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Intergalactic Summit

 
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[GalFed] Villore Assembly resolution on the crowning of Empress Catiz

First post
Author
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#201 - 2016-09-15 14:15:58 UTC
Don't you usually use missiles? Seems like it anyways.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#202 - 2016-09-15 14:34:45 UTC
Railguns too. You can't find more precise weapons in our cluster than railguns.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#203 - 2016-09-15 14:44:30 UTC
Can't argue that...
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2016-09-15 14:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Diana Kim wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

Only a really special person can manually aim at a speck of light moving at the velocity of 1.2km/s 15-20km away and still be able to hit it with anything resembling accuracy.

Such a person does not exist.

Fire control directors, dammit!

Primitive tribal savages.
They can't realize that to watch through gun targetting reticle all you need to do is to place camera along the gun barrel and connect it to ship interface, that is eventually accessible through capsule interface. And that's why you don't hire minmatar engineers. And probably that's the reason minmatar ships have largest crews among ships of other nations. Minmatar engineers are so damn unimaginative!

And instead of finding technological solution they discuss possibility of manual labor...


Except that doesn't work at all.

Seriously, have you never studied ballistics physics? At all? The human eye is amazingly bad at tracking fast moving objects at kilometers range. Especially objects that will appear to be specks of light that happen to move very fast. That's why dogfights had always taken place within distances measured in meters. Kilometers and you start finding yourself having trouble hitting a damn thing accurately.

Gunnery station crewmen are expected to know ballistics physics to understand how projectiles, whether gyrojet shells, railguns, plasma blasts, missiles or particle beams/lasers interact with moving targets at a specific velocity flying at a specific angle at a specific distance, with added consideration of the effects of gravity affecting the trajectory of the projectile or the beam. If on the surface and dealing with firing projectiles (not beams) at ranges measured in kilometers, we even have to take into account of wind direction and the planet's curvature in the calculation. Intuition is terrible at managing that.

Even then they do not actually do the calculations manually. They run the calculation through the ballistic control system or the targeting computers using the variables provided by the tactical suite. Modern systems do away with crew entirely, the sensors and tactical suite operate together with the capsuleer's cerebellum (not cerebrum. That is how we are able to instinctively come up with calculations, albeit not entirely accurate, in cycle intervals without being entirely aware of having done the calculation. The program was written into our subconscious) and individual targeting computers/ballistic control systems of every individual turret or launcher to calculate firing solutions just in time for the next firing cycle of the weapons. The more auxiliary computers added into the link-up the more accurate the calculations become.

The computers, by the way, are what we call 'Fire Control Directors'. It's not a person, it's a computer that calculates exactly where to aim, after taking into account of all these factors.

Besides, you didn't realise that you have MULTIPLE TURRETS with multiple angles to consider. Are you expecting to track the target through multiple views at multiple angles?

((https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_system aka you do not eyeball your targets when you have giant turrets with a fixed turn speed and the targets are moving kilometers away. Use a goddamn calculator and know your calculations))

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#205 - 2016-09-15 15:06:25 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

Only a really special person can manually aim at a speck of light moving at the velocity of 1.2km/s 15-20km away and still be able to hit it with anything resembling accuracy.

Such a person does not exist.

Fire control directors, dammit!

Primitive tribal savages.
They can't realize that to watch through gun targetting reticle all you need to do is to place camera along the gun barrel and connect it to ship interface, that is eventually accessible through capsule interface. And that's why you don't hire minmatar engineers. And probably that's the reason minmatar ships have largest crews among ships of other nations. Minmatar engineers are so damn unimaginative!

And instead of finding technological solution they discuss possibility of manual labor...


Except that doesn't work at all.

Seriously, have you never studied ballistics physics? At all? The human eye is amazingly bad at tracking fast moving objects at kilometers range. Especially objects that will appear to be specks of light that happen to move very fast. That's why dogfights had always taken place within distances measured in meters. Kilometers and you start finding yourself having trouble hitting a damn thing accurately.

