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Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

First post
Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#221 - 2016-09-09 20:02:15 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Jenn a'Snide was calling them heros, one of them goes out on missing people searches, and all of them were in the military or emergency services or something like that . It must be true Jenn a'Snide said it... Lol



LInk the post please. I've read two of her posts and while she listed some anecdotal evidence of what some of the "bad guys in EVE" did in RL I don't see claims that gankers are heroes.


Its is in this thread...


And I am seeing some of you gankers apply this comparisons to RL in terms of AG players which you refuse for yourself, please be consistent otherwise people will take you for hypocrites. Shocked


Okay, I don't see it. I saw 2 posts by Jenn and in neither I saw her saying something like gankers or scammers being heroes for being gankers or scammers. So...I'll assume, as usual, you got nothing.


You assume all the time.... Roll

And you continually prove those assumptions correct.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#222 - 2016-09-09 20:02:38 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:


Stop trying to twist what I said..

I'm on about a specific type of play in a specific area of space.

It's not just about losing ships either, it's more about HOW they were lost. In null where I am we can just shoot if anything like that was ever attempted. Get bumped in HS and you can't do a damn thing because if you shoot you get concorded, they are literally helpless unless they sub another 5 accounts to just do escort duties, maybe that's CCP's plan.

So yeah, keep attacking helpless ships and you'll more than likely get more abuse...tough. You want that game style, you suffer the consequences as well.


Or get a friend to scout for you.

Or pay me and a friend and we'll come gank the bumping mach. I'd do it for cost. Of course, we'd both have to be logged in at the same time.

And again, don't be imprudent.

This is a game where imprudence gets you punished.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#223 - 2016-09-09 20:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Yeah but it's also a game where actively seeking to grief other players isn't punished, which is possibly why it's falling in the toilet so much that on top of allowing people to buy skills they're going free to play to boost the numbers.

I mean let's face it, everyone in and out of EVE with any idea about MMOs knows that EVE is full of trolls and griefers that other games reject.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#224 - 2016-09-09 20:13:16 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yeah but it's also a game where actively seeking to grief other players isn't punished, which is possibly why it's falling in the toilet so much that on top of allowing people to buy skills they're going free to play to boost the numbers.


No. "Griefing" like that has always been part of the game. To argue that is why subs are suddenly falling doesn't explain why they were rising.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#225 - 2016-09-09 20:14:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:



Stop trying to twist what I said..

I'm on about a specific type of play in a specific area of space.

It's not just about losing ships either, it's more about HOW they were lost. In null where I am we can just shoot if anything like that was ever attempted. Get bumped in HS and you can't do a damn thing because if you shoot you get concorded, they are literally helpless unless they sub another 5 accounts to just do escort duties, maybe that's CCP's plan.

So yeah, keep attacking helpless ships and you'll more than likely get more abuse...tough. You want that game style, you suffer the consequences as well.


Plenty of room in 0.0 if hi-sec doesn't suit you.


I agree, even in Provi you can go through systems with only a couple of pilots about.
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#226 - 2016-09-09 20:16:14 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:

I do agree with Eternus8lux8lucis in that Eve Online allows us to see how we really are if societal laws in the real world didn't exist today.


Careful, there are examples where there is no "law" like we have today, but yet things were not Mad Max: Fury Road.

Ironically, one such place was...Iceland.

And we see this in game. Players come together and work cooperatively and do not run around shooting anything and everything. NS corporations, alliances and coalitions are examples of this. There is no "Law" like we have now in the game, it is private law--i.e. it is a set of social norms--do not shoot fellow corp mates. Do not shoot alliance mates. Do not shoot members of your coalition. To the extent that it does happen there are even avenues to resolve these problems.

This is an example of spontaneous order.


Very true.

Which is why I mentioned at the end of my post "Humans, by their very nature, crave for law and order."

There is just no escaping it. Society will continue making new laws in the absence of old laws when you have enough people working together.
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#227 - 2016-09-09 20:35:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yeah but it's also a game where actively seeking to grief other players isn't punished, which is possibly why it's falling in the toilet so much that on top of allowing people to buy skills they're going free to play to boost the numbers.

