These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Delocalizing the market through regional export isk sinks.

Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
EaterOfSandwiches
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-09-13 04:55:12 UTC
I'm not really a RL trader or in game but it seems like the central trading system, Jita, sort of makes for some uncreative trading content with a lot of people just getting everything in one central place instead of having other markets competing for part of the action. I don't even know if this is a problem or not but it seems like trading would be a far more interesting and possibly exciting with a few additions to how goods are moved.

My hypothesis: Adding an NPC tax to regional gates in high sec on goods being transported in cargoholds will improve regional market health and encourage higher risk/reward for people involved in transport.

For instance, getting through low sec in a transport ship would feel meaningful as you would be skirting the taxes at the risk of your own ship. I think this would open up a decent amount of career options for low level players who are dedicated traders (5-10 mil sp) and make for some very interesting content as players try avoiding hostile players.

In addition, I believe many regional markets would emerge with prices to compete with the best markets out there. A big problem I could see people citing would be the time sink to avoid taxes, but I would argue having more regional hubs would actually decrease time spent in warp and more time spent doing fun things. This also allows more competitive pricing and more local industry as its not a constant competition for the absolute lowest price. It may even inadvertently make suicide ganking less of an issue, but that is an issue I don't really care about.

The only thing I don't know how to work around would be fitting mods to the hull to avoid taxing them, but then again maybe that could be a part of smuggling.

It sounds fun to me and a good way to change the super centralized market a little bit and add more narratives about a pretty boring career path.

Let me know what you think
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#2 - 2016-09-13 05:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
EaterOfSandwiches wrote:


My hypothesis: Adding an NPC tax to regional gates in high sec on goods being transported in cargoholds will improve regional market health and encourage higher risk/reward for people involved in transport.

For instance, getting through low sec in a transport ship would feel meaningful as you would be skirting the taxes at the risk of your own ship. I think this would open up a decent amount of career options for low level players who are dedicated traders (5-10 mil sp) and make for some very interesting content as players try avoiding hostile players.

Let me know what you think


Your example of LS makes no sense, the Empires can tax stuff or not, but empires operate in LS too. So, go for Empire taxes or local taxes, not a mix of them.

The problem though, is something we have seen with manipulation scams before. EVE never has accurate info on items in your hold. Because people can manipulate prices all over the place.

So, if you would tax stuff on gates, do it in 'mass of items' or 'volume of items'. Not the price.

Of course, some kind of mass / volume compression will be a way around that.
For example; plank generated containers in plastic wrap.

EaterOfSandwiches wrote:

The only thing I don't know how to work around would be fitting mods to the hull to avoid taxing them, but then again maybe that could be a part of smuggling.


Not needed, something like Wormholes exists.

EaterOfSandwiches wrote:

Let me know what you think


The general idea of taxing transport volumes between local markets is an idea that has merit, but to find a way that cant be manipulated will be a challenge. At least it would shake up markets.

If it would be implemented, I would just put charges on Inter-Regional gates, so, on Region borders, or on Empire borders, not on all gates in general. (like no taxes in the whole of the Amarr empire, since that would make no sense)...

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
EaterOfSandwiches
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-09-13 05:16:26 UTC
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but my idea was to only have the tax on region to region gates not gates contained in a region.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#4 - 2016-09-13 05:22:34 UTC
EaterOfSandwiches wrote:
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but my idea was to only have the tax on region to region gates not gates contained in a region.


Sure thing :D.

Btw, I see a WTB / WTS market on wormhole type A641 soonish after such measures would be implemented :D, you could sell them for a lot of isk. :D

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
EaterOfSandwiches
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2016-09-13 06:27:18 UTC
Wouldn't that add to the fun? Get people moving in space instead of sitting in stations all day.
Cooyaw
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-09-13 06:57:35 UTC
As a space trucker this idea sounds interesting it would be the equivalent of weigh stations but I almost think that this might lock station Traders down even harder AZ Import and Export taxes would discourage the natural simbiosis between trade and transport if you're running trade routes and being taxed and people buying goods in jita transporting goods themselves they may just fit ships to avoid taxation whereas Traders and space Truckers will be taxed potentially more than other types of players that go to jita to fit one ship

I actually really like the idea of using alternate trade routes in low sec to avoid taxation but this is an idea worth discussing in great detail

I never thought I could make the kind of isk that I do by running trade routes and shipping but it is an isk faucet for my Corporation that steadily drips and provides a fair income

Add to that the development of shipping calculators that would utilize new and otherwise unused trade routes through low sec and I've got a development problem to solve when I haven't even solved my initial hissec calculator :p

I do like the idea of weigh stations though taxation on volume
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#7 - 2016-09-13 08:22:30 UTC
Trade hubs are created and maintained by players. We already have a "tax" on interregional shipping through choke points like Uedama and Niarja. The "tax" rate is controlled by players.