Gunnery station crewmen are expected to know ballistics physics to understand how projectiles, whether gyrojet shells, railguns, plasma blasts, missiles or particle beams/lasers interact with moving targets at a specific velocity flying at a specific angle at a specific distance, with added consideration of the effects of gravity affecting the trajectory of the projectile or the beam. If on the surface and dealing with firing projectiles (not beams) at ranges measured in kilometers, we even have to take into account of wind direction and the planet's curvature in the calculation. Intuition is terrible at managing that.

Even then they do not actually do the calculations manually. They run the calculation through the ballistic control system or the targeting computers using the variables provided by the tactical suite. Modern systems do away with crew entirely, the sensors and tactical suite operate together with the capsuleer's cerebellum (not cerebrum. That is how we are able to instinctively come up with calculations, albeit not entirely accurate, in cycle intervals without being entirely aware of having done the calculation. The program was written into our subconscious) and individual targeting computers/ballistic control systems of every individual turret or launcher to calculate firing solutions just in time for the next firing cycle of the weapons. The more auxiliary computers added into the link-up the more accurate the calculations become.

That system, by the way, is what we call a 'Fire Control Director'. It's not a person, it's a system to generate accurate calculations to determine exactly where to aim after taking into account of all these factors.

Besides, you didn't realise that you have MULTIPLE TURRETS with multiple angles to consider. Are you expecting to track the target through multiple views at multiple angles?

((https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_system aka you do not eyeball your targets when you have giant turrets with a fixed turn speed and the targets are moving kilometers away. Use a goddamn calculator and know your calculations))

You are annoying.

If minmatar engineers can't understand a simple concept of a camera attached to the barrel so the pilot and crew (should they want to) could see where it is pointed without affecting the tracking and gun control, I don't think that further explanation would change anything.

That's just pathetic.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2016-09-15 15:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Diana Kim wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

Only a really special person can manually aim at a speck of light moving at the velocity of 1.2km/s 15-20km away and still be able to hit it with anything resembling accuracy.

Such a person does not exist.

Fire control directors, dammit!

Primitive tribal savages.
They can't realize that to watch through gun targetting reticle all you need to do is to place camera along the gun barrel and connect it to ship interface, that is eventually accessible through capsule interface. And that's why you don't hire minmatar engineers. And probably that's the reason minmatar ships have largest crews among ships of other nations. Minmatar engineers are so damn unimaginative!

And instead of finding technological solution they discuss possibility of manual labor...


Except that doesn't work at all.

Seriously, have you never studied ballistics physics? At all? The human eye is amazingly bad at tracking fast moving objects at kilometers range. Especially objects that will appear to be specks of light that happen to move very fast. That's why dogfights had always taken place within distances measured in meters. Kilometers and you start finding yourself having trouble hitting a damn thing accurately.

Gunnery station crewmen are expected to know ballistics physics to understand how projectiles, whether gyrojet shells, railguns, plasma blasts, missiles or particle beams/lasers interact with moving targets at a specific velocity flying at a specific angle at a specific distance, with added consideration of the effects of gravity affecting the trajectory of the projectile or the beam. If on the surface and dealing with firing projectiles (not beams) at ranges measured in kilometers, we even have to take into account of wind direction and the planet's curvature in the calculation. Intuition is terrible at managing that.

Even then they do not actually do the calculations manually. They run the calculation through the ballistic control system or the targeting computers using the variables provided by the tactical suite. Modern systems do away with crew entirely, the sensors and tactical suite operate together with the capsuleer's cerebellum (not cerebrum. That is how we are able to instinctively come up with calculations, albeit not entirely accurate, in cycle intervals without being entirely aware of having done the calculation. The program was written into our subconscious) and individual targeting computers/ballistic control systems of every individual turret or launcher to calculate firing solutions just in time for the next firing cycle of the weapons. The more auxiliary computers added into the link-up the more accurate the calculations become.

