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Matari: Where are we now and where are we headed?
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James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#201 - 2016-09-12 01:58:14 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
On the role the Ammatar Mandate might play, being as it is a non-independent section of the Empire, under the administration of the very conservative House Ardishapur.

Well, thank you, that was helpful.

Arrendis wrote:
"unlike your pathetic attempts to bandwagon."
As to pathetic attempts... I defer to your obvious expertise.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Arrendis
TK Corp
#202 - 2016-09-12 02:00:51 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
On the role the Ammatar Mandate might play, being as it is a non-independent section of the Empire, under the administration of the very conservative House Ardishapur.

Well, thank you, that was helpful.


And thus, why I told you to keep reading. Had you done so, instead of getting snarky, you might have actually found that sooner, and not made yourself look foolish.

Quote:
As to pathetic attempts... I defer to your obvious expertise.


Tsk. And now you attempt to get a rise out of me with an obvious dig. Even Kim manages better snipes.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#203 - 2016-09-12 02:03:46 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Tsk. And now you attempt to get a rise out of me with an obvious dig. Even Kim manages better snipes.
I was just answering in kind, but I agree, you and she have a lot in common.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Arrendis
TK Corp
#204 - 2016-09-12 02:51:38 UTC
I'm not the one who started throwing around accusations without actually seeing if they were justified.
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#205 - 2016-09-12 02:59:20 UTC
Sigh, did we have to revisit that part of the conversation? It wasn't exactly my swiftest moment, and I've been waiting for it to fade from memory.Roll
Arrendis
TK Corp
#206 - 2016-09-12 03:35:32 UTC
Felise Selunix wrote:
Sigh, did we have to revisit that part of the conversation? It wasn't exactly my swiftest moment, and I've been waiting for it to fade from memory.Roll


Pfft. You were fine. We were spitballing ideas. Sometimes, it's the most unlikely things that spark an unexpected answer.
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#207 - 2016-09-12 03:53:59 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Felise Selunix wrote:
Sigh, did we have to revisit that part of the conversation? It wasn't exactly my swiftest moment, and I've been waiting for it to fade from memory.Roll


Pfft. You were fine. We were spitballing ideas. Sometimes, it's the most unlikely things that spark an unexpected answer.


*raises glass*. Here, here. I've got to get you to talk to my mother. To hear her talk, I shouldn't be speaking in public without special supervision. But enough of my family crap. Carry on all...
Arrendis
TK Corp
#208 - 2016-09-12 04:32:41 UTC
Felise Selunix wrote:
*raises glass*. Here, here. I've got to get you to talk to my mother. To hear her talk, I shouldn't be speaking in public without special supervision. But enough of my family crap. Carry on all...


Heh. Mine's favorite saying is 'There are no stupid ideas. Only crazy ideas we don't have the right situation to misuse.'
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#209 - 2016-09-12 05:04:08 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Felise Selunix wrote:
*raises glass*. Here, here. I've got to get you to talk to my mother. To hear her talk, I shouldn't be speaking in public without special supervision. But enough of my family crap. Carry on all...


Heh. Mine's favorite saying is 'There are no stupid ideas. Only crazy ideas we don't have the right situation to misuse.'


Good one. Moms: A never-ending source of loaded-one liners and wise advice, whether you want them or not. I told my mom she needed to push for her own show. She told me that I should eat more and recheck my sales inventory. Kiddalla Selunix everybody!
Matar Ronin
#210 - 2016-09-12 19:06:06 UTC
Felise Selunix wrote:
At this moment in history, I thought it might be a good time for we of the Matari diaspora to stop and take stock and share our thoughts about where we're headed. Over the past century, the Republic has grown prosp...well, it's been established at least and in that time, we've seen many important international events, the most recent being the Elder War.

