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Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

First post
Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#241 - 2016-09-10 01:29:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
When EVE was harsher, more dangerous, more rewarding for 'griefers' (who used to get paid insurance to gank) and 'campers' (no safeties to tell people not to jump into low sec) and can flippers (no safeties to prevent inadvertent agro) the game grew. IMO it was because the game treated people like adults, it almost literally said "here is a space ship, **** you".
But then that was also earlier in the game where bigger changes were made to the game and the game was on a natural growth trajectory. I always love how you make this wild assumption that minor changes to highsec aggression mechanics shaped the entire game's growth.

Jenn aSide wrote:
And damn near as soon as CCP started down the road to monetization and mainstreaming and "lowering the barriers to entry" and making the game "easy to learn, hard to master", it started to fall off. Whereas EVE stood when other MMOs except WoW and a few others had lifespan measured in months, now it's mainly like other MMOs, just with space ships.
They started on that because they know that growth would not continue indefinitely so they wanted to create broader income streams. I get that you hate change, but it has to happen or the game would very much be dead.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Instead of developing in the direction of the games strengths (a game for pirates made by actually goddamn Vikings, a game where the brave industrialist that isn't afraid of risk can make money selling guns to both sides of a war he himself started, a game that doesn't care for your delicate modern weaknesses and propensity to take offense easily), CCP decided that the way forward was to try to lure in the latte sipping types of people who know what the word "microagression" means...
Well that's probably because they realised if the only people they catered to had the sole goal of destroying opponents gameplay to the point that they quit, they'd find it hard to grow their playerbase.

I find it funny though that you demand everyone accept the real EVE, yet when CCP themselves choose to make changes you can't handle it. Understand that EVE is what CCP decides it is, and if you don't like it you should simply move on.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2016-09-10 02:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
He sounded either British or Indian, which means buoyant and pragmatic to the point of SpongeBob.

Indian, yes perhaps...but British? Buoyant? Smile





When they opened that Millenium Bridge in London it had some wobble to it, unexpectedly, the crowds began to walk in time with the wobble and magnify it until it really looked like the thing might bust.
British people's temperament is actually crazy and humorous, there was no panic or sensible moving away as you would expect from more tropical or alpine environments.
Harder to generalize about Indians, being over a billion people, but there is a cultural pressure to be happy that renders them useless in some settings, awesome in others. A hole dug in a road in India will have one guy digging, a supervisor, two guys talking about how to better dig the hole and a passer-by offering comments to those two.
Temperament controls how you act under pressure more than anything, training can affect it superficially, but the core is hard to change after adolescence.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#243 - 2016-09-10 03:10:16 UTC
Think of it as 'desire fulfilment', one way or other. This does not necessarily equates to your 'identity' or 'true self', because that is a very complex/fluid thing (my theory on identity has been that identity is an 'interface'/tool, not a 'quality/values').

Think of what you did alone in your room in complete privacy with unlimited varieties of w*nk materials to choose from (Internet is wonderful). What did you choose to watch and get off?

This may not say who you are in RL settings, but it does say something about your desires, explicit or implicit, openly aware or repressed, these are your desires.

Having said that, I don't have ethical prejudice on what is ok to be desired and what is not ok.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#244 - 2016-09-10 03:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Prejudice against other players is simply a demonstration of low IQ.

If someone shoots you and you rage at them, it may simply be that you are dumb.

Concept related to this study:

http://www.livescience.com/18132-intelligence-social-conservatism-racism.html

People who rage can't help it. They just lack the intelligence to not rage.

We should pity them.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#245 - 2016-09-10 03:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Couldn't bear to even start to read all 13 pages of this. Pretty simple: If you enjoy the challenge of trying to shoot ships and survive, you're playing a game. If you enjoy mentally dueling another player, corp or alliance, knowing they're trying to do the same to you, you're playing a game.

If you're enjoying attacking players themselves, and not their ships, you're not playing a game. If you're enjoying messing with people's heads, and they're not also working to mess with yours too-- you're not playing a game. That's when the way you play the game reflects on you in real life. One's not going after game objects or game opponents, one's going after random encountered stranger people. Big, big difference.
Dravar
Doomheim
#246 - 2016-09-10 04:16:40 UTC
That is because eve online allows people to be unrestricted versions of themselves. They are who they would be, without the social pressure and laws that society forces you to follow.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#247 - 2016-09-10 04:24:42 UTC
Dravar wrote:
That is because eve online allows people to be unrestricted versions of themselves. They are who they would be, without the social pressure and laws that society forces you to follow.

