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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

First post First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1161 - 2016-09-12 11:14:04 UTC
they kinda just sounds like a bad idea... all that would do is cause people to brick tank their ships with no damage mods for any fight expected to get that large. E-war would become pointless as you would no longer need it for application or reducing incoming damage. Resists would go out in favor of Raw HP. there would be no need for sub commanders as logi and E-war become less relevant.

currently Logi and alpha are what give us the need for good FCs and even mid sized fights are full of sub FCs for E-war Logi sub cap and capital DPS.

in these fights you are not trying to kill every enemy ship you "win" once the enemy DPS can no longer get through your reps. for some reason many people find this dull and a problem with RR and alpha. Really it puts you into a tactical environment much more like real combat. Where you are not annihilating the enemy army in a battle but breaking them and forcing a retreat.
Ivan Beer
Thistles and Thorns
#1162 - 2016-09-12 11:20:26 UTC
Hello.

I wanted to type a few (very few) words about this update (?)

Umm, So, first off I have a question:


Why is their going to be a visual effect??



Second Question:

The Orca I purchased (on contracts) well before this potential update was even posted has the (?older?) high slot fitting modules. So, in about 45 more days from now, when I can actually fly that ship I will not be able to use the (high slot) mining links that are fitted on it? I do not know, hence the question.

Lastly,

I do not do PvP, I just Mine the ore I find in the asteroid belts. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated, I thank you in advance.

Cheers!

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1163 - 2016-09-12 11:25:13 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
they kinda just sounds like a bad idea... all that would do is cause people to brick tank their ships with no damage mods for any fight expected to get that large. E-war would become pointless as you would no longer need it for application or reducing incoming damage. Resists would go out in favor of Raw HP. there would be no need for sub commanders as logi and E-war become less relevant.

currently Logi and alpha are what give us the need for good FCs and even mid sized fights are full of sub FCs for E-war Logi sub cap and capital DPS.

in these fights you are not trying to kill every enemy ship you "win" once the enemy DPS can no longer get through your reps. for some reason many people find this dull and a problem with RR and alpha. Really it puts you into a tactical environment much more like real combat. Where you are not annihilating the enemy army in a battle but breaking them and forcing a retreat.

Rubbish.
Resists would matter because it would mean more DPS ships need to engage you to hit your DPS cap.
Ewar would not become irrelevant because it would still be key to break DPS incoming on your key ships or logi repping their key ships.
And it would mean you could always break reps on a ship but it would be a slower thing allowing the targeted pilot time to actually fight, rather than instant death

Alpha is what removes the need for decent squad commanders as soon as you hit instant volley size.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1164 - 2016-09-12 11:47:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Alpha is what removes the need for decent squad commanders as soon as you hit instant volley size.


no because you still need FCs for things like E-war and logi ect you try to get one guy doing that and you will be left with cluttered coms and your FC will suffer cardiac arrest
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1165 - 2016-09-12 11:50:11 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
they kinda just sounds like a bad idea... all that would do is cause people to brick tank their ships with no damage mods for any fight expected to get that large. E-war would become pointless as you would no longer need it for application or reducing incoming damage. Resists would go out in favor of Raw HP. there would be no need for sub commanders as logi and E-war become less relevant.

currently Logi and alpha are what give us the need for good FCs and even mid sized fights are full of sub FCs for E-war Logi sub cap and capital DPS.

in these fights you are not trying to kill every enemy ship you "win" once the enemy DPS can no longer get through your reps. for some reason many people find this dull and a problem with RR and alpha. Really it puts you into a tactical environment much more like real combat. Where you are not annihilating the enemy army in a battle but breaking them and forcing a retreat.

Rubbish.
Resists would matter because it would mean more DPS ships need to engage you to hit your DPS cap.
Ewar would not become irrelevant because it would still be key to break DPS incoming on your key ships or logi repping their key ships.
And it would mean you could always break reps on a ship but it would be a slower thing allowing the targeted pilot time to actually fight, rather than instant death

Alpha is what removes the need for decent squad commanders as soon as you hit instant volley size.



Ahahaha nope

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lugh Crow-Slave
#1166 - 2016-09-12 11:51:11 UTC
Ivan Beer wrote:
Hello.

I wanted to type a few (very few) words about this update (?)

Umm, So, first off I have a question:


Why is their going to be a visual effect??



Second Question:

The Orca I purchased (on contracts) well before this potential update was even posted has the (?older?) high slot fitting modules. So, in about 45 more days from now, when I can actually fly that ship I will not be able to use the (high slot) mining links that are fitted on it? I do not know, hence the question.

Lastly,

I do not do PvP, I just Mine the ore I find in the asteroid belts. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated, I thank you in advance.

Cheers!



visual effect so that people on both sides know what is going on

second the mods are not going to go anywhere there stats will change to become the new ones
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1167 - 2016-09-12 12:59:56 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ivan Beer wrote:
Hello.

I wanted to type a few (very few) words about this update (?)

Umm, So, first off I have a question:


Why is their going to be a visual effect??