CCP is currently trying to move more trade to Citadels by significantly increasing the cost of doing business in stations. It isn't obvious that they are succeeding and would be interesting to see the statistics. I suspect we'll need enforceable leasehold agreements before players voluntarily move their assets to a Citadel where they can be locked out at the owners whim. You also have the problem of market fragmentation - people want one stop shopping.

When thinking about new features consider the development effort. The weigh stations would come at the expense of something else. As an industrialist and trader, I don't see that the current system is broken - if you think a new market is needed somewhere - create it! Success or failure should depend on whether other players use it - not whether CCP subsidizes it with additional taxes.
Al Nomadi
Morawins
#8 - 2016-09-13 10:28:37 UTC
EaterOfSandwiches wrote:
I'm not really a RL trader or in game but it seems like the central trading system, Jita, sort of makes for some uncreative trading content with a lot of people just getting everything in one central place instead of having other markets competing for part of the action.
....

My hypothesis: Adding an NPC tax to regional gates in high sec on goods being transported in cargoholds will improve regional market health and encourage higher risk/reward for people involved in transport.

...



It is rather Jita influence disbalance, what is the problem, not the need of additional ISK sink...

Solution is very simple - add Jita and Perimeter to caldari faction warfare zone as well as Iyen-Oursta and Faurent to gallente faction warfare. They are bordering each other, after all.

Basically, making every system with regional gate low sec is also a solution, just more drastic one... Though very logical from the lore point of view.
Cooyaw
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2016-09-13 12:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cooyaw
Do Little wrote:
.

The weigh stations would come at the expense of something else. As an industrialist and trader, I don't see that the current system is broken - if you think a new market is needed somewhere - create it! Success or failure should depend on whether other players use it - not whether CCP subsidizes it with additional taxes.


Can't a *space trucker dream. But you are right, there are weigh stations. They are called "weight, you're GANKED! "
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2016-09-13 13:17:54 UTC
The changes to market taxes recently centralized trading further. Instead of a 4.5 hub system we now have a 2.5 hub system (Jita, Amarr and a semi-hub Dodixie). Hek and Rens are no longer hubs, and Dodixie no longer supports tech 2 manufacture - many stepping stone components are not available on sell orders there whereas they (almost) always were available and had a competitive market 12 months ago.

IMO the solution is scaling transaction taxes the same way that industry is scaled, but introducing this slowly because so much player wealth is in Jita 4-4 (there is probably well over a quadrillion ISK in player assets in that station, not even counting irreplaceable items).

A staggered introduction would allow players time to sell Jita assets to other players that are willing to move them, without a firesale.

The main barrier to this happening, IMO, is PLEX. It's impossible to be certain but I think that a very large percentage of all PLEX held by players are in Jita. This is a major barrier to a market decentralization. End users can purchase PLEX via private contract anywhere in game and remotely use them, but people that buy PLEX with the intention of reselling are a big part of the PLEX market and they do not want stock in Rens, much less in Rancer.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#11 - 2016-09-13 14:10:23 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


... the solution is scaling transaction taxes the same way that industry is scaled,


That.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#12 - 2016-09-17 14:45:40 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


... the solution is scaling transaction taxes the same way that industry is scaled,


That.


First of all, I'm against the whole thing because as it is I think trade is fine. There are mini hubs in lots of different places where there is sufficient demand, but you can go to Jita for the cheapest goods and for producers to supply themselves.

But of the whole thread, this suggestion would be the worst.

Players naturally gravitate towards one or two major trade centers. When Yulai was effectively destroyed, they simply made new hubs- Jita and Amarr as a secondary one. This is because it offers the best trade benefits, producers can quickly get what they need at lower prices due to increased throughput, which then lowers the prices of the goods they produce, and the rest of Eve can buy anything they want conveniently quickly and cheaply.

This means that one of two things would happen
1. Jita would immediately hit 10% tax but no one would move. Prices for all ships would increase 20-30% (10% for buying materials, 10% for selling)
2. Jita, and any major trade hubs, would be destroyed. Prices would still increase, especially for T2 stuff I'd expect up 20% anyway, because producers would have to hunt across the galaxy for the materials they needed. If you wanted to buy a ship, you'd probably have to go to multiple different stations every time you wanted to fit anything at all.

