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.01 and how to GET RID OF IT

Author
Princess Adhara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-08-12 00:57:10 UTC
Darkwing Fiftytwo wrote:
You just make the tick increments based on the price of the item being traded. For <10.00 Isk its 0.01, for <100 is 0.10, for 1000 its 1, etc whatever you get the idea.


I'd rather have the minimum increment increase with the number of dumb posts made in the forum.
Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#22 - 2016-08-12 05:27:18 UTC
Darkwing Fiftytwo wrote:
You just make the tick increments based on the price of the item being traded. For <10.00 Isk its 0.01, for <100 is 0.10, for 1000 its 1, etc whatever you get the idea.

What would that accomplish?

Just set a reasonable price and come back a week or two later if it hasn't sold.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Parker Rush
Import Bank of New Eden KINGDOM
#23 - 2016-08-15 13:34:37 UTC
Kalido Raddi wrote:
The only other way to do a market in Eve may be to take a leaf out of the book of least PvP-oriented MMO game I've ever played - Final Fantasy 11.

The way the market worked in that was that Sell Orders were not visible - instead the only thing that potential buyers could see was the sales history. You had to bid a price and if a match was made, you got the item from the seller with the lowest Sell Order - but critically you got it at the price you bid.

This meant that sellers had to guess if their market was rising or falling, based on knowledge and the data. It also meant that in high volume markets sellers would heavily undercut, relying on buyers who were bidding at the normal price to sell stuff fast. And then there were people who would bid well under the odds on those high volume markets in order to catch people at that.

A blind market might be the only way to change Eve's market system - if you are convinced that it requires a change (I'm not).


Exhalted OP likes this idea. Methinks as well that mmorpg markets tend to behave as retail markets, and more emphasis on item quality should be considered. You use ****** parts for my ship module? Your module sells for less.
SCREAMING HAT GOBLINS
BIG WORDS
#24 - 2016-08-21 23:00:16 UTC
I know, lets switch to .001

Problem solved.
virm pasuul
Academy of the Unseen Arts
#25 - 2016-08-25 11:25:48 UTC
SCREAMING HAT GOBLINS wrote:
I know, lets switch to .001

Problem solved.


big chuckle here :)
thinking about it, it's not such a bad idea, even extend it a few more decimal places 0.00000001
if people want to waste time by 1 millionth of an ISKing, let them have at it I say
the 0.01 ISK game is a fools game anyway

I don't think the market needs to change but suggestions to help the OP

make the fee for an order scale up for each price change
the first change costs 100
then the next price change of the same order costs 1,000 then 10,000 then 100,000 then 1,000,000
after a few price changes the change fee will be more than the listing fees and it will not be economical to keep changing the price

Kelly Traklamor
Dayra Industries
#26 - 2016-08-26 15:32:00 UTC
Honestly, I used to have a problem with the .01 isk practice myself. However reading 1 paragraph on Eve UniWiki changed my perspective on the matter so I figure I would share that paragraph here in case it might help others come to terms with the practice too.

Eve University Wiki wrote:
0.01 ISK-ing
Once you get into trading, you will notice that a lot of people tend to over/undercut you by just 0.01 ISK per unit. Quite a few new players seem to have a problem with this - often getting annoyed to the point where they radically change their orders, slashing huge chunks off their profits. However, a more useful way to look at the 0.01-isking is that it is simply the game mechanism by which a logged on and active trading player has the advantage over logged off or AFK traders. Over or undercutting your competitors by just 0.01 ISK is precisely how this is achieved. So when someone else over/undercuts you by just 0.01 ISK, they are just getting their turn at the front of the queue. If you are there, updating your orders, you can simply update your orders and it is back to your turn to be at the front of the queue... On the other hand if you are not there, or not logged on, don't get so bent out of shape when someone that is active happens to be reaping the rewards.
And when you start doing some 0.01-isking of your own, try using your mouse-wheel to bump your price. You might like it, specially since it can be quite quick once you get used to it.
Of course, sometimes the market for a particular item is simply unrealistic, or maybe you need your trades to go through quickly for some reason - a radical price change might be called for, but a good trader will have identifiable reasons for making such a change, rather than it just being an emotional "I'll show you!" response to being 0.01-isked.

Source: Wiki Article - .01 isking section

Underlined & Bolded for emphasis. Ultimately I used to think about it like most others in game did, that some PITA was just wasting my time and undercutting my market orders by just enough to block my stuff from selling or buying. However after reading the above and truly thinking about the situation, I think the practice makes total sense because why shouldn't the guy that sits in JITA and spends all his time actively refreshing and adjusting market orders be able to reap the reward of purchases and sales over the guy that just sticks up a market order and only wants to check back on it occasionally.

Because of this, I find that I can no longer make the argument for changing the market to prevent the .01 isk bumping anymore. Anyone who is playing the game actively should always have the edge over anyone who is AFK or semi AFK from the game. Its the same thing when it comes to Mining ORE. You could setup a Retriever or Mack, fit it with a max yield fit and target a couple of rocks and go AFK to do house work while your ore hold fills up or you could stay at the keyboard ready to warp out if someone pops in to harass you. Both players will earn money and the AFK miner may even get away with it a few days or so without a problem but eventually the active miner will pay off much more as his barge isn't destroyed as often if at all.
Cista2
EVE Museum
#27 - 2016-08-26 16:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
Kelly Traklamor wrote:
a more useful way to look at the 0.01-isking is that it is simply the game mechanism by which a logged on and active trading player has the advantage over logged off or AFK traders.

