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Holes of Worms

Author
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#21 - 2016-09-09 19:32:29 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Nanoribbons drop mainly from battleship wrecks when salvaged, you only start to get significant battleship spawns in c4 space and above. C4 anomalies are a pain in the ass to run so it used to be down to the people running c5/6 space to produce the bulk of these.
We own, among other things, a tower in a C1. Occasionally (read: when a corp member feels like it/gets bored) running anoms in that C1 gets the corporation enough Nanoribbons to pay for the tower fuel and then some.

In other words, Nanoribbons drop everywhere in W-space. In abundance.

Of course one can argue that that might be one of the perceived problems of W-space. Then again, we enjoy our self dabbling on the poor and easy side of W-space..Smile

And ultimately that is the core, enjoyment in playing a game.

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......

Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-09-09 20:00:56 UTC
Buddy list ruined wormhole space.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
#23 - 2016-09-09 21:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Celeste Coeval
Pookoko wrote:
I asked this question in WH forum so I don't want to cross-post the whole thing into here, but I don't understand how this new changes work. What?

I hear people say high end WH became "less lucrative", yet after returning from almost a year long break I find that melted nanoribbons price is really low now. There must be something I'm missing... if it became harder to farm high end WH, why are WH materials & T3 stuff prices so low now? I've seen T3 hulls sell for like below 150m when I came back from the break, and nanoribbons look really cheap.

:puzzled:


Market forces are always puzzling when the person trying to understand them refuses to accept these forces work across many individuals, the sum total of everyones choice to farm wormholes is less valuable wh's. CCP can't fix capsuleer greed. Not much has actually changed in wh space since the beginning, just the farming has become less profitable. Every community complains when their isk printer becomes less profitable. New Eden is full of potential isk making opportunities, If one enjoys wh style play, the reduced isk shouldn't bother you. The isk to be made in wormholes is still SUBSTANTIAL.

As for Jenn Asides comments about drifters. I love Drifters, moar crazy hard content pls.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-09-10 01:28:46 UTC
Esrevid Nekkeg wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Nanoribbons drop mainly from battleship wrecks when salvaged, you only start to get significant battleship spawns in c4 space and above. C4 anomalies are a pain in the ass to run so it used to be down to the people running c5/6 space to produce the bulk of these.
We own, among other things, a tower in a C1. Occasionally (read: when a corp member feels like it/gets bored) running anoms in that C1 gets the corporation enough Nanoribbons to pay for the tower fuel and then some.

In other words, Nanoribbons drop everywhere in W-space. In abundance.

Of course one can argue that that might be one of the perceived problems of W-space. Then again, we enjoy our self dabbling on the poor and easy side of W-space..Smile

And ultimately that is the core, enjoyment in playing a game.


Erm, depending on size of tower, lets assume large non faction, you're boasting about being able to make roughly 200m a week? And not sure if you're talking about nanoribbons or all the loot you get. Seems a bit strange to only pay for fuel with one part of the loot.

Enjoyment for me personally comes from the content we used to have, big t3 brawls with other pvp entities including capital support. Catching a few dreads running sites. Going out in force into null (can still do this and it's pretty much all we have now).

And at the comments about wormholes being overfarmed being the problem: majority of the ISK had always been from blue loot, even back in the day where nanoribbons hovered around 5 mil. So really it's nothing to do with over farming as blue loot has no effect on the market at all apart from inflating prices which would cause the exact opposite effect that we see these days: things should be more expensive not less.

And what counts as substantial to you? The best isk you can make currently is to multibox rattlesnakes in c5 anomalies and not even bother killing the drifter if you have less than 6 of them.