That system, by the way, is what we call a 'Fire Control Director'. It's not a person, it's a system to generate accurate calculations to determine exactly where to aim after taking into account of all these factors.

Besides, you didn't realise that you have MULTIPLE TURRETS with multiple angles to consider. Are you expecting to track the target through multiple views at multiple angles?

((https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_system aka you do not eyeball your targets when you have giant turrets with a fixed turn speed and the targets are moving kilometers away. Use a goddamn calculator and know your calculations))

You are annoying.

If minmatar engineers can't understand a simple concept of a camera attached to the barrel so the pilot and crew (should they want to) could see where it is pointed without affecting the tracking and gun control, I don't think that further explanation would change anything.

That's just pathetic.


A Minmatar engineer knows ballistic physics and how to design a fire control system using five year old computers that some wasteful idiot is tossing into a junk heap that is able to get them a firing solution for a weapon type infamous for jumping ever so slightly due to recoil every second and still achieve a reasonable level of accuracy. I doubt you actually manually aim anything and just want to feel good about yourself.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#207 - 2016-09-15 15:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tristan Valentina
My name is Diana Kim, and I am the deadliest person in space. My railguns never hit the target but they always hit something.

Diana Kim the thing about you that makes me sad is that you make me side with Elmund Egivand every now and then.

For a Soldier of the State, I am surprised by your lack on knowledge on how long distance shooting works. Maybe that is why you are in a capsule.


Elmund Egivand that is an amazing post on how gunnery works.



It is amazing how off the topic of the original post we have gotten in this thread.

Tristan Valentina
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2016-09-16 01:12:05 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
My name is Diana Kim, and I am the deadliest person in space. My railguns never hit the target but they always hit something.

Diana Kim the thing about you that makes me sad is that you make me side with Elmund Egivand every now and then.

For a Soldier of the State, I am surprised by your lack on knowledge on how long distance shooting works. Maybe that is why you are in a capsule.


Elmund Egivand that is an amazing post on how gunnery works.



It is amazing how off the topic of the original post we have gotten in this thread.

Tristan Valentina


Am I that bad?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#209 - 2016-09-16 15:25:02 UTC
Oh, sweet Maker. Now there are TWO gallentean idiots who can't understand concept of looking through gun targeting reticle. And they can't understand that to look you don't have to move the gun or do anything with it except having a mean of looking along the barrel. Your knowledge of physics is lacking.

And yes, Egivand. You are bad. Go back to training.
And no, Tristan. Our railguns are most precise weapons in the cluster. You might even taste them between your teeth when you get out from your hiding and face our forces. Even small railguns will reach your puny ship from 100 km.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2016-09-16 16:27:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Diana Kim wrote:
Oh, sweet Maker. Now there are TWO gallentean idiots who can't understand concept of looking through gun targeting reticle. And they can't understand that to look you don't have to move the gun or do anything with it except having a mean of looking along the barrel. Your knowledge of physics is lacking.

And yes, Egivand. You are bad. Go back to training.
And no, Tristan. Our railguns are most precise weapons in the cluster. You might even taste them between your teeth when you get out from your hiding and face our forces. Even small railguns will reach your puny ship from 100 km.


I had already mentioned that the 'reticle' thing only works for targets who are meters away from your location, not KILOMETERS away, where the best you will see of your target is a barely perceptible speck of light and you have to rely on a telescope to even see the thing properly. Then you have to gauge velocity and direction so that you may lead your very fast moving target. And even then eye-based distance and velocity determination is horrifically inaccurate. That's why your ships have sensors systems/network and tactical suites whose job is to tell you where a target (identified by electronic signature, NOT sight) is, how fast it is going, what angle is it flying. Because your eyes are terrible at managing that kind of data.

Then you have to also take into account about the guns being located at different parts of the ship and each having different angles. Your fire control director system is there to take into account of the sensor data, turn speed of turret, location of said turret and then figure out exactly where to aim, then direct the turrets to aim exactly there. If missiles, aim launchers for most expeditious delivery of payload, upload tracking data and let the missiles lose.