Which leads to, by means of logic, that the more casual player necessarily (on most market days) must apply a different strategy than 0.01 ISKing in order to increase profit / time.
It is a neverending source of amusement that 0.01 ISKers do not understand this simple deduction.

My channel: "Signatures" -

Cooyaw
Cajun Fast Mart
#28 - 2016-09-10 01:01:22 UTC
if GetMarketOrderAdjustmentOP =< int(.01)
do action.UnsubscribeEve
elseif GetMarketOrderAdjustmentOP == int(.01)
do action.LearnLesson
Dos Bek
Open Market Operations
#29 - 2016-09-11 20:00:25 UTC
Work harder and/or smarter?

In Eve, as in life, there is no free lunch.

In my first few months of building and selling (I don't trade), I did the 0.01 isk waltz. I stopped. Made me dizzy.

My first several months of building/selling are not represented in this table.

http://imgur.com/HacUidO

Those are sales from about 6 dozen different T1 items.

I suppose the gross sales and margin would be higher if I did T2 items.

I spend at most 6 hours per week which includes hauls my own stuff to/from an off-NPC build location.
Raz Xym
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2016-09-13 02:26:23 UTC
Parker Rush wrote:
Dear ccp,

Please fix markets ^^^^^ this bad, no good.

Parker



The way to fix this is to stop changing orders by 0.01.

I find when I constantly change my orders by a much larger factor, they stop constantly making 0.01 changes or start acting irrationally.

It is in your hands. Act accordingly.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#31 - 2016-09-13 04:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Agrivar

I hate you. Big smile

I put stuff on the market. If it sells, then wonderful.

If not, I put it lower and repeat. I am out blowing stuff up, I don't have time to sit there and play the 0.01 isk war with some dude.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#32 - 2016-09-14 05:52:58 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I agree. I need to learn to speak idiot, it would be a useful life skill


after 20 years in commercial media, I thought I was fluent in Idiot.
I was wrong. oh so very wrong.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

tightface
Market Insights
#33 - 2016-09-17 03:31:05 UTC
There exist methods to combat .01 isking in most markets today. For high quantity items, you could instead of setting up a single large order, layer with a bunch of smaller orders at multiple prices to obtain an average price you are good with. That means having some sell orders lower than what you would be comfortable with if it was a single large order. The same applied to buy orders. If the margins are uncomfortably low, existing large orders shouldn't move down to be the best offer (because they already locked in the broker fee at the higher price).. or there is reason to believe the price is still profitable (i.e., buying the components and manufacturing is still profitable at a lower price). Its called price discovery.

Another method to combat station traders is to reduce the spread by acting on both sides of the trade. So if your intent is to sell a large lot, and the spread is too wide, you can place some buy orders much higher, baiting larger buy orders to close the spread, until station traders decide it is no longer worthwhile.

And regarding the minimum tick size based on the price of the commodity, I'd be for that. Minerals could keep their .01 tick, and high value items (PLEX/SI/SE) could have a min tick of say 1mm. FWIW, in the STIRS (short term interest rates) futures markets, which are a low volatility, high volume instrument, exchanges implement a size priority allocation system called pro rata. In a pro rata scheme, a crossing order is spread out among multiple resting orders at the same price. So small traders and large traders both get a piece of the action, though large orders are prioritized. Check the CME pro-rata example for a visual.
Alexi Borizkova
New Age Solutions
#34 - 2016-09-20 19:41:47 UTC
I like the idea of a scaling fee for changing orders. If there is a fee for listing, a fee for selling, and a fee for altering, it would make marketing a more strategic game. Say you have 5k units to sell, you might list them as five separate batches of 1k at separate price points, letting those wholesale and tycoon skills come into play.

Then again, I think the single greatest failing in eve is the genericized market, there is no way to create automated or semi-automated systems for brand loyalty and customer rewards. If sellers could offer standings based discounts, loyalty point awards for purchases, etc, as integrated features (as opposed to tedious spreadsheet antics) it would be fantastic.
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-09-20 22:51:32 UTC
Alexi Borizkova wrote:
I like the idea of a scaling fee for changing orders. If there is a fee for listing, a fee for selling, and a fee for altering, it would make marketing a more strategic game. Say you have 5k units to sell, you might list them as five separate batches of 1k at separate price points, letting those wholesale and tycoon skills come into play.

Then again, I think the single greatest failing in eve is the genericized market, there is no way to create automated or semi-automated systems for brand loyalty and customer rewards. If sellers could offer standings based discounts, loyalty point awards for purchases, etc, as integrated features (as opposed to tedious spreadsheet antics) it would be fantastic.



My brand loyalty is to the cheapest price. If you have the lowest sell order, I'm your biggest fan....until you're not. In terms of "loyalty points", this had been implemented to a certain degree with citadels. I have received emails from an owner or 2 that I've set orders up in telling me my fee rate has been lowered. The more I deal the lower it goes.

However, once more citadels popped up everyone went to .1 and on top of that, I think they have all been shut down. Sad
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