I mean let's face it, everyone in and out of EVE with any idea about MMOs knows that EVE is full of trolls and griefers that other games reject.


You're making it seem as if griefing (ie: suicide ganking, scamming, corporate theft, etc.) is what caused Eve Online to suffer. If that was the case, Eve Online should have been dead back in 2003. But nope, here we are 13 years later standing.

The reason why Eve Online has been slow on growth or just overall stagnated for the past few years could be anything else besides griefing. Keep in mind that new players seem to join every time there is news of a major fleet battle that impacted the economy and power blocs. Ever notice a sudden uptick in new players almost immediately after the battle of B-R5RB or the battle of Asakai or maybe even the downfall of The Imperium? Especially after these battles were reported in major news outlets like Forbes.com.

Unfortunately even then, as one of the CCP Devs once mentioned during Fanfest 2016, the vast majority of new players trying out Eve Online don't stick around for more than a few hours before quiting and moving on the next game.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#228 - 2016-09-09 21:19:13 UTC
I guess its that time again to have this discussion. Eve is designed to be a place where someone can let their "asshat" fly. Fine, I get that it was a purposeful part of the core of this game. So folks can do as morally bankrupt a thing they can pull off. Great, but it all starts with everyone deciding how to act.

I do not begrudge anyone that chooses PvP or even market shenanigans as part of the style they choose. In fact I am impressed when I see folks use those mechanics to achieve some goal. I believe that really is the point of the sandbox, So blow someone up to either get a tribute paid or deny them some resources. Good for you.

What I don't get (and I see it in Eve) is someone just screwing with someone for the "tears". If you take joy just in the act of kicking someone's sand castle down just for the sake of it you likely have some sort of deep seated issue in RL. Just because Eve lets you be a jerk shouldn't mean you should enjoy it. I ran a number of POSs for years that made me a lot of isks on some moons I really couldn't defend. And sure enough after some time folks came by and "sploded" my isk printers. I couldn't complain. In the last case I even gave my last stock pile of fuel to the folks that did it. "Well played" I thought. I've even lost things over "grudges", for example the old BRUCE days produced some violence in space as well of a dust up with the goons over a clear misunderstanding that still has my alliance with a record bounty. I still wear that as a badge of honor! Lol So space is dangerous, I get that. It also means I can't fault folks that have found obvious choke points for trade that produce a steady stream of targets. Again, that is totally keeping with the true spirit of Eve. In fact in a lot of these cases if Eve was just a PvE game a good game designer would put in those same elements. So the fact humans are killing you instead of some in game AI thing is fine with me. Probably makes it an even better experience.

But here is where I think it all falls apart. The true "for the tears" ganker that refuses to admit that kicking over someone space sand castle is no different that real world bullying. I believe that a person who really does it just for the joy of making someone else sad is not a mentally healthy person. That if they really thought they could get away with it in RL they would do it there just the same. Its the kind of person that thinks breaking off the mirror on someone's car is "funny". I sometime have taunted folks that are "in it for the tears" to consider R/L crime. They likely could get away with most and think of the even greater rush! P

In the end we only have one thing in our lives of value. A single thing you have a finite amount of and that everything else comes from. Time. When someone labors in a virtual world to create something that persists then the result of those efforts has value. So when someone comes along to blow it up just because they want to get my "tears" it is no different that taking something else away from me in RL that cost me the same amount of time to acquire. I've simplified the argument but I think most folks can see the point I'm trying to make. There is no healthy way to explain away someone choosing to harm another person, even in a virtual world just because they take pleasure in inflicting that harm. Doing that is to demonstrate that you are a sociopath. How anyone that doesn't have some aspect of that they hide in real life could find "role playing" a virtual sociopath enjoyable eludes me.

So players that inflict their PvP on other players for a purpose are part of Eve. Would I prefer a "safe" place from other players in Eve, part of me says "YES"! But lets unwrap that a bit. I think I am going on 12 years in the game and continue to play so that desire for safety hasn't driven me out. I don't see how you could play Eve for long and not realize that the fundamental goal of Eve is to shoot strangers in the face and take their stuff. Sure, the mechanics for accomplishing that goal can be pretty complicated and even involve creating large groups of players to focus on achieving that goal. But in the end you should not be in Eve if you don't see that as the fundamental mechanic. But don't forget the last part "take their stuff". However some folks in Eve seem to confuse that as a justification for just using Eve as a place for them to expose their inner sociopath, Don't expect me to support those folks and the sad immoral game play they exhibit.