Isn't it sad that to make the most efficient isk that you ignore the new features completely? And if you're not multiboxing and sharing site income, it drops very quickly to below incursion values, which is pretty sad imo. I liked wormholes because it provided an alternative to incursions and the increased risk made it fun at the same time

And you're missing the big picture with all of this: if everyone is just farming in rattlesnakes there's no incentive to try and catch people ratting, they are so low risk with mjds it's unreal. You reduce what people are willing to risk, you reduce the amount of people hunting and wh space just turns into farmer paradise instead of the ruthless killing fields that so many people fell in love with years ago
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#25 - 2016-09-10 02:25:46 UTC
Celesete, thanks for the explanation, but it's a bit silly to say I'm 'refusing to accept' some of the market mechanics. :p

I (or anyone else who asks some questions about market) may just be stupid or don't have some insight or missed some info or whatever, it doesn't mean that one should assume such a person who find something difficult to understand something is 'refusing to accept' something.

When onr asserts something and argues against facts and evidences and logic you could accuse him for refusing to accept. But when one asks about something with genuine curiosity and willingness to listen it's a bit unfair accusation IMHO.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#26 - 2016-09-10 05:06:49 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
[quote=Zanar Skwigelf]

A few solutions that could be implemented:

1. 2600+ systems are too much. Start culling some duplicates. Imo there shouldn't be more than 10 of a specific combo of a wormhole class + effect.

You seemed sane until this point
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-09-10 09:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Rain6637 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
[quote=Zanar Skwigelf]

A few solutions that could be implemented:

1. 2600+ systems are too much. Start culling some duplicates. Imo there shouldn't be more than 10 of a specific combo of a wormhole class + effect.

You seemed sane until this point


6 classes 7 effects

13 total variables
78 combinations of 13 variables

Minus the 13 invalid combos like c1 with a c1 effect we get 65 possible combinations.

Multiplied by 10 that makes 650 systems. Add the shattered and frigate systems that's close to 800 which I think is more than enough

Add exceptions to wormholes with 2 statics so we have full coverage and that should send the number way over 1000.
Nalia White
Tencus
#28 - 2016-09-10 10:10:42 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
W-holes and a lot of other space are empty simply because EVE's PCU is back to 2006 player levels.




man i don't want to say it's true but for the first time playing this gem i fear that too many people are leaving without fresh blood joining... place where i camp in syndicate got to ghost levels... to the point even i don't log in anymore...

scary **** :/

i blame the new generations with their ****** mobile games... no interest anymore to invest time and effort in a hobby... sad times :(

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement

Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#29 - 2016-09-10 16:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
I don't have any input on WH mechanics or payouts but coming from a prospective of a high sec player who has recently come back is that there is a much smaller community of people in eve, it varies but most of the time it ranges from 12 to 17 thousand logged on, on weekends it goes up to 27,000+ but never like it was before I left.

I would say that lack of players (especially high sec), has taken its toll on prices for T-3 stuff, you can have all the content in the world but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less.

Now this being said CCP is trying to attract new players to the game but it faces a tough battle, the new games on the market, the main thing that some are complaining about 'FTP' is one of those things meant to attract fresh blood to the game and maybe attract returning vets (such as me), the new blood can play for free but if they start to sub then things will change in the markets as these folks will want new shiny ships, one thing is amazing is how many recruiters there are in 1.0 space advertising to noobs, when I started people used to tell you to "get lost noob" I would say that a falling population has eaten away at the risk vs rewards and this could only get better if eve will get new subs, your right about something tho, risk vs rewards, since prices are low Why would people risk going into them is they get stuff that isn't really paying out with the very real possibility of getting pod killed in 'W' space, it is way, way, way to easy to scan down others nowadays, implants, uber mods, bonuses on ships make it so simple for hunters to find prey that the prey has adapted, stay out of harms way, I will no longer use MTU as this just attracts trouble, it is too easy to scan people down making risk vs rewards tipped in the balance of the Hunter.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#30 - 2016-09-10 17:09:36 UTC
Nalia White wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
W-holes and a lot of other space are empty simply because EVE's PCU is back to 2006 player levels.




i blame the new generations with their ****** mobile games... no interest anymore to invest time and effort in a hobby... sad times :(


Doc blames CCP and their inability to deliver on their hype, and years of pants-on-head decisions by their "management". Soooo many missed opportunities.

