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make a small mobile tractor unit for frigates and destoryers

Author
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-09-13 17:27:58 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Use a cargo expander --> Problem solved

-1


Now i have to lose a mod slot to have an MTU when other larger ships do not, no thank you. In particular armor tanked ships would be hurt a lot by this as lows are where their tank AND damage mods fit.


Oh noes I have to use a different ship to do something better than the one I'm currently in. That's not one of the core mechanics of eve at all, ccplease nerf
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#22 - 2016-09-13 17:29:28 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
No, he would want the smaller one regardless of how expensive it is. Whether he gets it or not would be the question

Instead, hypothetical new bro will use another method in the meantime to collect his loot, or use his brain and do some research and not bother looting at all.

What you're asking for already exists and because of the balance factor (price and rarity) is not in your favour you decide it needs to change.



By your logic then making base frigates cost twice what battleships cost is okay and newbros just have to suck it up. There is a scaling of ISK cost for most, if not all items for a reason, you tend to have less income at lower levels when flying T1 hulls, then when you're flying around in a TITAN.

Cheap T1 frigate or Destroyer and cheap small MTU.

Semi to full bling GOLEM and a larger more expensive MTU.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2016-09-13 17:34:19 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but you would actually lose isk.....

the time it takes you to loot the site would be better spent getting started on the next mission to get standings to get worth while missions


the cargo expander is so you can hold the tractor unit... could you not put that together? basicly you don't need a smaller item if you can just get a bigger hold. it will give you more than 100m3


Okay i missed that but is it okay to make a hold so big on small ships. I would say it probably isnt. Making the hold bigger effects other parts of the game because you have increased absolute hold which probably should remain limited.



is this guy just dumb?

the cargo expandor is a mod you can put on your ship
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#24 - 2016-09-13 17:39:44 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Use a cargo expander --> Problem solved

-1


Now i have to lose a mod slot to have an MTU when other larger ships do not, no thank you. In particular armor tanked ships would be hurt a lot by this as lows are where their tank AND damage mods fit.


Oh noes I have to use a different ship to do something better than the one I'm currently in. That's not one of the core mechanics of eve at all, ccplease nerf



Is the core concept of EVE that one class of vessels must give something up that other ships get and get nothing in return because that doesnt seem a core EVE value to me.

If i fly a golem i can hit any npc frigate i know of even if it is point blank range orbiting me but it could take several volleys for me to kill it. On the other hand a turret boat might be able to kill off two of the same frigate in one volley but has to deal with the possibility that a frigate can get under his guns at which point he can do zero damage to the frigate with his main weapon.

example assumes only the trade off between main weapons both probably will have light or medium drones to kill frigates but that doesnt make the point i was trying to make here.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#25 - 2016-09-13 17:42:29 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but you would actually lose isk.....

the time it takes you to loot the site would be better spent getting started on the next mission to get standings to get worth while missions


the cargo expander is so you can hold the tractor unit... could you not put that together? basicly you don't need a smaller item if you can just get a bigger hold. it will give you more than 100m3


Okay i missed that but is it okay to make a hold so big on small ships. I would say it probably isnt. Making the hold bigger effects other parts of the game because you have increased absolute hold which probably should remain limited.



is this guy just dumb?

the cargo expandor is a mod you can put on your ship


Are you an idiot ?

Yes, you can put a cargo expander on any ship but other ships with larger holds dont have to give up a mod slot for a tractor unit, if they did than the cargo expander option would be equal to all ships regardless of size and i would have no argument for a smaller MTU.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-09-13 18:00:03 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
No, he would want the smaller one regardless of how expensive it is. Whether he gets it or not would be the question

Instead, hypothetical new bro will use another method in the meantime to collect his loot, or use his brain and do some research and not bother looting at all.

What you're asking for already exists and because of the balance factor (price and rarity) is not in your favour you decide it needs to change.



By your logic then making base frigates cost twice what battleships cost is okay and newbros just have to suck it up. There is a scaling of ISK cost for most, if not all items for a reason, you tend to have less income at lower levels when flying T1 hulls, then when you're flying around in a TITAN.

Cheap T1 frigate or Destroyer and cheap small MTU.

Semi to full bling GOLEM and a larger more expensive MTU.


Don't put words in my mouth, it's very rude.


Straw man is an extremely frowned upon debating tactic and every time you start a post with " by your logic " it's painfully obvious that's what you're doing

The mtu is a standard object with some variations, if you feel the need to have something that does something similar but needs a few tweaks for it to work, you have options with certain setbacks

Making frigates cost twice as much as battleships would make absolutely no difference in this case as this is just arbitrary number shifting. People would just start off using the next cheapest thing, destroyers and if you made it so the starting ship was battleships that cost 200mil, obviously nobody would be able to afford this and prices will come down.

