These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#301 - 2016-09-11 05:34:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Actually youre incorrect. Its not illegal in most places to interfere in a game. You might be removed by security from the venue but certainly not against the law.

In any case the issue being addressed was not legality it was your opinion that space pixels were not important.


He said it was against the rules, not that it was illegal...although there maybe some legal issue depending on the venue.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#302 - 2016-09-11 05:37:37 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
because they can't seem to tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

it's just a game, why you has to be so fecking mad and i don't mean salty,, i mean totally and utterly bonkers.

when i play BF3 does that mean i long to be deep up to my neck in combat in real life? lol erm no.

when i play rust does that make me some kind of kooky survivalist that's just waiting for the end times ? erm again no.

take a good dose of kop the feck on and try to be a little realistic when it comes to playing a game.

yes,,, a game! Roll nothing more, a place where we play a role to create the game enviroment we all love,,,,,,, EVE

now crazys and bird brains please grab a spoon and get in in.


Although, if you play a zombie game....you really are hoping for the zombie apocalypse.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#303 - 2016-09-11 06:23:27 UTC
Reading posts here....

Those who support theory about reflection post some thoughts. Maybe add some examples.
Those who reject it usually derail the theory, try to attack authors and in general continue in-game behaviour here in forums.

I think this shows something Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#304 - 2016-09-11 07:03:08 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Actually youre incorrect. Its not illegal in most places to interfere in a game. You might be removed by security from the venue but certainly not against the law.

In any case the issue being addressed was not legality it was your opinion that space pixels were not important.


He said it was against the rules, not that it was illegal...although there maybe some legal issue depending on the venue.

That was not the point I was making. My point if you need it explained was that HE may think its not a big deal but others may.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Elite Harvester
Elite Harvesters
#305 - 2016-09-11 07:07:21 UTC
I guess internet spaceships really are serious business. What?

Visit www.MinerBumping.com to find out how you can help save Highsec.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#306 - 2016-09-11 07:16:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Actually youre incorrect. Its not illegal in most places to interfere in a game. You might be removed by security from the venue but certainly not against the law.

In any case the issue being addressed was not legality it was your opinion that space pixels were not important.


He said it was against the rules, not that it was illegal...although there maybe some legal issue depending on the venue.

That was not the point I was making. My point if you need it explained was that HE may think its not a big deal but others may.


Your response makes no sense at all. And stop telling us what other people think Kreskin.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#307 - 2016-09-11 07:29:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Giaus Felix wrote:
They're still pixels and Eve is a game where loss is meaningful; don't like it, don't play it Roll

They might be pixels but so are the pixels on a World Cup Scoreboard. Why don't you go to a world cup game maybe in Brazil, and interfere with a goal, then explain to the crowd its only pixels on that scoreboard....

Or go down the pub and mess up someones pool game and explain to them its just balls on the table and not that important.

If you're still alive come back here and report what you experienced. People play games as a form of entertainment and as a form of hobbying. Many take their games and hobbies very seriously. The former suggestion above will likely get you killed, literally and the latter maybe just bashed.

While in your own mind you might try to excuse your poor behaviour by dismissing the value of X because you feel X is unimportant, your perception is your own and you do not speak for the rest of humanity in regards to the value of X be it EvE, soccer, pool or otherwise.

It's just that blowing up those pixels without your consent is part of the game in EVE. They are basically part of the rules of the game, therefor your analogy does not work.

You have to actually compare it with something which is against the rules, like for example if you would threaten to send your dog after people in RL. It's obvious how this is not within the rules and with that example your analogy would probably work.

Just saying.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#308 - 2016-09-11 07:38:11 UTC
I think that it really boils down to the fact that what you have in EvE is a direct result of the time you've spent in game building it. Some people are more efficient than others at obtaining resources, but the bottom line is that what you have represents real-world time--far more than it represents real-world money.

When you gank someone, you're destroying a proxy for time, which most people consider to be valuable. When you scam, you are doing something similar.

I don't think that makes any of the activities in question inherently bad. We all know the risks when we log in. But people value their time spent in EvE in different ways. Some of them value their time by how much stuff they've been able to accrue. Others value it by how much fun they've been able to accrue.

The most common complaint you hear in local rages and forum posts when someone loses a ship is, "But it took me x number of forevers to get that ship." As far as the victim is concerned, you have robbed something irreplaceable from them: their actual real-life time. That's why they're pissed, and that's why they think you're a bad person. What kind of a person would steal another person's time? A bad person. It's not an illogical progression given the premise.