It's come to the point that they are having to literally beg players to remain subscribed via free swag until their F2P experiment kicks in, so the PCU does not drop to 2003 levels.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
#31 - 2016-09-11 00:27:38 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
Celesete, thanks for the explanation, but it's a bit silly to say I'm 'refusing to accept' some of the market mechanics. :p

I (or anyone else who asks some questions about market) may just be stupid or don't have some insight or missed some info or whatever, it doesn't mean that one should assume such a person who find something difficult to understand something is 'refusing to accept' something.

When onr asserts something and argues against facts and evidences and logic you could accuse him for refusing to accept. But when one asks about something with genuine curiosity and willingness to listen it's a bit unfair accusation IMHO.



Don't take it so personally. It wasn't directed at you. It was phrased the way it was for the benefit of everyone who discounts the sum total of player market interactions as a reason for price drops. The problem is people point the finger at CCP, when usually it's the players behaviour themselves that causes markets to plateau. Any "fix" CCP applies will result in the same market results in a few months. The best thing for them to do is leave it and let wh's become abandoned, so that it can become lucrative again to farm them. Alternatively if they do add more content, make it harder, but eventually we will be back here again anyways.
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
#32 - 2016-09-11 00:31:59 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
I don't have any input on WH mechanics or payouts but coming from a prospective of a high sec player who has recently come back is that there is a much smaller community of people in eve, it varies but most of the time it ranges from 12 to 17 thousand logged on, on weekends it goes up to 27,000+ but never like it was before I left.

I would say that lack of players (especially high sec), has taken its toll on prices for T-3 stuff, you can have all the content in the world but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less.




Economics doesn't work this way, the proportion of ships being used and blown up and produced remains relative to the player base. Over production causes price drops. Supply is exceeding demand. Add another 20k players and just as many of those will farm wh's in proportion to the relative numbers farming them now, the price won't budge much at all.

"but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less."

You assume all the people stopped playing were only consumers, not producers too, it's not the case.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-09-11 01:40:30 UTC
Add another 20k and there will be more rattlesnakes, the mechanics need to change.

Also stop with the economic debate, it's not relevant since blue loot has always been the bulk of the isk, especially in higher class space.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#34 - 2016-09-11 02:33:16 UTC
Celeste, ok I get you now. As a general advice for those looking at market stuff what you say is correct and I do agree that people need to open up and see the broader picture. I guess I just took it wrong the first time. :)
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#35 - 2016-09-11 03:09:15 UTC
Celeste Coeval wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I don't have any input on WH mechanics or payouts but coming from a prospective of a high sec player who has recently come back is that there is a much smaller community of people in eve, it varies but most of the time it ranges from 12 to 17 thousand logged on, on weekends it goes up to 27,000+ but never like it was before I left.

I would say that lack of players (especially high sec), has taken its toll on prices for T-3 stuff, you can have all the content in the world but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less.




Economics doesn't work this way, the proportion of ships being used and blown up and produced remains relative to the player base. Over production causes price drops. Supply is exceeding demand. Add another 20k players and just as many of those will farm wh's in proportion to the relative numbers farming them now, the price won't budge much at all.

"but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less."

You assume all the people stopped playing were only consumers, not producers too, it's not the case.


I agree mostly, but for a healthy economy there needs to be a demand, strangely when I left eve years ago a DRAKE cost about 25 mil, fast forward few years and the same DRAKE is double the price....yet half the population.


when I was playing years ago ~45 to 50 thousand active logged people now is like 15 thousand on weekdays and 27+ thousand on weekends yet a DRAKE is ~55 mil, smaller population should mean less demand for DRAKES yet price have gone up?

And yet minerals are still about the same as they were when I left?

Believe me...I'm wondering how that worked.
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
#36 - 2016-09-11 03:21:44 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Celeste Coeval wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I don't have any input on WH mechanics or payouts but coming from a prospective of a high sec player who has recently come back is that there is a much smaller community of people in eve, it varies but most of the time it ranges from 12 to 17 thousand logged on, on weekends it goes up to 27,000+ but never like it was before I left.