Market value for the magpie is a reflection on the rarity and desirability of the attributes. Of course people want smaller mtu because it allows more room for loot, however to balance the improvement you're getting you have to pay more for it.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#27 - 2016-09-13 18:05:32 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but you would actually lose isk.....

the time it takes you to loot the site would be better spent getting started on the next mission to get standings to get worth while missions


the cargo expander is so you can hold the tractor unit... could you not put that together? basicly you don't need a smaller item if you can just get a bigger hold. it will give you more than 100m3


Okay i missed that but is it okay to make a hold so big on small ships. I would say it probably isnt. Making the hold bigger effects other parts of the game because you have increased absolute hold which probably should remain limited.



is this guy just dumb?

the cargo expandor is a mod you can put on your ship


Are you an idiot ?

Yes, you can put a cargo expander on any ship but other ships with larger holds dont have to give up a mod slot for a tractor unit, if they did than the cargo expander option would be equal to all ships regardless of size and i would have no argument for a smaller MTU.



your right and its just so unfair that battleships can just hold more in general or that caps can even hold full ships ccp should really look at this discrepancy Roll
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#28 - 2016-09-13 18:06:26 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
No, he would want the smaller one regardless of how expensive it is. Whether he gets it or not would be the question

Instead, hypothetical new bro will use another method in the meantime to collect his loot, or use his brain and do some research and not bother looting at all.

What you're asking for already exists and because of the balance factor (price and rarity) is not in your favour you decide it needs to change.



By your logic then making base frigates cost twice what battleships cost is okay and newbros just have to suck it up. There is a scaling of ISK cost for most, if not all items for a reason, you tend to have less income at lower levels when flying T1 hulls, then when you're flying around in a TITAN.

Cheap T1 frigate or Destroyer and cheap small MTU.

Semi to full bling GOLEM and a larger more expensive MTU.


Don't put words in my mouth, it's very rude.


Straw man is an extremely frowned upon debating tactic and every time you start a post with " by your logic " it's painfully obvious that's what you're doing

The mtu is a standard object with some variations, if you feel the need to have something that does something similar but needs a few tweaks for it to work, you have options with certain setbacks

Making frigates cost twice as much as battleships would make absolutely no difference in this case as this is just arbitrary number shifting. People would just start off using the next cheapest thing, destroyers and if you made it so the starting ship was battleships that cost 200mil, obviously nobody would be able to afford this and prices will come down.

Market value for the magpie is a reflection on the rarity and desirability of the attributes. Of course people want smaller mtu because it allows more room for loot, however to balance the improvement you're getting you have to pay more for it.


Should newbros pay more for officer fit mods over the standard stuff, absolutely. Should newbros pay more for a basic item like an MTU than people sitting on billions or trillions of isk, not even sorta okay.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#29 - 2016-09-13 18:11:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but you would actually lose isk.....

the time it takes you to loot the site would be better spent getting started on the next mission to get standings to get worth while missions


the cargo expander is so you can hold the tractor unit... could you not put that together? basicly you don't need a smaller item if you can just get a bigger hold. it will give you more than 100m3


Okay i missed that but is it okay to make a hold so big on small ships. I would say it probably isnt. Making the hold bigger effects other parts of the game because you have increased absolute hold which probably should remain limited.



is this guy just dumb?

the cargo expandor is a mod you can put on your ship


Are you an idiot ?

Yes, you can put a cargo expander on any ship but other ships with larger holds dont have to give up a mod slot for a tractor unit, if they did than the cargo expander option would be equal to all ships regardless of size and i would have no argument for a smaller MTU.



your right and its just so unfair that battleships can just hold more in general or that caps can even hold full ships ccp should really look at this discrepancy Roll


Nowhere in my request does it say that frigates and destroyers should hold more, that was someone else's idea and one that i stated was a dubious suggestion with most probably negative outcomes.

This simply puts a smaller unit into smaller ships and bigger units into bigger ships, the same balancing is done for weapons, my T1 frigate has small projectile turrets on it and larger ships have larger projectile turrets. I dont and should not expect my T1 turrets to out damage T1 battleship turrents and i dont. But the size of my T1 frigate turrets is the RIGHT SIZE for my frigate and a smaller MTU would be the right size as well.

So are things so unfair in its current state, they sure are and yes CCP should look into this discrepancy.....sighs.... Roll

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#30 - 2016-09-13 18:22:53 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Use a cargo expander --> Problem solved

-1


Now i have to lose a mod slot to have an MTU when other larger ships do not, no thank you. In particular armor tanked ships would be hurt a lot by this as lows are where their tank AND damage mods fit.