Second Question:

The Orca I purchased (on contracts) well before this potential update was even posted has the (?older?) high slot fitting modules. So, in about 45 more days from now, when I can actually fly that ship I will not be able to use the (high slot) mining links that are fitted on it? I do not know, hence the question.

Lastly,

I do not do PvP, I just Mine the ore I find in the asteroid belts. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated, I thank you in advance.

Cheers!



visual effect so that people on both sides know what is going on

second the mods are not going to go anywhere there stats will change to become the new ones
Sorry Lugh but your wrong, the modules are changing from 3 different modules with different attributes to 1 module with 3 different types of "ammo" (silly idea). Orca especially will be hit hard by this. It has 3 highslots of which (since barge and exhumer buffs capacitor link is redundant, unless you run an active tank) 2 can be used for links, 1 for a tractor beam to more easily scoop cans.
Post November, all 3 highslots will be used for links, 2 for mining, 1 for shield. NB; Shield link will make little difference in a pvp situation, your orca gets red boxed, consider it dead. They just aren't designed to survive or defend themselves.

IMO the visual is only there to make it easier for the opposing side to see who to primary. Devs expectation is that every fleet will have numerous boosters travelling with them, so to make it easier for opposing fleets to see who is boosting at a given time, they included a target marker (visual effect).

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1168 - 2016-09-12 13:51:09 UTC
I really like the idea of buffs for anybody within range. White knighting in highsec should be a thing. Maybe make this an ammo variant? 'Promiscuous Shield Command Burst' would fit with your current naming scheme...

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1169 - 2016-09-12 17:07:09 UTC
Just to let everyone know, we currently plan on releasing the blueprints for the command burst charges in our October release so people can start building them in prep for the changeover in November.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1170 - 2016-09-12 19:02:46 UTC
Regarding the blueprints: I'm glad to see that strontium clathrates aren't an ingredient. They're under TREMENDOUS pressure right now, and don't really need more use.

However, one thing that could use a little love is Liquid Ozone. Have you considered adding Liquid Ozone to the ingredient list as well?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Laurens Punani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1171 - 2016-09-12 20:21:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok let's answer some other questions and update the plan a bit more!

Some of you have expressed concern that the "Mining Equipment Preservation" burst isn't valuable enough. I'll start out by saying that not every link needs to be of equal power and that the consolidation of cycle time and cap use into one link is a big buff even if the new 3rd link isn't something you'll always use. However we are interested in hearing from you about what kinds of bonuses you think would be interesting as a replacement for the Mining Equipment Preservation effect. We'll give consideration to your ideas and see if a better option comes up.

[....]

Like I said above, we're working hard on the next dev blog (focusing on the Mining Foreman gameplay role and the Porpoise/Orca/Rorqual) and we hope to get that out to you all soon.
Thanks everyone for the continued feedback!



Nice to hear that the next dev blog is on its way!

I totally agree, that not every link needs an equal counterpart in the new system ; If everyone gets slightly worse boosts the prices might go up a little and it wont change much for the average miner. Considering this, it's pretty important to know if the Rorqual will be able to move while the indu-core is activated... If not, big alliances with the ability to form defense fleets at any given time will get better boosts most of the time, and the income of the average miner will drop. --> 10% less income is a pretty big deal if you have to mine for 25 hours a month just to pay the plex (i just wanted to post it so i can be salty if things dont work out the way i want them to :-P )

If the Rorqual IS able to move while boosting at full potential and lots of them are on grid, i'd say the boosts are fine the way they are. Having boosts for mining drones would not really help, since players willing to field a rorqual will most likely be willing to use hulks for maximum yield... long story short: the cargohold is too small for 2 cycles + drones, even without a boost for them.
If, on the other hand, you could assign your drones to your booster ship and fill it's cargo with ore this kind of boost could be REALLY great and encourage bigger mining fleets since the booster ( for example the Porpoise withput mining-fighters) would be able to profit while helping other people without an own boosting char...

A pretty gimmicky alternative would be an increased range for interactions with containers and fleet-hangars. a 50 km boost range does not really help it the whole mining op has to stay within 2.5 km of a container... good for people who actually use containers, but totally useless if you warp to a station/pos to drop off the ore. (but i guess the crystal preservation link is useless unless you actually use crystals...)
XxUltradmbxX
Space Colony
Synergy of Steel
#1172 - 2016-09-12 23:43:46 UTC
rip mining missions thanks ccp
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1173 - 2016-09-12 23:47:23 UTC
XxUltradmbxX wrote:
rip mining missions thanks ccp

Explain? Don't see any problem with mining missions.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#1174 - 2016-09-13 00:08:33 UTC
XxUltradmbxX wrote:
rip mining missions thanks ccp



Boosts won't run 23/7 now. They max out around 5 hours before you need to reload the new boosting device.

Boosts won't cover an entire system. Instead, you'll need to stick an Orca out in a belt now.

Boosts won't give you the same amount they do now. See CCP Fozzie's post on this.



Once again I'll say this ....