I would say that lack of players (especially high sec), has taken its toll on prices for T-3 stuff, you can have all the content in the world but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less.




Economics doesn't work this way, the proportion of ships being used and blown up and produced remains relative to the player base. Over production causes price drops. Supply is exceeding demand. Add another 20k players and just as many of those will farm wh's in proportion to the relative numbers farming them now, the price won't budge much at all.

"but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less."

You assume all the people stopped playing were only consumers, not producers too, it's not the case.


I agree mostly, but for a healthy economy there needs to be a demand, strangely when I left eve years ago a DRAKE cost about 25 mil, fast forward few years and the same DRAKE is double the price....yet half the population.


when I was playing years ago ~45 to 50 thousand active logged people now is like 15 thousand on weekdays and 27+ thousand on weekends yet a DRAKE is ~55 mil, smaller population should mean less demand for DRAKES yet price have gone up?

And yet minerals are still about the same as they were when I left?

Believe me...I'm wondering how that worked.



CCP changes minerals required to build stuff every so often. Mineral prices might be higher because of CODE? PLEX prices? I could pick anything in the game since 2006 and say XYZ used to cost (insert number here) and there would be numerous reasons why. So a drake costs twice as much? Tengus cost peanuts and Bhaalgorns are over a 1/3rd of the price I remember when I started. It's a fluid economy with so many variables it's difficult to keep track. Also Jita speculation plays its role.

Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
#37 - 2016-09-11 03:23:13 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Add another 20k and there will be more rattlesnakes, the mechanics need to change.

Also stop with the economic debate, it's not relevant since blue loot has always been the bulk of the isk, especially in higher class space.



Blue loot isn't independant of the economic picture, you trade it in for isk, isk is spent on other things, the other things are part of the rest of the economy.....you started the economic debate, you just don't seem to realise it lol.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-09-11 05:14:31 UTC
Celeste Coeval wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Add another 20k and there will be more rattlesnakes, the mechanics need to change.

Also stop with the economic debate, it's not relevant since blue loot has always been the bulk of the isk, especially in higher class space.



Blue loot isn't independant of the economic picture, you trade it in for isk, isk is spent on other things, the other things are part of the rest of the economy.....you started the economic debate, you just don't seem to realise it lol.


Except I already stated what blue loot does to the economy: nothing except inflation since you're not interacting with another player when selling it.

Just looked through all the monthly economy reports as well, the commodity market is the lowest, at 10 trillion ISK, it's been since the reports have been started this February.

The commodity market is mainly blue loot as overseers effects are pretty minor and things like ESS tokens and clone soldier tags are even less abundant.

So from 18 trillion ISK in February dropping to 10 that's a MASSIVE red flag on the state of wormhole affairs
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2016-09-11 06:42:39 UTC
With all these talks about ISK/hour and 'non-profitable' WHs i want to ask wormholers: what do you need all these ISK for? Looking at occasional killmails from WH it's often pretty expensive ships like T3s, etc... And with pimped modules. Do you really must use it there?

Outside of some elitist low-sec alliances it looks like the whole Eve is happy with cheaper doctrines. Some even use t1-fitted cheap-as-chips ships Lol
Yes, Yes, blobs you say. But these blobs do against other blobs. But recently WHers start to talk about fleets of 30-50 pilots already. So yeah, you are not too far from 'blobs' already.

Couldn't it be that thing which holds you down? Need to use (and lose) expensive stuff?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#40 - 2016-09-11 06:46:22 UTC
While WH is a special place, I suppose the same economy aplies at the end of the day. If bounty claim from a particular space dropped by half, it sounfs reasonable to ask whether that space is in 'healthy' state.

But turning blue loot value to other resources in WH, that could be an issue too, just as buffing mining yield will affect the mineral prices eventually, negating the buff.

Ultimately demand needs to be increased correspondingly to make the eve economy healthy. But trade volumes have gone down significantly across all sorts of things, and I see overall less demand for stuff, whether it's something from WH or from elsewhere.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

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