At the same time, several factors remain important--relations with the Gallente, Amarr, Ammatar, and Caldari neighbors, relations with CONCORD all remain in flux. Alongside that, there is the increasing status of tribes within the Republican government under Shakor's administration and the continued repatriation of Starkmanir and Nefantar into the Republic, not to mention the experiences of individuals and whole clans that exist outside of the Republic, (and Empire Space for that matter) which of course, comprise the majority of Matari.

So taking all of that into account, along with wider intergalactic events, I was wondering what other Matari thought of the state of the race. What important factors need to be addressed? Where should we be going as a people?

Offhand, I can say my main concern is continuing to strengthen and modernize the Republic economy in order to become a bigger player in international market activity. However, I think that this must happen in accordance with tribal values, which sounds like a contradiction, but doesn't necessarily strike me as one. I also believe that the Republic has to continue to grow and change in order to accommodate our returning Matari in such a way that incorporates their assets while incorporating them into what I consider to be a burgeoning culture. Finally, I think that the Republic must normalize relations with the Empire and the Mandate in order to expand the market for Minstar goods (under favorable conditions, of course).

Just my two isk. What are your thoughts.

Note: While this is primarily aimed at Matari capsuleers, all ideas are, of course welcome. It's an open forum, y'all.
Needless to say there can be no normalization of relations with the slavery cultists in either the empire or the mandate while even one Matari is held in inhuman bondage. The current normal of killing them all until they free us all is the only path forward for any Matari with a spine and the training to fight back, certainly that includes every capsuleer.

The long struggle continues, with each day we are closer to the end of the foul abomination of human slavery in New Eden and we must not ever waiver in our resolve to see it totally eradicated. On the day Matari and amarrians can inhabit the cluster in peace because the slavery cultists no longer direct the efforts of the empire and it's vassals in the Mandate and Caldari State to perpetuate this evil upon any people is the day when normalization of relations will be possible, not one nanosecond before.

The long struggle is the righteous path upon which Matari people have tread since the "Day Of Darkness" when hell spawned barbarians bombarded our peaceful home worlds from their orbiting warships. They have tried to extinguish our culture, our history, our self esteem, over the centuries they have never completely succeeded, and they never will.

The state of the Matari People is strong and growing stronger, we are found in every Empire and our numbers continue to swell. Our cause is just and our supporters continue to rally to our side. We have improved our self governance in the Republic and continue to refine those best practices. Across the Cluster Matari people are still connected and will always be connected by the call for freedom, justice, and liberty for all of humanity.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#211 - 2016-09-12 19:12:14 UTC
Allies, not vassals.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#212 - 2016-09-12 19:35:04 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
The current normal of killing them all until they free us all is the only path forward for any Matari with a spine and the training to fight back, certainly that includes every capsuleer.


And yet, many of us find it just as important to supply part of the economic aid the Tribes need in order to build up our infrastructure. Without that, we cannot bear the economic burdens we currently face, let alone even more. So we must have an eye toward the Tribal economies - it is the only way we can hope to be ready to welcome our people as they are freed.

Quote:

the empire and it's [sic] vassals in the Mandate and Caldari State


The Mandate is a part of the Empire. The State is an ally, not a vassal. I think right now the only 'vassal' state of the Empire is the Khanid Kingdom.
Matar Ronin
#213 - 2016-09-12 20:06:20 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
The current normal of killing them all until they free us all is the only path forward for any Matari with a spine and the training to fight back, certainly that includes every capsuleer.


And yet, many of us find it just as important to supply part of the economic aid the Tribes need in order to build up our infrastructure. Without that, we cannot bear the economic burdens we currently face, let alone even more. So we must have an eye toward the Tribal economies - it is the only way we can hope to be ready to welcome our people as they are freed.

Quote:

the empire and it's [sic] vassals in the Mandate and Caldari State


The Mandate is a part of the Empire. The State is an ally, not a vassal. I think right now the only 'vassal' state of the Empire is the Khanid Kingdom.
Of course here in the conversational environs of the IGS you are entitled to your opinion, however in this case impartial facts will not support you.