Mining boosts are not logistics boosts are not combat boosts. They are three completely different styles of gameplay being lumped into a single category because someone can't tell the different.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1175 - 2016-09-13 00:13:45 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:


Boosts won't cover an entire system. Instead, you'll need to stick an Orca out in a belt now.




Or you know, stick the new Porpoise in a Belt. or heck, even stick a T1 BC in the belt.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#1176 - 2016-09-13 00:27:05 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Or you know, stick the new Porpoise in a Belt. or heck, even stick a T1 BC in the belt.




Then what's the point of mining with boosts? If you're not getting the bonus from the Rorqual/Orca/Porpoise, then why even do it?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1177 - 2016-09-13 00:59:49 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Or you know, stick the new Porpoise in a Belt. or heck, even stick a T1 BC in the belt.




Then what's the point of mining with boosts? If you're not getting the bonus from the Rorqual/Orca/Porpoise, then why even do it?

Same reason you mined with boosts before, it was more effective than mining without them.
Draden Alderland
Khanid - Industries
#1178 - 2016-09-13 01:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Draden Alderland
First let me say:

I see and like the idea for the combat based bonuses and support it, it should make the PVP world more enjoyable indeed.

That being said though I struggle to see the need for the Mining boosts to be bursts

with the ever increasing war decks against industry & mining corporations I don't see how forcing very difficult to defend Orcas and mining barges/exhumers to sit in a single ore belts adds any value to anyone but HS war decking corps.

How does this bring more excitement to industry groups that already struggles to get anything done.

This is just pure candy to the gankers and entices them to war deck Mining corps even more to pad there Kill boards.

___________________________________________


So here are some thoughts for you:

Stop trying to make the entire game about PVP and start focusing on enticing new players to stick around. Might help get the avg. online player base back to the 40-50k range again. Not everyone wants to kill someone else in the game stop making it more and more difficult on industry folks.

You need to consider how you entice new people to play not how you make it easier for gankers to walk away with billions in easy kills.

If you don't start focusing on ways to allow young players to get a foot hold, learn skills, and survive without constant struggle from players who have years of experience you are likely to soon see your numbers dwindle to <10k on line at peek hours.

The game needs to work on protecting new players and enticing them to be around 3-5 years down the road, not making it easier for experienced ganker corps to walk away with billions in easy kills by forcing expensive industry ships to sit in silly situations.

Start looking at ways to allow non PVP players to enjoy the game not just be cannon fodder for people to scared to go fight against ships/pilots that can fight back.

My 2 cents. Lol
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1179 - 2016-09-13 02:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Draden Alderland wrote:


Start looking at ways to allow non PVP players to enjoy the game not just be cannon fodder for people to scared to go fight against ships/pilots that can fight back.

My 2 cents. Lol

This is the only part of your rant worth a reply.
However you are going the wrong way. Don't magically change the game to allow non PvP play immunity.
Change the ships to have real fittings so they can fit weapons & fit active tanks, prop mods & the rest of it that combat ships fit.
The real problem is CCP trying to make modern industrial concepts from a time of effective peace (For industry anyway) work in an environment more akin to the spanish main with constant piracy and attacks on said vessels.
They built 'Industrial' tanks in WW2 for bridging, trench filling, mine clearing and all the rest of the works that were equally armoured and had guns that gave them a fighting chance, (if not as good as a dedicated CBT) they can do the same with the mining vessels. And no the Procurer is not already there, it has next to no cap, half the slots of a cruiser, no internal weapons, only a single flight of light drones (Compared to the Full flight of sentries certain cruisers get), no PG & no CPU relative to cruisers also.

This is though, a topic for another thread (Like the mining barge revamp thread in fact, where it's already been brought up).
And nothing to do with boosts.
Apollo Outamon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1180 - 2016-09-13 05:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Apollo Outamon
CCP Phantom wrote:
Exciting news! For the November expansion the world of fleet boosting will be revolutionized with the removal of passive, off-grid boosters in exchange for new, active, on-grid boosters.

When loaded with the proper ammo and activated, Command Bursts modules will provide time limited, area-of-effect based bonuses to fleet members in range of the ship activating the burst.

For details and numbers, please check out the latest blog Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting.

This is the first blog in a series, more will follow with additional details!


This is not exciting news to over 3/4 of your industrialist players.In high sec i can see players having on grid mining boosts because of the cost of running POS's or the cost of obtaining a citadel. most of your players aren't rich in game and that includes corps. big alliences and corps do not speak for all of eve. I can see where they would want this.
In null sec on grid boosting is pretty much the death of mining in null sec and possibly large parts of low as well. Any of the boost capable ships will be target number one for pvpers which we will not want to put out just to get yet more pvpers to come to our area because they notice an increase in boost ship kills for that system.

there will be less mining going on in eve. less building. higher prices and eventually less pvp.
i have spoken to many corps, alliences and individual players on this matter and not one of them like this idea. listening to the players for what we want is great. changing an entire system to benefit pvp is not 1 of those great ideas. This changing of the mining boost system is going to cause miners to stop mining in great numbers across eve.

http://imgur.com/xsIz6Hj