targets.

lazy ass easy no planning needed PVP is about the size of it.

does ganking have a place in EVE,, Hell yes!

just as much as any players style of play has a place here in EVE,,, if CCP allow it then tuff luck. In general gank tactics can be seen a mile away and are easly defended against.

this thread should be closed because it serves no purpose but for you few foolish people who believe you know how to fix EVE,, hahahahaha get yourselves an application form and go work for CCP they obviously need you ;)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#732 - 2016-09-18 20:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Imbalanced ganking hurts the game, it is simply like conserving fish stocks, if you over fish then don't be surprised if the fish start disappearing, that is Eve in a nutshell...



33,706 players online right now.

the fish stocks aren't as bad as some would like others to think they are.

Is there an Imbalance as you are claiming there is. i would say yes there is, but it's not in the game mechanics.

The Imbalance seems to me to be within players opinions on why they think numbers are down. nothing new to mmorpg's in general but for some reason it seems to fuel peoples entitlement fix.

also all games have a shelf life with people, not everyone is going to play EVE forever and why any of you would expect that from a person is feckin insane.

ganking has been with EVE for as long as i've been playing the game and i can't see it going away anytime soon.

but why do people kill easy targets.... hahahahaha for feck sake.. why does anyone kill easy targets.

lazy ass easy no planning needed PVP is about the size of it.

does ganking have a place in EVE,, Hell yes!

just as much as any players style of play has a place here in EVE,,, if CCP allow it then tuff luck. In general gank tactics can be seen a mile away and are easly defended against.

this thread should be closed because it serves no purpose but for you few foolish people who believe you know how to fix EVE,, hahahahaha get yourselves an application form and go work for CCP they obviously need you ;)


I have said that ganking has a place in Eve, as does Lucas Kell, both of us believe that it is imbalanced and too easy. If I had $1 for every cretin who tells me that I am saying that ganking has no place in Eve I would be rich by now. Roll

EDIT: Gankers do plan, they are very good at that part...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#733 - 2016-09-18 21:05:25 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Lucas this is completely jibberish. This does not show that "the more PvP there is per player, the less players there are". HS combat is not dependent on number of jumps. If more people jump there will most likely not be more high sec combat, a lot of ships can jump without ever getting attacked (interceptors/covops/T3s).
I can't be bothered to re-explain it, so I'll simply say you've misread it, go back and read it again.

sero Hita wrote:
For there to be a correlation there has a dependency.
According to baltec that's incorrect. For a correlation there has two be two metrics at the same time and someone to point at both of them and say "Look!"

sero Hita wrote:
What you are claiming makes no sense. Just look any textbook on how to work with correlations.
I don;t need to, I'm well versed in correlations and specifically how correlation does not imply causation, but since the person I'd discussing this with doesn't get that distinction, I don't need to care about it either. At the very lest my two statistics have a direct relation and are measured in the same way.

Dracvlad wrote:
You don't bother reading what he said ShockedRoll Well how the hell can you make a judgement on him, and I have been in a lot of threads and all I see is people repeating the same old HTFU rubbish at him as if that is some sort of religion.
Yeah, something I said at some point got him riled up and now he materialises in threads I'm in to complain about me until ISDs come and delete his off topic posts. Best is to just skip over his posts.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#734 - 2016-09-18 21:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Dracvlad wrote:
Of course I disagree, I found Tippia an obnoxious troll who went after anyone in a nasty way that had different opinions to her, I saw some of the attack posts that person did and after that person left the games the forums improved a lot., Tippia however did make some good points, as does baltec1. That is my opinion.

The fact is most times you can look at what people say and see where they are coming from, being able to get into the shoes of other people to see where they are coming from is a skill that a lot of forum posters here do not have, or perhaps more like do not bother to have. Big smile

I look for people who acknowledge other peoples points, I see Lucas Kell doing that, I have yet to see Shae, baltec1, Jenn a'Snide do that, Teckos did it once much to my amazement. Most of the time all I see is religious chanting of HTFU which is rather amusing.
The same could be said of yourself or Lucas, as well as many of the other posters on these forums, subjectivity is a wonderful thing. I've seen you go after posters for completely pathetic reasons in the past, and I have no doubt that I'll see you do it again, so don't try and pull the "holier than thou" spiel.

I disagree with your statement about people not being able to see where others are coming from, firstly it's not a fact but your opinion, secondly many of the people that you disparage as not being able to do so seem to be the ones that are attempting to maintain the "purity" of Eve in line with CCP's original vision, that's not necessarily a bad thing in the face of people who think it should become more like other games.

HTFU is was CCP's tagline, the people who believe in that, despite CCP's attempts to water the game down in the pursuit of more players, may well be selfish in their desire to see it remain a brutal unforgiving environment; but no more so than those who believe that it should become something that it was never designed to be.

IMHO CCP have become their own worst enemy over the last few years, and they may well be the cause of their own demise. Hilmar and company seem to be falling back into the abyss of hubris; meanwhile I'm sat on enough isk that I can sit and watch them burn over the next 3 or 4 years without paying them a penny.

Conversely I'd be happy to be proven wrong, I have several years invested in Eve and have enjoyed the experience, despite my initial horror when I ended up as a burning wreck in a gatecamp in week 2, and will continue to play until either real life interrupts, or CCP turn it into a parody of the game I started playing all those years ago; I'm hoping that the former is why I stop playing, and not the latter.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#735 - 2016-09-18 21:09:52 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
[

I have said that ganking has a place in Eve, as does Lucas Kell, both of us believe that it is imbalanced and too easy. If I had $1 for every cretin who tells me that I am saying that ganking has no place in Eve I would be rich by now. Roll

EDIT: Gankers do plan, they are very good at that part...


lucas can talk for himself you can let his hand go Roll he's a big boy and well able to speak for himself.