Despite what many in the Caldari State might hope or convince themselves of, the actual fact is that the slavery cult empire considers no one their equal and themselves superior to all others.

Even a bad Ally does not openly plan to enslave/ reclaim you for their cult one day, just as soon as they can muster the military/economic force to accomplish it.

The slavery cult empire plans to do that not only to their Caldari vassals but also to every human being who does not kneel before their blood soaked false cult beliefs.

Many of their numerous vassals, servants, and slaves are in a self induced state of denial. For many it is the only way they can stomach supporting the evil that is the slavery cult empire. The khanid may be the only ones who have admitted their status as vassals, but the actual definition of vassal fits the Caldari State like a custom made glove.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#214 - 2016-09-12 20:12:12 UTC
I think you broke your arm patting us on the back, sir.
We have more than enough fiery rhetoric and warmongering. What we need is to take a hard look at what works and what doesn't.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#215 - 2016-09-12 22:01:50 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:

Of course here in the conversational environs of the IGS you are entitled to your opinion, however in this case impartial facts will not support you.

Despite what many in the Caldari State might hope or convince themselves of, the actual fact is that the slavery cult empire considers no one their equal and themselves superior to all others.


Well, see, here's where that whole 'impartial facts' thing trips you up by making you categorically wrong. See, it doesn't matter if the Amarr Empire considers the Caldari State 'trusted allies' or 'slaves who don't know it yet'. What matters is that, in fact, the Caldari State does not in any way have to obey the Amarr Empire, the Empress, the Chamberlain, or anyone affiliated with them. They don't answer to the Amarr - they work with them.

That means they're not slaves, and they're not vassals. A vassal is someone whose authority and/or territory is received, either directly or indirectly by means of heredity, from a higher authority, and who receives that authority explicitly in exchange for service. The Caldari State has not received any of its authority from the Amarr, and I think even Pieter'd be shocked at the idea that the Empire's been giving them their territory all this time.

So, impartial fact: until you change what 'vassal' actually means, no, not vassals.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#216 - 2016-09-12 22:11:24 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:

Of course here in the conversational environs of the IGS you are entitled to your opinion, however in this case impartial facts will not support you.

Despite what many in the Caldari State might hope or convince themselves of, the actual fact is that the slavery cult empire considers no one their equal and themselves superior to all others.


Well, see, here's where that whole 'impartial facts' thing trips you up by making you categorically wrong. See, it doesn't matter if the Amarr Empire considers the Caldari State 'trusted allies' or 'slaves who don't know it yet'. What matters is that, in fact, the Caldari State does not in any way have to obey the Amarr Empire, the Empress, the Chamberlain, or anyone affiliated with them. They don't answer to the Amarr - they work with them.

That means they're not slaves, and they're not vassals. A vassal is someone whose authority and/or territory is received, either directly or indirectly by means of heredity, from a higher authority, and who receives that authority explicitly in exchange for service. The Caldari State has not received any of its authority from the Amarr, and I think even Pieter'd be shocked at the idea that the Empire's been giving them their territory all this time.

So, impartial fact: until you change what 'vassal' actually means, no, not vassals.


I believe the proper term for the Caldari relationship with the Amarr, according to some University of Caille political science textbooks, is:

"Capitalist Running Dog Lackeys of the Imperialist Regime"

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Matar Ronin
#217 - 2016-09-13 00:36:52 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:

Of course here in the conversational environs of the IGS you are entitled to your opinion, however in this case impartial facts will not support you.

Despite what many in the Caldari State might hope or convince themselves of, the actual fact is that the slavery cult empire considers no one their equal and themselves superior to all others.


Well, see, here's where that whole 'impartial facts' thing trips you up by making you categorically wrong. See, it doesn't matter if the Amarr Empire considers the Caldari State 'trusted allies' or 'slaves who don't know it yet'. What matters is that, in fact, the Caldari State does not in any way have to obey the Amarr Empire, the Empress, the Chamberlain, or anyone affiliated with them. They don't answer to the Amarr - they work with them.