However, the automated fire control system has weaknesses. For one, it relies entirely on sensor data, which does not provide a single accurate reading but an average. This is due to the fact that sensors have resolutions and the fact that the data is generated based on the target's electronic signature radius rather than true size and silhouette. As such, the figure generated by the sensor can be wrong, but due to how the system is programmed, it will keep generating the same inaccurate figures. In order to compensate for this problem, the fire control system has to be designed to work not with a specific figure but with probable figures. Probability. Aim trajectory based entirely on the probability of where the target will be in the next firing cycle.

To do this, the fire control director system will need to be programmed using a neural network scheme. However, such a system has a very steep hardware requirement, if all components were to be artificial. Even worse, fabricating such a thing will very quickly draw the attention of CONCORD, and for good reason. Artificial neural networks form the framework of strong AI, which as we all know is what led to the birth of the Rogue Drones.

That's where the capsuleer comes in. Every capsuleer already has a neural network in his or her brain. Every capsuleer is equipped to deal with probabilities. We can intuitively determine the chance of whether the target is actually where the data says it will be and adjust the accordingly. If there is a miss, we can adjust again, something a traditional fire control director can't do. All the capsuleer needs is to have his side of the program and the instinctive understanding on how gunnery, and by extension, this program, works in his or her brain. So we take the skill injection, spend more time for the knowledge to bake into our subconscious, then plug ourselves to the capsule (and it's brain-machine interface and computer) and then to the ship (and her network of sensors, tactical suite, starboard AI and targeting computers and/or ballistic control systems), link up with the rest of the components of the fire control director system and be faster, more efficient and generally outright better at hitting targets between 500m to 100+km away as compared to any other ship that still relies on gunnery crew or the traditional fire control director system.

Of course, no amount of advance programming and intricate brain-machine interface system designing is going to compensate for the mechanical weaknesses and quirks of one's auto-loaders and turrets.

Note: Every ship already has targeting computers, tracking enhancers and/or ballistic control systems installed as stock. However, they all have a set limit to how many processing power they can draw from the starship main computer (and by extension, shipboard AI). Adding more of these hardware allows the fire control director to draw more processing power to calculate firing solution faster and more accurately before the next firing cycle, thereby extending range and improving the probability of good hits. Law of Diminishing Return still applies.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#211 - 2016-09-16 16:28:41 UTC
You know, watching several people recently sally forth in the face of direct cited contrary evidence to their point--by experts no less, I'm reminded of a recent conversation that I had with a friend of mine. I was talking about the profit margins of a product that I was selling and in the middle of it, she stops me and goes, "Why don't you just start scamming people? I find it much less bothersome and marks are abundant."

I laughed then, but reading a few of these exchanges lately, I'm thinking that she might have a point. In either event, because of this thread, I've already got an idea for a product and a sucker to sell it to. Nice to have in your back pocket.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2016-09-16 16:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
I swear, if I have to keep posting technical information like that, I might have to put together a 'Starship Systems for Dummies' guide.

Spirits above! My first two years in the RMS Capsuleer Programme involved cramming all this information into my head. I was very accustomed to the mechanical and electrical engineering side of starship operations, but computer programs, navigation and etc were new to me. I was expected to master each of these novel subjects within six months! I wasn't even allowed to take a break due to injuries caused by intense physical conditioning programmes we had to take every single day. Torn rhomboids? The pain keeps your mind sharp, they said!

I had to wonder exactly what kind of organisation made Kim a capsuleer if she didn't already know all of this by now.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#213 - 2016-09-16 16:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
You totally should. Let me know if you need any help on the differences between shield and armor remote repair systems and why they apply at different rates. (Hint: it's the nanites.)
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2016-09-16 17:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Arrendis wrote:
You totally should. Let me know if you need any help on the differences between shield and armor remote repair systems and why they apply at different rates. (Hint: it's the nanites.)