Who are you referring to here though?

The ganker who shoots someone who is going about their business in highsec? or

the guy who gets ganked and then communicates back that the ganker is an ********, should get cancer, should have their family raped, etc.?

Who's the one displaying behaviour that should reflect on them irl?

This thread is about the case of the ganker/wardeccer/aggressor in non-consensual pvp being an arse IRL because they play within the rules of the game; but generally we are all supposed to be PC about the feelings of others when they spew hate and rage at people just for shooting them

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#248 - 2016-09-10 04:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP decided that the way forward was to try to lure in the latte sipping types of people who know what the word "microagression" means...
I resemble that remark, I like my lattes.

Interestingly enough the term micro-aggression is often associated with the term victim mentality.

Quote:
Maybe after this alpha clone stuff fails, maybe there will be a change of direction at CCP. Maybe they will get back to understanding that gamers exist that don't need help or hand holding, we just need a ship...and **** everything else.
Not going to happen, they have to keep their investors happy. Investors want a rturn on their investment and until CCP start making a profit from their other products that return is going to come out of Eve.

Hence the recent drive to increase the playerbase and potential income by shitting all over Eve making their existing niche game more mainstream.


I understand thats what they think. And i understand irrational stake holder preasure. Thing is they are wrong.

Its like how coca cola, bowing to pressure from share holders, torpedoed themsellves with new coke. They felt like they had to do something. Desperation due to falling market share. But they tried to make something they thought youngfer fopks would like. They didnt, and new coke also ticked off established coke drinkers.

Imo ccp is replicating that kind of think, thinking that making the game "sweeter" will attract more new folks. It wont, because the minor things they change arent enough to overcome the things people dont likeabout eve, like non consen8sual pvp, the games flight control scheme, its lack of direction and its simplistic ship damage model and pve. Traditonal mmos work because they appeal to that kind of gamer, eve cant be that kind of game without a major bottom up rewrite.

Stayihg the same isnt the right move, but ccp chose the exact opposite path than trhey shoule have. We used to be able to take pride in being able to survive in this game against near genious griefer types. Now the game does that for us in the form of safeties and pop ups. Alienating those of us who like a challenge while still not being enoughnto entice the masses into eve. Its why i dont even kep a mision running toon in high sec anymore, half the fun was frustrating gankers and baiters. At least null still fels somewhat like eve.

Edit, excuse the typos, posting from phone.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#249 - 2016-09-10 07:53:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
When EVE was harsher, more dangerous, more rewarding for 'griefers' (who used to get paid insurance to gank) and 'campers' (no safeties to tell people not to jump into low sec) and can flippers (no safeties to prevent inadvertent agro) the game grew. IMO it was because the game treated people like adults, it almost literally said "here is a space ship, **** you".
But then that was also earlier in the game where bigger changes were made to the game and the game was on a natural growth trajectory. I always love how you make this wild assumption that minor changes to highsec aggression mechanics shaped the entire game's growth.

Jenn aSide wrote:
And damn near as soon as CCP started down the road to monetization and mainstreaming and "lowering the barriers to entry" and making the game "easy to learn, hard to master", it started to fall off. Whereas EVE stood when other MMOs except WoW and a few others had lifespan measured in months, now it's mainly like other MMOs, just with space ships.
They started on that because they know that growth would not continue indefinitely so they wanted to create broader income streams. I get that you hate change, but it has to happen or the game would very much be dead.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Instead of developing in the direction of the games strengths (a game for pirates made by actually goddamn Vikings, a game where the brave industrialist that isn't afraid of risk can make money selling guns to both sides of a war he himself started, a game that doesn't care for your delicate modern weaknesses and propensity to take offense easily), CCP decided that the way forward was to try to lure in the latte sipping types of people who know what the word "microagression" means...
Well that's probably because they realised if the only people they catered to had the sole goal of destroying opponents gameplay to the point that they quit, they'd find it hard to grow their playerbase.

I find it funny though that you demand everyone accept the real EVE, yet when CCP themselves choose to make changes you can't handle it. Understand that EVE is what CCP decides it is, and if you don't like it you should simply move on.