I'm shocked to learn that there are some drawbacks to flying a small, fast, agile ship. News at 11!

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#31 - 2016-09-13 18:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
FT Diomedes wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Use a cargo expander --> Problem solved

-1


Now i have to lose a mod slot to have an MTU when other larger ships do not, no thank you. In particular armor tanked ships would be hurt a lot by this as lows are where their tank AND damage mods fit.

I'm shocked to learn that there are some drawbacks to flying a small, fast, agile ship. News at 11!


Im equally shocked to find there that huge combat ships have benefits small agile ones dont get......so where did we go with this ?

oh.....News at 11!.....i guess.....

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Iain Cariaba
#32 - 2016-09-13 22:12:51 UTC
How is a 400m3 hold not big enough to carry a MTU? The t1 exploration frigates, which get a bonus to salvager cycle time, each have 400m3 holds.

Use the right ship for the job, or choose to lose that low slot to fit a cargo extender when adapting something else to do it.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#33 - 2016-09-13 22:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Use a cargo expander --> Problem solved

-1


Now i have to lose a mod slot to have an MTU when other larger ships do not, no thank you. In particular armor tanked ships would be hurt a lot by this as lows are where their tank AND damage mods fit.


Oh noes I have to use a different ship to do something better than the one I'm currently in. That's not one of the core mechanics of eve at all, ccplease nerf



Punchline is BS pilots on the cautious side don't even use these. They can be magnets for the people you may not want to see in your space.

Personally I kill and clear rooms and if mission deemed worthy of it I bring out the noctis at the end. Usually save this for a couple missions string and hit the cans right under the 2 hr life of the cans. Chance of loot and salvage increases when it a bunch of them in the same system as well. Whole bunch of crap in one system makes it more appealing potentially.

Never had an issue with noctis' ability here. But I am old and bitter...I spent mucho grande time in the ye old salvage cata. Noctis a godsend really.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#34 - 2016-09-16 07:53:06 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
How is a 400m3 hold not big enough to carry a MTU? The t1 exploration frigates, which get a bonus to salvager cycle time, each have 400m3 holds.

Use the right ship for the job, or choose to lose that low slot to fit a cargo extender when adapting something else to do it.


Yes, let's talk about the right tool for the job and it is NOT an exploration frigate. The exploration frigate isnt bonused for combat missions so lets like at the proper tools for the job and see what the situation is?


Rifter: hold capacity 140 m3

Incursis: hold capacity 160 m3

Kestrel: hold capacity 160 m3

Punisher: hold capacity 135 m3


Now, just for laughs lets add a expanded cargo II to the Punisher and see where that gets us:

135m3 x 1.275 = 172m3

Now, for even more laughs lets stick a 100m3 MTU into it.

Even after putting a dps and tank killing mod onto the ship, 58.1% of the ships cargo capacity is filled with an MTU!

Thank you for really shinning a light onto the problem that needs addressed, i must say excellent argument in favor of the mini MTU.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#35 - 2016-09-16 08:09:15 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Use a cargo expander --> Problem solved

-1


Now i have to lose a mod slot to have an MTU when other larger ships do not, no thank you. In particular armor tanked ships would be hurt a lot by this as lows are where their tank AND damage mods fit.


Oh noes I have to use a different ship to do something better than the one I'm currently in. That's not one of the core mechanics of eve at all, ccplease nerf



Punchline is BS pilots on the cautious side don't even use these. They can be magnets for the people you may not want to see in your space.

Personally I kill and clear rooms and if mission deemed worthy of it I bring out the noctis at the end. Usually save this for a couple missions string and hit the cans right under the 2 hr life of the cans. Chance of loot and salvage increases when it a bunch of them in the same system as well. Whole bunch of crap in one system makes it more appealing potentially.

Never had an issue with noctis' ability here. But I am old and bitter...I spent mucho grande time in the ye old salvage cata. Noctis a godsend really.


1 ) The mini MTU is supposed to help new pilots starting out doing L1s and L2s. New pilots dont have 75 million to spend on the base hull of a Noctis nor do they have the added expenses of outfitting a noctis.

2) New players probably arent going to have 9 million to spend on the current MTU, either.

3) MTUs fit well with larger vessels and those vessels dont need to give up a low slot to use the MTU (the loss of even one slot on a T1 frigate can make it far less effective at running missions. Lets look at the Rifter which is armor tanked, but also needs damage mods in its low slots but only has 3 to start with, asking the Rifter pilot to give up one of his low slots is asking too much.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

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