The more you escalate that into a person's real life, the more legitimate the complaint becomes. It's one thing to have a difference of opinion about the value of time or how time should be spent playing a game. It's quite something else to get involved with a person's actual life and family and later scam them and wreck that friendship in the name of having fun in a game.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#309 - 2016-09-11 07:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
March rabbit wrote:
Reading posts here....

Those who support theory about reflection post some thoughts. Maybe add some examples.
Those who reject it usually derail the theory, try to attack authors and in general continue in-game behaviour here in forums.

I think this shows something Cool


What does it show?

I have seen wellthought out posts, and derails/ad hominem from both sides in this discussion. So I think this is an oversimplification. The main problem is the nature of the discussion.

One side says: players who gank/scam in game would also do this in a society without rules. There has been some reflective nice replies (example 2 example 3)to this, but they got lost in the tidal wave of off topic discussions. And what is the point of this discussion? Saying that someone you do not know is a horrible person, because he plays the game in a certain way?

So apparently I am a horrible person then in RL per use of this reductive logi. But let me ask you this do you really know if that is the case? If there were no rules in society would I behave worse than you? Or are you putting too much emphasis on one of the actions I have done in a computer game, and ignoring all the other actions that have done in my life? I would hope people would stop judging each other, based on simplified speculative theories ignoring the complexity of the human mind.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#310 - 2016-09-11 07:56:54 UTC
Elite Harvester wrote:
I guess internet spaceships really are serious business. What?


Ironically, it is for those who never leave HS and have a completely wrong understanding of the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2016-09-11 08:07:25 UTC
Glathull wrote:
I think that it really boils down to the fact that what you have in EvE is a direct result of the time you've spent in game building it. Some people are more efficient than others at obtaining resources, but the bottom line is that what you have represents real-world time--far more than it represents real-world money.

When you gank someone, you're destroying a proxy for time, which most people consider to be valuable. When you scam, you are doing something similar.

I don't think that makes any of the activities in question inherently bad. We all know the risks when we log in. But people value their time spent in EvE in different ways. Some of them value their time by how much stuff they've been able to accrue. Others value it by how much fun they've been able to accrue.

The most common complaint you hear in local rages and forum posts when someone loses a ship is, "But it took me x number of forevers to get that ship." As far as the victim is concerned, you have robbed something irreplaceable from them: their actual real-life time. That's why they're pissed, and that's why they think you're a bad person. What kind of a person would steal another person's time? A bad person. It's not an illogical progression given the premise.

The more you escalate that into a person's real life, the more legitimate the complaint becomes. It's one thing to have a difference of opinion about the value of time or how time should be spent playing a game. It's quite something else to get involved with a person's actual life and family and later scam them and wreck that friendship in the name of having fun in a game.


Well excuse me for managing my time better than those people. If we take this into rl people who use their time efficiently are praised and are successful and subsequently envied by lesser people.

So in conclusion, those whiners are actually just jealous that someone can come and blow up the ship they spent days getting in a few minutes and are too disorganised and dumb to do it themselves
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#312 - 2016-09-11 08:11:12 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
If there were no rules in society would I behave worse than you?


If there were no rules in society, there would be no society and the quality of your conduct would be moot, since worse or better are relative to standards.
Calling you a bad person IRL because of ingame conduct is usually an impotent venting whine, as i've mentioned previously in this thread, i have to know someone before i can call them a bad person or not.
Some of us lie, cheat and steal ingame because it's part of the game. Well played and gf. Some of us are liars, cheats and thieves. It's knowing the difference that allows a more relaxed and light hearted approach to it all.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#313 - 2016-09-11 08:50:44 UTC
Glathull wrote:
I don't think that makes any of the activities in question inherently bad. We all know the risks when we log in.


No. All of us clearly do NOT know the risks. If we did CODE. would not be out ganking freighters with 8 billion ISK worth of cargo.

The very fact that ganking exists indicates that people are completely unaware of the risks. So...should they be angry at the person who has ruined all that time they have spent "building something" or should they be angry at themselves for their own ignorance?

Many of these players play as if they are in a space simulator with a bunch of NPCs. They do not pay attention to ANYTHING when it comes to their game play and being prudent. CODE. makes no effort at all to hide what they are. None. When there were Burn Jita events freighters came in fat and stupid even though there was literally zero effort to hide these events. In fact, they were openly discussed on numerous websites days and weeks before they happened.