Tl;dr Long story short, a few massive hubs offer substantially larger benefits for production, trade, and consumption than a hundred small ones, and life in Eve would suck a lot more if we didn't have Jita or Amarr there.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
#13 - 2016-09-17 14:57:03 UTC
Please delocalize yourself. Thanks.

Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#14 - 2016-09-17 16:42:01 UTC
What would make EVE more cool in terms of trade btw, if all empires had Low Sec in between them, so you could never fly HS > HS between all the different Empire hubs. That would change things and would shake things up very decently.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#15 - 2016-09-17 23:40:30 UTC
Why exactly would distributed trade be better? EVE's economy simply isn't large enough to support it, and crippling Jita would only result in increasing prices because of reduced competition.

Anyway, production is already distributed. I do all my production in nullsec and having to ass about all over the galaxy to procure what I cannot source locally would be an enormous pain.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#16 - 2016-09-18 10:43:10 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Why exactly would distributed trade be better? EVE's economy simply isn't large enough to support it, and crippling Jita would only result in increasing prices because of reduced competition.

Anyway, production is already distributed. I do all my production in nullsec and having to ass about all over the galaxy to procure what I cannot source locally would be an enormous pain.

If you think industry work is a pain, why do you do it in the first place?
Other than that, getting higher profit margins (due to higher prices) for some extra work sound like a healthy thing.

On the other hand, I'd prefer to see suggestions on how to expand ingame economy (which is admittedly small), not how to cripple the existing one. CCP is doing a good job revamping realty estate of EVE with citadels, but that is just not enough.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#17 - 2016-09-18 11:01:38 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
erg cz wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


... the solution is scaling transaction taxes the same way that industry is scaled,


That.


First of all, I'm against the whole thing because as it is I think trade is fine. There are mini hubs in lots of different places where there is sufficient demand, but you can go to Jita for the cheapest goods and for producers to supply themselves.

But of the whole thread, this suggestion would be the worst.

Players naturally gravitate towards one or two major trade centers. When Yulai was effectively destroyed, they simply made new hubs- Jita and Amarr as a secondary one. This is because it offers the best trade benefits, producers can quickly get what they need at lower prices due to increased throughput, which then lowers the prices of the goods they produce, and the rest of Eve can buy anything they want conveniently quickly and cheaply.

This means that one of two things would happen
1. Jita would immediately hit 10% tax but no one would move. Prices for all ships would increase 20-30% (10% for buying materials, 10% for selling)
2. Jita, and any major trade hubs, would be destroyed. Prices would still increase, especially for T2 stuff I'd expect up 20% anyway, because producers would have to hunt across the galaxy for the materials they needed. If you wanted to buy a ship, you'd probably have to go to multiple different stations every time you wanted to fit anything at all.

Tl;dr Long story short, a few massive hubs offer substantially larger benefits for production, trade, and consumption than a hundred small ones, and life in Eve would suck a lot more if we didn't have Jita or Amarr there.



You do not understand the EVE economy if you believe this.

If there was a 10% trade tax in Jita, everyone that does not react quickly would go broke within days. Margins in EVE are not high enough to trade under those circumstances.

And until 6 months ago there were not 2 hubs, there were 4 and a half. (There are now 2 and a half).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#18 - 2016-09-19 01:30:42 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Why exactly would distributed trade be better? EVE's economy simply isn't large enough to support it, and crippling Jita would only result in increasing prices because of reduced competition.

Anyway, production is already distributed. I do all my production in nullsec and having to ass about all over the galaxy to procure what I cannot source locally would be an enormous pain.

If you think industry work is a pain, why do you do it in the first place?
Other than that, getting higher profit margins (due to higher prices) for some extra work sound like a healthy thing.

On the other hand, I'd prefer to see suggestions on how to expand ingame economy (which is admittedly small), not how to cripple the existing one. CCP is doing a good job revamping realty estate of EVE with citadels, but that is just not enough.

I do enjoy industry. I do not enjoy freighters. Expanding the economy requires more players.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#19 - 2016-09-19 05:35:02 UTC
Region border tax sounds fine and dandy until you realise that everyone will just dogpile into the Forge because of it. Some people will still provide goods elsewhere, but they'd be scarcer and more expensive.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#20 - 2016-09-19 05:41:09 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Region border tax sounds fine and dandy until you realise that everyone will just dogpile into the Forge because of it. Some people will still provide goods elsewhere, but they'd be scarcer and more expensive.


Sounds awesome, lets start tomorrow.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
12Next page