Well said.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#250 - 2016-09-10 07:56:25 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

And you continually prove those assumptions correct.


Post with your main Ima Wreckyou oh you do, its is rather amusing to see you switching toons to post in the same thread, but I guess you are role playing LolEvilTwisted

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#251 - 2016-09-10 08:13:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

And you continually prove those assumptions correct.


Post with your main Ima Wreckyou oh you do, its is rather amusing to see you switching toons to post in the same thread, but I guess you are role playing LolEvilTwisted

You're an idiot.

I'm not a ganker. Therefore the rest is self evident.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#252 - 2016-09-10 08:17:25 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

And you continually prove those assumptions correct.


Post with your main Ima Wreckyou oh you do, its is rather amusing to see you switching toons to post in the same thread, but I guess you are role playing LolEvilTwisted

You're an idiot.

I'm not a ganker. Therefore the rest is self evident.


I am surprised you have the time to gank with all the posting you do, Shae is not a ganker toon obviously...

Good role playing...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#253 - 2016-09-10 08:28:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Dracvlad wrote:
I am surprised you have the time to gank with all the posting you do, Shae is not a ganker toon obviously...

Good role playing...

Maybe you just didn't understand. That's not surprising by any stretch, but ho hum.

I am not Ima's alt, nor the alt of any other ganker. I don't gank.

If you have any evidence to the contrary, then post it.

Nor am I roleplaying, so I'll just refer you to this post by Kergit:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6631358#post6631358

That second paragraph is relevant to continuing this stupidity.

On the other hand, if time spent in the forum is an indication of in game ability, then your forum activity explains a lot about the incompetence of antigankers.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2016-09-10 08:44:35 UTC
F A T A L I T Y .



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#255 - 2016-09-10 08:52:42 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I am surprised you have the time to gank with all the posting you do, Shae is not a ganker toon obviously...

Good role playing...

Maybe you just didn't understand. That's not surprising by any stretch, but ho hum.

I am not Ima's alt, nor the alt of any other ganker. I don't gank.

If you have any evidence to the contrary, then post it.

Nor am I roleplaying, so I'll just refer you to this post by Kergit:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6631358#post6631358

That second paragraph is relevant to continuing this stupidity.

On the other hand, if time spent in the forum is an indication of in game ability, then your forum activity explains a lot about the incompetence of antigankers.


OK Ima Wreckyou, whatever you say...

I don't log in at all, this account ends 6th October..., but I will be back with my alpha account Big smile to post that is, logging in no...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#256 - 2016-09-10 08:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Actually, I'm a Dracvlad alt.

Part of my Dissociative Personality Disorder.*

\o/ I'm out of the closet. Oh yeah, there's that too.






* This is not an attempt at impersonation. Please do not ask me for the tears or lack of logic that Drac displays here. There's only so much I can own up to on this personality.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#257 - 2016-09-10 09:05:36 UTC
Giaus Felix wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:
Stop trying to twist what I said..
I didn't, nor did I try to.

Quote:
I'm on about a specific type of play in a specific area of space.
A specific type of play that is within the rules of the game Roll

Quote:
It's not just about losing ships either, it's more about HOW they were lost. In null where I am we can just shoot if anything like that was ever attempted. Get bumped in HS and you can't do a damn thing because if you shoot you get concorded, they are literally helpless unless they sub another 5 accounts to just do escort duties, maybe that's CCP's plan.
While true that you can't shoot bumpers without Concord intervention, you can certainly shoot 99% of the gankers, often before they fire a shot.

BTW if you're daft enough to get caught and bumped you need precisely 1 friend or alt to get out of it; you'll need to be quick though, once the hurt squad turns up it's invariably too late to do anything.

Quote:
So yeah, keep attacking helpless ships and you'll more than likely get more abuse...tough. You want that game style, you suffer the consequences as well.
So what you're saying is that the various vitriol that gets spewed forth, which often includes wishing ill on someone and their family in real life, is fully justified because somebody made your internet spaceship pixels explode?



Within the rules, really?

Lets take bumping..You say it's within the rules of the game, I'll bet anything that this wasn't even thought of as a part of the game even a few years back.

CCP agree with it sooo much that they've already announced changes to counter it, changes that haven't been implemented yet probably due to players instantly publishing a workaround to just carry on regardless.

Bonus room degradation tactics, you seriously think that was an intended part of the game design?