These players want to play in a cocoon of ignorance and then rage when it bites them in the ass. These players cannot even be arsed to use a ****ing scout. A guy in a freaking noob ship could solve alot of their problems. "Hey, there are a lot of CODE guys online in Uedama, dock up, dock up!!" Or even noting there is a large number of people with criminal timers in system.

No, they overload their freighter, then of they go with a giant "KICK ME!!!" sign they stuck on their of ****ing back and then wonder "WTF, why are they bumping me!?! Why are THEY SHOOTING ME!?!?!?"

If I could have less than zero sympathy for them I would.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#314 - 2016-09-11 09:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
So there I am today listening to an econtalk podcast. The topic was Austrian economics (it is a school of thought, not about the economy of Austria...not to impugn the economy of Austria) and the guest was Pete Boettke. He made the following commennt (I am going by memory so it won't be an exact quote but pretty close),

Quote:
"Humans have two propensities, the first is to truck, barter and exchange and the other is ****, pillage and plunder. Which one we pick depends on the rules and institutions that are in place. Good rules and institutions will lead to truck, barter and exchange. Bad rules to ****, pillage and plunder."


What makes EVE interesting is that you can do both or more accurately have both right next to each other. I do invention to help fund my PvP. So there I am moving billions of ISK in stuff around in game. At the same time we have CODE. and other ganking groups. We also have scammers, corp thieves, etc.

To the extent you are a victim of ****, pillage and plunder is to a large extent dependent on what you do. If you overload our freighter and undock in Jita and head out on a course through Uedama you will eventually run into trouble doing that. But if you know the "rules and the institutions" of the game you can AVOID this. I know, because I avoid it every single time I move billions of ISK around HS. Same goes for Red Frog Freight.

This notion that CCP needs to do something is just idiotic. No, what is needed is for people to not be imprudent. And to the extent that people do not want to learn this...well...groups like CODE. are there to help them learn that valuable lesson. Oh, and as an added bonus, it can help in real life too.

FFS, I can't believe I had to Goddamn write that. Roll

Edit:

The podcast can be found here. I listen to them when out running errands and when stuck in traffic.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

morion
Lighting Build
#315 - 2016-09-11 09:22:57 UTC
Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
#316 - 2016-09-11 10:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr LaboratoryRat
Lacori wrote:
I've seen this countless times, and I've been playing for over a decade...

Which is probably why I draw the line at certain activities, even though I condone those activities by others who chose to do them. Case in point, scamming your own corp or being a long-term spy, and by that I mean not a couple of weeks here and there. I mean actually going to the trouble of befriending the people you intend to scam, including knowing them outside of the game, having meet-ups in real life, hell even driving across states and meeting their wives and kids. I've seen this happen, very rarely, but it does happen. I question the mental state of such people, but Eve is a sandbox, and who are we to judge?

Even though I wouldn't go that far, I've done my fair share of piracy, high sec ganking, made a few newbs cry when I used to FC, and I did run with CODE for a short spell. The smack talk I've received is far worse than any I've dished out, I've had miners whose ship I've just popped talking about raping my mom, whereas all I've done is engaged in perfectly legit tactics within an open world space sandbox. I question the mental state of these people even more, as clearly the line between fiction and reality is well and truly blurred.

People also make the assumption that if you have a leaning toward a PvP playstyle, then you must have no life outside of the game. I could say the same about industrialists, but why would I? I have a wife and kids, I do stuff with them, I play ball with my friends and I work (hard) to provide for my family....and in my spare time I occasionally grief pixel spaceships from my desk.

TL;DR Confused why so many people assume that pirates/griefers are assholes IRL.



It is not what we do, but how we do certain type of things, that determin who we are.

You,... for instance; like to talk about yourselve and the things you do. It sais that you are egocentric orientated and are not very successfull with having many friends with not similar character properties. People who are not like that, probaly find those types of people assholes.

The pirates/griefers playing style make assholes feel good, so what more can i say: Not everyone, but most people are more likely to be assholes in that playingstyle?

Etherway: self reflection is the way to enlighment

Where is Zahara Cody? He could learn from this.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2016-09-11 11:06:32 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Reading posts here....

