Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I can fly a golem, the thing makes you sleepy running L4s same with the rattlesnake. The popularity of a ship is irrelevant. i already put 2 hardeners and an active on the ship it still doesnt solve the ships essential problem that it is a weaker defense ship due to its resists not fitting its shield tank.

Also, get a different ship doesnt solve a ships problem either.

It doesnt have to begin and end with pve, but this not such a specialized ship as an logistics ship one my reasonable expect would mostly or entirely be used for pvp.

If a ship has to play to its own resist hole it is seriously disadvantaged compared to ships that dont find themselves in the same situation. I could fly a boat that is armor tanked the amarr certainly have them but fly another ship doesn't fix the ship you want to fly's problem.

I appreciate the advice but this still just moves the problem for the ship from a resist hole to a ship not living up to its dps potential because the ship is trying to bootstrap a solution to its core problem of having a misaligned tanking style to its resistance profile.

Use a different ship doesnt solve the nightmares problem.

Yes, every ship has resist holes and im all for that, it makes for VERY interesting game play, but not every ship has the completely non-nonsensical misalignment between its tanking style and its resistance profile.

Also, not every ship needs to have its resistance and tanking style aligned either, the rattlesnake for instance is misaligned as well but it has a tanking bonus, deals it's full damage potential at stupefying ranges, selectable damage type (and well we could go on for an hour how OP the rattlesnake is) but the point being it is so OP it could have ZERO inherent resists, not shield, armor or tank and still be OP.

The nightmare isnt accompanied by so many other factors contributing to its overall capability, in fact it carries a host of crippling factors: cap issues, tracking concerns, optimal concerns, being target disrupted (by npcs it is supposed to fight), needing damage mods, needing defense mods, a misaligned tank to resist profile, limited damage dealing selection. The nightmare has to pay homage to too many masters and solving its tank alignment would certainly bring its viability for the most part to a level that other pirate ships enjoy (okay no were near the rattlesnake that thing needs hammered hard with the nerf bat).

Your argument that EM resist mods would have to be nerfed has no basis, in fact, the resistance level for both armor and shields is 55% for active hardeners and these fit onto ships whether or not their tanking aligns with their resistance profile or not. It is just that if your ship has misaligned tanking to resist profile you get 55% resist in EM whereas if they are aligned as they are in the apocalypse navy issue the base EM armor resist is already 55% even before you add a defense mod, so adding a 55% armor hardener on top of that gets you somewhere around 79.75%, where a nightmare would only have 55% in the same case. This is precisely the problem and precisely why it needs fixed.

I chose the apoc navy as comparison since comparing a T1 to a pirate faction isnt a fair comparison. The navy apoc has 20 slots available to it and the nightmare only has 19, the navy apoc has 400 calibration while the nightmare has only 350. So again the navy apoc has more room for defense and starts in a better place to begin with (the nightmare does benefit from being pirate, im not saying it doesnt it just doesnt benefit enough to offset all the crutches it has to deal with).

I also have flown all the missile boats you mentioned and have never felt they needed to have their tanks aligned with their resistance profiles. The reasons are that the sum total of the ship means that filling the resist holes is a non-issue. Lets compare a missile boat to the nightmare.

Missile boat: selectable damage, full damage application regardless of range, ability to hit any NPC that im aware of even if that npc is in a fast frigate and you are using torpedos to blast it at point blank range, capacitor is a complete non-issue, your guns dont need it you'll never run out unless you are underskilled SP wise to fly the ship. Ability to speed tank without any concern that your damage will be reduced because of it. Plenty of slots for both offense and defense mods and plenty of calibration even on pirate missile boats like the rattlesnake (you'll never feel like the rattlesnake is underpowered in anyway at all while mission running).

Nightmare: must deal with tracking disruption from its primary opponents (blood, sansha), needs optimal, needs tracking, cannot hit small ships if they get, 'under your guns', has less calibration than most of the ships you listed and overall has less callibration + slots than even the rattlesnake. Doesnt have selectable damage dealing, has to be concerned with speed tanking because it reduces its own damage levels, has to be concerned with range because it reduces its own damage dealing. Has to try and somehow come up with defense while having to also stack a bunch of other mods just to allow it to stay engaged in combat long enough and have its weapons actually work (tracking comps, sebos, optimals, tracking enhancers) while still needing heat sinks in its low slots to get its damage up.

In short missile boats generally and the rattlesnake will always, outperform the local turret ship running missions. While this is acceptable in some cases; for instance, i flew a machariel (local turret pirate ship) in angel space and it felt good at damage dealing and had plenty of defense, no cap issues and plenty of space for things like tracking comps. This is not the case for the nightmare (local turret pirate ship) that is sub par do to its misaligned tanking and defense profile.

p.s. the -1 thing is just tacky.

You're right and I really want to use an ibis but I fly in capital fights or should be given dread tank and dps so I can fly out

I believe that, for RP and other purposes (see: TS armour mods), the Nightmare is apparently supposed to be armour tanked...and indeed the slot layout may have been different in days of yore.

Pretty much the above. All I'm seeing in this thread is people saying the Nightmare is perfectly fine the way it is (spoiler warning: it is) and the OP complaining that CCP won't give him what he's crying for.

This points to the problem and not the solution: the nightmare has too many masters to serve, you cannot add all those hardeners without giving up dps. Yes all ships have a trade off between gank and tank ive flown BSs from all four races and their pirate faction mixes.

Lets take the caldari missile boats, they have an EM hole and almost an Thermal hole as well but they have very little else to worry about, my raven fit had all the tank it ever needed and never had application, cap issues or any of the rest of the host of crippling problems facing the nightmare. Even other amarr based ships (those armor tanked) dont have so many masters to serve because 2 hardeners and a rep and they are set, 3 slots and it is done.

Even in your own suggestion it takes 4 hardeners, a rig slot and an armor repper to tank the ship, thats 6 slots to do the same job the apocalypse does in 3. It is precisely the need for 3 extra slots to tank the nightmare that is the problem. If that was all the nightmare had to worry about, no problem, none, zilch, zero BUT it also must fit cap recharging mods or rigs, it needs tracking asistance (TP or comp), optimal scripted, and let us not forget that it only effectively fights sansha and blood both of which tracking disrupt so you have to consider yet another mod slot.

Additionally, you can stack more tank onto the apocalypse (assuming you use just 2 hardeners) if you want to because so far you only have 1 hardener of each type, if you need to really harden up tank on the nightmare it starts running into stacking problems faster and will always come up short to the apocalypse which due to its higher base tank will always out tank the nighmare. The two share other crippling traits so it is really on their tank that is the issue. Also, the apocalypse has an optimal bonus so it not only tanks better but when it comes to stacking for sniper fits the apocalypse wins again.

It isnt JUST the resists that complicates the problem it is ALL the things the nightmare is being asked to do that is the problem, it needs something lifted off its shoulders.

......Today i took my own advice, i armor tanked the nightmare instead of shield tanking it the way it was designed, it was better off, just like the apocalypse it now took only 3 defense mods to hold up tank against about 10 BSs plus the standard assortment of BCs, cruisers and frigates. Let me be clear here though, it still was sub par and things got sketchy but it did work.

repost, removed. Tone was bad anyways.