I'll say it again as you obviously didn't get it the first time around...

Space pixels and real life are very much intertwined, those pixels have been built/bought by a REAL person, it's a REAL person behind them, it's a REAL person you just pissed off by these bully boy tactics. Their items and such don't respawn as in every other game, when they are gone, they are gone and have to be built or bought all over again. In some cases they have literally lost everything they own in game.

It's like walking home from the pub and getting mugged by half a dozen youths, you lose your phone, wallet, keys, pride etc. Are you going to go away and shout good fight, what did I do wrong? Why players think that the victim should act this way is way beyond me. In my case I know exactly what the gf would stand for.

Or, as people are saying, should I never go to the pub alone, I should always be with a mate?

It's like the guy bragging about hunting and killing 100 mtu's simply for tears and the reaction, there's something seriously wrong in his head, and that's no different from players actively hunting defenceless barges and freighters.

So yes, they are perfectly entitled to rage after getting bullied off the field. If it's as bad as you say, pass it to CCP, or stop pissing people off, just don't come on here whining about getting abuse from them. You caused it.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#258 - 2016-09-10 09:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Ginger Naari wrote:
Within the rules, really?

Lets take bumping..You say it's within the rules of the game, I'll bet anything that this wasn't even thought of as a part of the game even a few years back.

Go knock yourself out reading CCP's previous response on the issue of Bumping (now old view):

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=199310&find=unread

Or the official CCP list of known and declared exploits, particularly the 5th Common Misconceptions:

https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/204873262-Known-Declared-Exploits

Or just go in game and see all the bumping that occurs on undocks, or gates, on in lowsec and nullsec pvp; both intentional and unintentional.

Bumping has occured since the game started. It's a mechanic that's been here since the very beginning and the changes proposed to bumping won't remove it from the game.

Giner Naari wrote:
It's like walking home from the pub and getting mugged by half a dozen youths, you lose your phone, wallet, keys, pride etc. Are you going to go away and shout good fight, what did I do wrong? Why players think that the victim should act this way is way beyond me. In my case I know exactly what the gf would stand for.

No, it's literally IRL, sitting at a computer in perfect safety, playing a video game.

There is no comparison to real life battery and theft as there is no RL victim. There are only in game victims in the form of completely fictional characters with imaginary assets.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#259 - 2016-09-10 09:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Actually, I'm a Dracvlad alt.

Part of my Dissociative Personality Disorder.*

\o/ I'm out of the closet. Oh yeah, there's that too.

* This is not an attempt at impersonation. Please do not ask me for the tears or lack of logic that Drac displays here. There's only so much I can own up to on this personality.


No you are not an alt of mine, silly thing to say, also the out of the closet comment is a tad homophobic too, are you losing it a bit?

From the 6th October all my accounts will be de-subbed and all were paid for with RL cash. As CCP seems to ignore the issues around certain mechanics I decided to not put my money where my mouth is and will only return once CCP get their heads out of their rear end.

So for me its doing something that ends no consequence bumping and something to sort out the DST loot scooping exploit which again avoids consequences.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#260 - 2016-09-10 09:29:27 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Bumping has occured since the game started. It's a mechanic that's been here since the very beginning and the changes proposed to bumping won't remove it from the game.
CCP still changed it though, didn't they? So obviously from their point of view they saw it as an unbalanced mechanic that needed fixing. That's the problem with claiming everything is alright because "it's withing the rules of the game", the rules are not set in stone, so when someone says "I don;t like ganking I think it's too easy" and you simply say "it's within the rules of the game" that's not a counter, it's just a passing statement. Just like how at the moment CCP don't take issue with people purposely winding up other player so they can blog their "tears", it doesn't mean that will remain the case forever.

Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
No, it's literally IRL, sitting at a computer in perfect safety, playing a video game.

There is no comparison to real life battery and theft as there is no RL victim. There are only in game victims in the form of completely fictional characters with imaginary assets.
Those fictional assets still take real life time to acquire. If I was several hours into a game that had no autosave and you came in and unplugged my computer, would you expect to me to simply say "good fight"? While it's not really comparable to real life crime, yo're taking one heck of a leap to go from that to suggesting people have no reason to be saddened by their loss of in-game assets. In fact if they mean absolutely zero to you, contract them over to me and you can just go get more from scratch, yeah?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.