That means they're not slaves, and they're not vassals. A vassal is someone whose authority and/or territory is received, either directly or indirectly by means of heredity, from a higher authority, and who receives that authority explicitly in exchange for service. The Caldari State has not received any of its authority from the Amarr, and I think even Pieter'd be shocked at the idea that the Empire's been giving them their territory all this time.

So, impartial fact: until you change what 'vassal' actually means, no, not vassals.
Legal Definition of Vassal State: A vassal state is a state that is supposed to possess and enjoy only those rights that are granted to it by a more powerful state. The term is seen used in the context of international law. A vassal state is any state that is subordinate to another. Being a vassal most commonly implies providing military assistance to the dominant state when requested to do so.

Dictionary Definition of vassal: a holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
synonyms: serf, dependent, servant, slave, subject, bondsman, thrall, villein;
More
a person or country in a subordinate position to another.
"a much stronger nation can also turn a weaker one into a vassal state"

Now unless I am reading this wrong the whole heredity point you are seemingly stuck upon is covered by the empress.

Point of fact the Caldari State is by definition clearly a vassal state of the amarr empire, they feared they could not hold their lands without support from the slavery cult. Subsequently if the slavery cult were to withdraw it's support they might indeed lose their empire if the Gallente are half as bad as the Caldari fear.

If they did not need the slavery cult to keep their state intact why did they affiliate?

You can't have it both ways, they either needed the protection of the slavery cult, or they offered to protect the bigger more powerful empire out of the admiration they hold for the slavers. Which one do you claim it to be?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#218 - 2016-09-13 00:44:43 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
I think you broke your arm patting us on the back, sir.
We have more than enough fiery rhetoric and warmongering. What we need is to take a hard look at what works and what doesn't.
I hear often how we all want substantive debate. Then someone says something like this, and the substantive actors in this little drama, ignore it. For my part, I think he is right.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#219 - 2016-09-13 00:57:42 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:

Of course here in the conversational environs of the IGS you are entitled to your opinion, however in this case impartial facts will not support you.

Despite what many in the Caldari State might hope or convince themselves of, the actual fact is that the slavery cult empire considers no one their equal and themselves superior to all others.


Well, see, here's where that whole 'impartial facts' thing trips you up by making you categorically wrong. See, it doesn't matter if the Amarr Empire considers the Caldari State 'trusted allies' or 'slaves who don't know it yet'. What matters is that, in fact, the Caldari State does not in any way have to obey the Amarr Empire, the Empress, the Chamberlain, or anyone affiliated with them. They don't answer to the Amarr - they work with them.

That means they're not slaves, and they're not vassals. A vassal is someone whose authority and/or territory is received, either directly or indirectly by means of heredity, from a higher authority, and who receives that authority explicitly in exchange for service. The Caldari State has not received any of its authority from the Amarr, and I think even Pieter'd be shocked at the idea that the Empire's been giving them their territory all this time.

So, impartial fact: until you change what 'vassal' actually means, no, not vassals.
Legal Definition of Vassal State: A vassal state is a state that is supposed to possess and enjoy only those rights that are granted to it by a more powerful state. The term is seen used in the context of international law. A vassal state is any state that is subordinate to another. Being a vassal most commonly implies providing military assistance to the dominant state when requested to do so.

Dictionary Definition of vassal: a holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
synonyms: serf, dependent, servant, slave, subject, bondsman, thrall, villein;
More
a person or country in a subordinate position to another.
"a much stronger nation can also turn a weaker one into a vassal state"

Now unless I am reading this wrong the whole heredity point you are seemingly stuck upon is covered by the empress.

Point of fact the Caldari State is by definition clearly a vassal state of the amarr empire, they feared they could not hold their lands without support from the slavery cult. Subsequently if the slavery cult were to withdraw it's support they might indeed lose their empire if the Gallente are half as bad as the Caldari fear.