If you got blown up ask yourself why? Was it really some random sociopath doing it for the tears? Chances are no. I expect whoever blew you up has some sort of "reason" that in the end can be justified, Even that evil troll under the bridge has a role to play which is to deny use of the bridge to folks that the troll doesn't like. But if you really are blowing folks up and kicking over space sandcastles because you like the "tears" you might want spend some time asking yourself how someone's virtual pain gives you pleasure. I am not sure it is healthy.

In writing this I realize my own view has evolved a bit. Eve really is a vast simulation of a fictional universe where you are going to find all manner of folk. Some are just flat out sociopaths, just like RL. Just in Eve there really aren't any consequences to being one of those sociopaths. But you have to ask yourself how anyone that doesn't have some sort of character flaw could sustain and enjoy that behavior as recreation.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#229 - 2016-09-09 21:32:54 UTC
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:


You're making it seem as if griefing (ie: suicide ganking, scamming, corporate theft, etc.) is what caused Eve Online to suffer. If that was the case, Eve Online should have been dead back in 2003. But nope, here we are 13 years later standing.


This here is what is called an 'inconvenient truth'. A truth that the people who hate how other people play can't acknowledge.

When EVE was harsher, more dangerous, more rewarding for 'griefers' (who used to get paid insurance to gank) and 'campers' (no safeties to tell people not to jump into low sec) and can flippers (no safeties to prevent inadvertent agro) the game grew. IMO it was because the game treated people like adults, it almost literally said "here is a space ship, **** you".

And damn near as soon as CCP started down the road to monetization and mainstreaming and "lowering the barriers to entry" and making the game "easy to learn, hard to master", it started to fall off. Whereas EVE stood when other MMOs except WoW and a few others had lifespan measured in months, now it's mainly like other MMOs, just with space ships.

Instead of developing in the direction of the games strengths (a game for pirates made by actually goddamn Vikings, a game where the brave industrialist that isn't afraid of risk can make money selling guns to both sides of a war he himself started, a game that doesn't care for your delicate modern weaknesses and propensity to take offense easily), CCP decided that the way forward was to try to lure in the latte sipping types of people who know what the word "microagression" means...

Maybe after this alpha clone stuff fails, maybe there will be a change of direction at CCP. Maybe they will get back to understanding that gamers exist that don't need help or hand holding, we just need a ship...and **** everything else.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#230 - 2016-09-09 21:37:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:


You're making it seem as if griefing (ie: suicide ganking, scamming, corporate theft, etc.) is what caused Eve Online to suffer. If that was the case, Eve Online should have been dead back in 2003. But nope, here we are 13 years later standing.


This here is what is called an 'inconvenient truth'. A truth that the people who hate how other people play can't acknowledge.

When EVE was harsher, more dangerous, more rewarding for 'griefers' (who used to get paid insurance to gank) and 'campers' (no safeties to tell people not to jump into low sec) and can flippers (no safeties to prevent inadvertent agro) the game grew. IMO it was because the game treated people like adults, it almost literally said "here is a space ship, **** you".

And damn near as soon as CCP started down the road to monetization and mainstreaming and "lowering the barriers to entry" and making the game "easy to learn, hard to master", it started to fall off. Whereas EVE stood when other MMOs except WoW and a few others had lifespan measured in months, now it's mainly like other MMOs, just with space ships.

Instead of developing in the direction of the games strengths (a game for pirates made by actually goddamn Vikings, a game where the brave industrialist that isn't afraid of risk can make money selling guns to both sides of a war he himself started, a game that doesn't care for your delicate modern weaknesses and propensity to take offense easily), CCP decided that the way forward was to try to lure in the latte sipping types of people who know what the word "microagression" means...