Those who support theory about reflection post some thoughts. Maybe add some examples.
Those who reject it usually derail the theory, try to attack authors and in general continue in-game behaviour here in forums.

I think this shows something Cool


What does it show?

I have seen wellthought out posts, and derails/ad hominem from both sides in this discussion. So I think this is an oversimplification. The main problem is the nature of the discussion.

One side says: players who gank/scam in game would also do this in a society without rules. There has been some reflective nice replies (example 2 example 3)to this, but they got lost in the tidal wave of off topic discussions. And what is the point of this discussion? Saying that someone you do not know is a horrible person, because he plays the game in a certain way?

So apparently I am a horrible person then in RL per use of this reductive logi. But let me ask you this do you really know if that is the case? If there were no rules in society would I behave worse than you? Or are you putting too much emphasis on one of the actions I have done in a computer game, and ignoring all the other actions that have done in my life? I would hope people would stop judging each other, based on simplified speculative theories ignoring the complexity of the human mind.

If you attack people personally in a computer game, find pleasure in the idea that you just upset someone somewhere on the internets and its not simply smirking at someone making an ass of themselves, enter into a friendship with a group of people in game and on comms / forums / RL and then steal from them, attempt to cause other people to be upset in real life or try to dox them, or interfere in their job, relationship etc over a game then yes you would be considered a bad person in real life by most people.

If you keep things in game and are able to separate your in game actions from RL, even if you're a pirate, ganker, whatever, then your probably okay.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#318 - 2016-09-11 11:08:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
Mr LaboratoryRat wrote:

The pirates/griefers playing style make assholes feel good, so what more can i say: Not everyone, but most people are more likely to be assholes in that playingstyle?


That does not make sense. Assertion, assumption--------->conclusion with a question mark.

Mr LaboratoryRat wrote:

Etherway: self reflection is the way to enlighment


Westerners have loaded the word enlightenment with positive baggage, conflating it with other strangely positive words like 'more' and 'new' when in fact Illumination is to be avoided as it forces people to change their lives forever and replaces all faith with knowledge.

Infinity Ziona wrote:

If you attack people personally in a computer game,


Ah come on, you've called people plebs and worse in this thread for post after post, it says something about you doesn't it?

This thread is making terrible sounds as it scrapes across the shallows, i'll leave it now, it's been a hoot, no troll.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#319 - 2016-09-11 13:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

If you attack people personally in a computer game,


Ah come on, you've called people plebs and worse in this thread for post after post, it says something about you doesn't it?

This thread is making terrible sounds as it scrapes across the shallows, i'll leave it now, it's been a hoot, no troll.
The second rule of being Infinity Ziona:

"Do as I say, not as I do".



Edit the thread that comes from is epic, so sad that it was before my time.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#320 - 2016-09-11 13:08:24 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Glathull wrote:
I don't think that makes any of the activities in question inherently bad. We all know the risks when we log in.


No. All of us clearly do NOT know the risks. If we did CODE. would not be out ganking freighters with 8 billion ISK worth of cargo.

The very fact that ganking exists indicates that people are completely unaware of the risks. So...should they be angry at the person who has ruined all that time they have spent "building something" or should they be angry at themselves for their own ignorance?

Many of these players play as if they are in a space simulator with a bunch of NPCs. They do not pay attention to ANYTHING when it comes to their game play and being prudent. CODE. makes no effort at all to hide what they are. None. When there were Burn Jita events freighters came in fat and stupid even though there was literally zero effort to hide these events. In fact, they were openly discussed on numerous websites days and weeks before they happened.

These players want to play in a cocoon of ignorance and then rage when it bites them in the ass. These players cannot even be arsed to use a ****ing scout. A guy in a freaking noob ship could solve alot of their problems. "Hey, there are a lot of CODE guys online in Uedama, dock up, dock up!!" Or even noting there is a large number of people with criminal timers in system.

No, they overload their freighter, then of they go with a giant "KICK ME!!!" sign they stuck on their of ****ing back and then wonder "WTF, why are they bumping me!?! Why are THEY SHOOTING ME!?!?!?"

If I could have less than zero sympathy for them I would.


Problem is when you read the names of the Lots of code guys ready to gank, the names are like:

John deep
Marie strend
John Konie
Jonny Konie
Johnsin Konie
Jonathan Konie
Jonathin Konie
Jim Konie
Jimmi Konie
Jimmy Konie
Jin Konie
Jinny Konie
Jinnny Konie