Not to mention the shield booster systems also incorporate replenishment of the high viscosity plasma layer, maintenance of the electromagnetic field and the reassembly of the lattice made of superlight shield-hardening nanites.

With remote armor repairers all you need to do is to direct where you want to dump the nanites on. 'Directed'. That and the time it takes for the nanites to repair the armour are why armour repairers only take effect at end of cycle rather than the beginning of it.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#215 - 2016-09-16 17:29:14 UTC
It is funny how gallentean bootlicker start pouring irrelevant to the question information because they failed to grasp the concept, claiming I 'didn't know that'.

Stop flooding forums with technical data, Egivand. Learn to think with your head, not your data book. All the sources in the world won't help you if you fail to understand the subject in first place.

On other hand, dear readers, displayed by him behavior could be easily predicted taking into account that he fell for gallentean propaganda. I just hope that the most of them are like Elmund Egivand. Then we won't have problem fighting them, as they won't recognize our plans even if they see them with their own eyes.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2016-09-16 17:34:05 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
It is funny how gallentean bootlicker start pouring irrelevant to the question information because they failed to grasp the concept, claiming I 'didn't know that'.

Stop flooding forums with technical data, Egivand. Learn to think with your head, not your data book. All the sources in the world won't help you if you fail to understand the subject in first place.

On other hand, dear readers, displayed by him behavior could be easily predicted taking into account that he fell for gallentean propaganda. I just hope that the most of them are like Elmund Egivand. Then we won't have problem fighting them, as they won't recognize our plans even if they see them with their own eyes.


Ah yes. The Caldari Navy also teaches this propaganda to their cadets.

Did you even go through the Capsuleer Programme through the Caldari Navy? Or did you get in by writing a very flattering pro-Heth opinion piece to be published to the working public?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#217 - 2016-09-16 20:33:14 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Oh, sweet Maker. Now there are TWO gallentean idiots who can't understand concept of looking through gun targeting reticle. And they can't understand that to look you don't have to move the gun or do anything with it except having a mean of looking along the barrel. Your knowledge of physics is lacking.

And yes, Egivand. You are bad. Go back to training.
And no, Tristan. Our railguns are most precise weapons in the cluster. You might even taste them between your teeth when you get out from your hiding and face our forces. Even small railguns will reach your puny ship from 100 km.

So you are trying to convince us that you or your crew can track better than immortal mercenary snipers I can prove you wrong just name a time and a place preferably planetside
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#218 - 2016-09-17 00:02:46 UTC
This is getting embarrassing. She's talking about having a camera on a turret just for fun, not for using it to aim.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#219 - 2016-09-17 00:32:06 UTC
Pilot Egivand you should know better than trying to speak logically to the likes of Kim. She will never admit that you're correct and she's wrong no matter how much data and science you present her with. The gods themselves could not beat her brains out for she has none.

Best to simply block and ignore her and move forward.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#220 - 2016-09-29 06:45:09 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
This is getting embarrassing. She's talking about having a camera on a turret just for fun, not for using it to aim.

Indeed. But, well, I guess some peoples are straightforward stupid to realize this. I think Egivand is actually a... ship mechanic? Right? I can understand the way he is reasoning: "If to target a ship you need to look at it, thus if you are looking at it, you need to do the targeting procedures yourself." This is quite common logical fallacy, and a reason why I would never ever actually let someone like Egivand to do complex engineering tasks. I believe despite his ability to cite technical manuals his best position on the ship (if he wouldn't be a capsuleer) would be a janitor.

As for Rella's remark, it is widely known that the space between her ears is as bright as jump links in J7HZ-F. Quite typical for a rabid dog like her to jump in help to another tribal to try to attack a Caldari representative. But alas, she did it so fast without even realizing what the talk was about, just displaying her inability to think to the whole IGS. I would pity her for her lack of mental prowess, if I would consider her a human being.


Oh, and Mr. Ramal. It was not just for fun, but to see how they explode and cease to exist. It gives sort of... satisfaction.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.