Maybe after this alpha clone stuff fails, maybe there will be a change of direction at CCP. Maybe they will get back to understanding that gamers exist that don't need help or hand holding, we just need a ship...and **** everything else.


OMG, please take your trigger words and leave my safe space.

And can somebody get me a box of Kleenex?!?!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#231 - 2016-09-09 21:46:37 UTC
We all know those people who say we are bad peope in RL don't really mean it. It is just an excuse for them to comfort themself because they lost some stuff to those people or ar just jealous because those "bad people" are so good at the game.

We all know it and deep down you know it too: You are just mad and you should really calm down, get a mining permit and then learn how to play this game.
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#232 - 2016-09-09 21:55:40 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
We all know those people who say we are bad peope in RL don't really mean it. It is just an excuse for them to comfort themself because they lost some stuff to those people or ar just jealous because those "bad people" are so good at the game.

We all know it and deep down you know it too: You are just mad and you should really calm down, get a mining permit and then learn how to play this game.



You could always come down to Misaba and sell me one Lol
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#233 - 2016-09-09 22:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Ginger Naari wrote:
Stop trying to twist what I said..
I didn't, nor did I try to.

Quote:
I'm on about a specific type of play in a specific area of space.
A specific type of play that is within the rules of the game Roll

Quote:
It's not just about losing ships either, it's more about HOW they were lost. In null where I am we can just shoot if anything like that was ever attempted. Get bumped in HS and you can't do a damn thing because if you shoot you get concorded, they are literally helpless unless they sub another 5 accounts to just do escort duties, maybe that's CCP's plan.
While true that you can't shoot bumpers without Concord intervention, you can certainly shoot 99% of the gankers, often before they fire a shot.

BTW if you're daft enough to get caught and bumped you need precisely 1 friend or alt to get out of it; you'll need to be quick though, once the hurt squad turns up it's invariably too late to do anything.

Quote:
So yeah, keep attacking helpless ships and you'll more than likely get more abuse...tough. You want that game style, you suffer the consequences as well.
So what you're saying is that the various vitriol that gets spewed forth, which often includes wishing ill on someone and their family in real life, is fully justified because somebody made your internet spaceship pixels explode?

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.

Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#234 - 2016-09-09 22:30:07 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:


You're making it seem as if griefing (ie: suicide ganking, scamming, corporate theft, etc.) is what caused Eve Online to suffer. If that was the case, Eve Online should have been dead back in 2003. But nope, here we are 13 years later standing.


This here is what is called an 'inconvenient truth'. A truth that the people who hate how other people play can't acknowledge.

When EVE was harsher, more dangerous, more rewarding for 'griefers' (who used to get paid insurance to gank) and 'campers' (no safeties to tell people not to jump into low sec) and can flippers (no safeties to prevent inadvertent agro) the game grew. IMO it was because the game treated people like adults, it almost literally said "here is a space ship, **** you".

And damn near as soon as CCP started down the road to monetization and mainstreaming and "lowering the barriers to entry" and making the game "easy to learn, hard to master", it started to fall off. Whereas EVE stood when other MMOs except WoW and a few others had lifespan measured in months, now it's mainly like other MMOs, just with space ships.

Instead of developing in the direction of the games strengths (a game for pirates made by actually goddamn Vikings, a game where the brave industrialist that isn't afraid of risk can make money selling guns to both sides of a war he himself started, a game that doesn't care for your delicate modern weaknesses and propensity to take offense easily), CCP decided that the way forward was to try to lure in the latte sipping types of people who know what the word "microagression" means...

Maybe after this alpha clone stuff fails, maybe there will be a change of direction at CCP. Maybe they will get back to understanding that gamers exist that don't need help or hand holding, we just need a ship...and **** everything else.


OMG, please take your trigger words and leave my safe space.

And can somebody get me a box of Kleenex?!?!


You're making a Hugh Mungus deal out of this.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#235 - 2016-09-09 22:30:40 UTC
In total I think I have 52 characters in Eve...

Wonder what that reflects about me...
Hmm... I'll set it as room topic and ask myself as I log my alts in!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#236 - 2016-09-09 22:47:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP decided that the way forward was to try to lure in the latte sipping types of people who know what the word "microagression" means...
I resemble that remark, I like my lattes.

Interestingly enough the term micro-aggression is often associated with the term victim mentality.

Quote:
Maybe after this alpha clone stuff fails, maybe there will be a change of direction at CCP. Maybe they will get back to understanding that gamers exist that don't need help or hand holding, we just need a ship...and **** everything else.
Not going to happen, they have to keep their investors happy. Investors want a return on their investment and until CCP start making a profit from their other products that return is going to come out of Eve.

Hence the recent drive to increase the playerbase and potential income by shitting all over Eve making their existing niche game more mainstream.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#237 - 2016-09-09 23:05:45 UTC
I destroyed an Endurance in lowsec a few weeks ago.
Saw him in local, undocked my Naughty Spaecship™ and by deft use of tracking camera and d-scan was upon him before he had one cycle completed.
He remarked in local that this game is brutal, with an exclamation mark, further describing his efforts to raise the 20 odd million to set up his ice miner.
I offered to help him in a financial way, asking if he was ruined or broken-hearted but he cheerily informed me that he was off to get stuff and mine elsewhere. He sounded either British or Indian, which means buoyant and pragmatic to the point of SpongeBob.
He is the type of spaecman i admire and i shed a manly tear as he left local. I take my hat and my pants off to these immortal space gods.
The poor schmuck who lost a Tristan, smacking loudly in local for 30 minutes, mentioning Jesus and admonishing me on my choices, my ancestry and my sexuality? Best not to mention him. Let's just say that his corp lost quarter of a billion before learning to avoid certain areas and leave it at that.

Now try to convince me that it's my actions that are hurting the game, that the latter kind of player is who is needed in greater numbers. Ignore all the stats and numbers and facts, really go for it. Remember to delineate my moral guidance system with no other information than ingame activity.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#238 - 2016-09-09 23:24:40 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
He sounded either British or Indian, which means buoyant and pragmatic to the point of SpongeBob.

Indian, yes perhaps...but British? Buoyant? Smile



oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#239 - 2016-09-10 00:56:01 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
He sounded either British or Indian, which means buoyant and pragmatic to the point of SpongeBob.

Indian, yes perhaps...but British? Buoyant? Smile






Maybe if he is denial of all the rain, else he has gone crazy maybes.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#240 - 2016-09-10 01:18:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
No. "Griefing" like that has always been part of the game. To argue that is why subs are suddenly falling doesn't explain why they were rising.
The ability for players to impose spaceship violence has always been in the game, sure, but the desire to actively seek "tear extraction" has certainly grown by leaps and bounds. I don't think people are put of simply by ships exploding so much as autistic bile that more frequently comes along with it.

Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
You're making it seem as if griefing (ie: suicide ganking, scamming, corporate theft, etc.) is what caused Eve Online to suffer. If that was the case, Eve Online should have been dead back in 2003. But nope, here we are 13 years later standing.
I'm not. You're misunderstand what behaviours I consider to be griefing.

Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
The reason why Eve Online has been slow on growth or just overall stagnated for the past few years could be anything else besides griefing. Keep in mind that new players seem to join every time there is news of a major fleet battle that impacted the economy and power blocs. Ever notice a sudden uptick in new players almost immediately after the battle of B-R5RB or the battle of Asakai or maybe even the downfall of The Imperium? Especially after these battles were reported in major news outlets like Forbes.com.
Sure, and that shows that large scale in-game activity promotes new players, but outside of those times it really doesn't hold people interest. And sure, I don't suggest that all of that or even a major part of that is down to griefers, a lot of it is down to bad development, but many people who know about EVE are aware of how EVE players behave.

Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
Unfortunately even then, as one of the CCP Devs once mentioned during Fanfest 2016, the vast majority of new players trying out Eve Online don't stick around for more than a few hours before quiting and moving on the next game.
Why would they? The gameplay is archaic because every time they try to boost something that doesn't directly involve blowing up other players the PvPers start raging out about how ruined the game will be, and by the time you've had your first interaction with another player or seen the forum, you've probably had enough neckbeard for a good long time. Let's be real, most of us are here because we've been playing so long that quitting would seem like a waste.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.