I'm no cretin Drac.

your reply answered nothing. it stated nothing that we all don't know already.

I'll say it again, ganking is easy to deal with in most cases.

CCP have made it harder to gank yet you guys want it to be even harder than it currently is. so why do you not tackle the other side of ganking?

we both agree ganking has a place in EVE,,,, hell it's needed.

so....... it's easy to defend against yet poeple seem to make the same stupid mistakes over and over which make them easy targets.
so why do you not question the fact that maybe these people you wish to save are just beyond saving and wouldn't stick around in EVE anyway. i've seen quite a few of them pass through my corp over the years, they won't listen to sense and refuse to deal with a threat when it happens,, they scream CCP should stop these people and make it safer in high sec for all those that do not wish to take part in PVP,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, oh bleeding hearts of the world unite!

it''s never going to change, EVE is for some and not for others and it's that simple.

this thread was about why people cannot seem to understand that how people play a game has nothing to do with how they are in real life, but it wasnt' long before the same few jumped on in with their opinions on how to fix EVE.
as if EVE is broken in some way, and if CCP don't listen to the few and make the changes they want then EVE is dead.

all bollox talk. nothing more.





Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#736 - 2016-09-18 21:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I have said that ganking has a place in Eve, as does Lucas Kell, both of us believe that it is imbalanced and too easy. If I had $1 for every cretin who tells me that I am saying that ganking has no place in Eve I would be rich by now. Roll

EDIT: Gankers do plan, they are very good at that part...
lucas can talk for himself you can let his hand go Roll he's a big boy and well able to speak for himself.
Sure I can. I agree with Dracvlad's comment there, ganking has a place in EVE and should never be removed. It should however be open to balance passes, encouragement should be made to steer people towards ganking more veteran targets and less rookies and ganking counterplay needs some serious work.

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
I'll say it again, ganking is easy to deal with in most cases.
It's easy to avoid if you have experience, not so easy to "deal with" since there's basically no reliable counter mechanics. I'd much rather see ganking erupt into a two sided battle.

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
CCP have made it harder to gank yet you guys want it to be even harder than it currently is. so why do you not tackle the other side of ganking?
I do. Like I've stated multiple times in the past, counters need to be improved. The problem is that gankers whine about that too, so if gankers are just going to disregard every idea to improve counters then I'm quite happy to support CCP nerfing them into the ground instead, as building both sides up from a cleaner slate would be preferable to maintaining the status quo. Obviously the ideal solution is that gankers get on board and the system is balanced from where it currently sits, but ah well, gankers are unreasonable folk.

xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
so....... it's easy to defend against yet poeple seem to make the same stupid mistakes over and over which make them easy targets.
There will always be inexperienced players unless new players cease to show up, and gankers will always target the inexperienced as they gain the most for the least effort.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#737 - 2016-09-18 21:55:13 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


gankers will always target the inexperienced as they gain the most for the least effort.


So the best thning that could happen to players is for them to experience a gank and learn from it as fast as possible.

i mean that's the only way to shake off this inexperience you speak of. unless you have something else in mind.

how else do you suggest they become aware of a gank and learn to deal with it?

we are talking about those that refuse to listen and only having it happen to them has a chance of making them snap out of it and deal with the gank or any other threat in the game.
if that means no AFK play, no shite ship fits and flying the correct ship, being aware of your surroundings, using DS and be very aware of possible threats in each area of the galaxy and if you can,,, you fly with them on an alt to learn their wicked ways.

I'm interested to hear what you suggest should be done. i mean there will always be inexperienced players who become easy targets.

what's your fix.


oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#738 - 2016-09-18 22:23:34 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


gankers will always target the inexperienced as they gain the most for the least effort.


So the best thning that could happen to players is for them to experience a gank and learn from it as fast as possible.

i mean that's the only way to shake off this inexperience you speak of. unless you have something else in mind.

how else do you suggest they become aware of a gank and learn to deal with it?

we are talking about those that refuse to listen and only having it happen to them has a chance of making them snap out of it and deal with the gank or any other threat in the game.
if that means no AFK play, no shite ship fits and flying the correct ship, being aware of your surroundings, using DS and be very aware of possible threats in each area of the galaxy and if you can,,, you fly with them on an alt to learn their wicked ways.

I'm interested to hear what you suggest should be done. i mean there will always be inexperienced players who become easy targets.

what's your fix.





I don't think getting ganked 6 times the first couple days is a healthy learning experience.
Yet that's how often my test alt only a few days old was attacked by CODE.

It is obvious this game has a new player retention issue.

I think CODE and organizations like them are in fact killing this game, and I think they know it.


Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#739 - 2016-09-18 22:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaac Armer
baltec1 wrote:
Its hard to be a pirate if there is nothing for you to pirate.


I'm not sure my point could have gone farther over your head. What's the point of piracy, in your mind in this game?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#740 - 2016-09-18 22:43:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I don't think getting ganked 6 times the first couple days is a healthy learning experience.
Yet that's how often my test alt only a few days old was attacked by CODE.
Did you ask how to avoid it happening again or did you take it personally? The first leads to learning, the second to ridicule and repeated ganking.

Quote:
It is obvious this game has a new player retention issue.
This game had a new player retention problem long before the rise of James 315 and his band of motley miscreants. The nature of the game is the primary cause of that retention problem, it being somewhat more cutthroat than the common fare of MMO's.

Quote:
I think CODE and organizations like them are in fact killing this game, and I think they know it.
You give them entirely too much credit, CODE. are easy to avoid if you put in a little effort.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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