If they did not need the slavery cult to keep their state intact why did they affiliate?

You can't have it both ways, they either needed the protection of the slavery cult, or they offered to protect the bigger more powerful empire out of the admiration they hold for the slavers. Which one do you claim it to be?
The state is not a Vassal of the Amarrian Empire any more then we are a vassal of the Federation. The Caldari are not required to pay tribute, lend military support on demand, or give/receive territory at the behest of the Amarr. What the Amarrian Empire has with the state is commonly referred to as an "alliance":


al·li·ance

/əˈlīəns/

noun

a union or association formed for mutual benefit, especially between countries or organizations.

"a defensive alliance between The Federation and Republic"

synonyms:association, union, league, confederation, federation, confederacy, coalition, consortium, affiliation, partnership

"a defense alliance"

a relationship based on an affinity in interests, nature, or qualities.

"an alliance between medicine and morality"

synonyms: relationship, affinity, association, connection

"an alliance between medicine and morality"

a state of being joined or associated.

"his party is in alliance with the Greens"

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#220 - 2016-09-13 01:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Neph
Matar Ronin wrote:
Legal Definition of Vassal State: A vassal state is a state that is supposed to possess and enjoy only those rights that are granted to it by a more powerful state. The term is seen used in the context of international law. A vassal state is any state that is subordinate to another. Being a vassal most commonly implies providing military assistance to the dominant state when requested to do so.

Dictionary Definition of vassal: a holder of land by feudal tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance.
synonyms: serf, dependent, servant, slave, subject, bondsman, thrall, villein;
More
a person or country in a subordinate position to another.
"a much stronger nation can also turn a weaker one into a vassal state"

Now unless I am reading this wrong the whole heredity point you are seemingly stuck upon is covered by the empress.

Point of fact the Caldari State is by definition clearly a vassal state of the amarr empire, they feared they could not hold their lands without support from the slavery cult. Subsequently if the slavery cult were to withdraw it's support they might indeed lose their empire if the Gallente are half as bad as the Caldari fear.

If they did not need the slavery cult to keep their state intact why did they affiliate?

You can't have it both ways, they either needed the protection of the slavery cult, or they offered to protect the bigger more powerful empire out of the admiration they hold for the slavers. Which one do you claim it to be?



Maker. The State Navy, is, pound-for-point, the most powerful in New Eden. Our technology is the best and our fleet the most modernized. Maybe it's just nationalist pride, but I'm confident that we could soundly spank any single other invading empire completely alone. Were a coalition risen against us, we'd fall, but their victory would be surely Pyrrhic.

And you call us a vassal state of the Empire? Their forces are greater and their numbers larger, but our alliance with them is one of practical and financial opportunities alone. With the rise of House Tash-Murkon, I expect it to soon pay off many times over. We gain from them, yes, but don't mistake that for some kind of dependence or fear.

Say they withdrew their support, and, may it never happen, but the unsteady peace deteriorates and the Federation invades. We've held the Gallente off before and we can do it again. Why, was it really that long ago that we held Luminaire hostage? While the Empire was still reeling from their own blows? That wasn't done with their support, that was us alone. No, we don't fear the Gallente and we don't need the Empire. We're no vassals, thank you.

Frankly, if anybody is a vassal state, it's the Republic. If the Gallente withdrew their support, you're screwed. The Republic always have been, and until it release the Federal teat and learn to stand on its own, it always will be. Shooting guns on inflatable stations and all that.

EDIT: I'm not saying the Republic is a vassal state. I just wanted to make that clear. But it's close.

EDIT: Also, I think the Republic and the State would both stand to gain from greater economic ties. It's a first step to strengthening bonds with the Federation after that stupid war and also to bring the Republic into a stronger interclusteral position. Frankly, I think the more trade, the more peace. After all, you don't want to shoot the guy you're earning a living off of.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka