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Why do people assume how we play the game reflects us in real life?

First post
Author
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#201 - 2016-09-09 17:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rin Vocaloid2
I would most likely brush them off and say "if you live in a Mad Max: Fury Road environment do you expect everyone to be nice to you?"

If anyone answers "yes" to that question, they don't belong in this game.

I do agree with Eternus8lux8lucis in that Eve Online allows us to see how we really are if societal laws in the real world didn't exist today. I have always wondered how it felt like to be the other end of a suicide gank so I stopped being a miner for a few days during the last-known Hulkageddon event and became a suicide ganker. I started to realize that even without societal restrictions in the real world I would most likely still have higher standards of my own. For example, I was mainly targeting mining ships that I suspect are botters at the time. Sometimes after ganking a miner I would give them quick advice on how to tank up their ships or stay alert. A sudden spike in Local in the middle of Hulkageddon should have been a red flag for these people. Those who were alert fly away to safety or were sufficiently tanked while the rest who were AFK at that moment would come back to their computers to see a smoldering wreck of what use to be their mining barge.

So I saw this is a means of getting miners to toughen up a bit so that only a smart and active miners can thrive while the botters and other AFK miners dwindle in numbers. Hulkageddon was a double-edged sword for me at least. On the one hand I was being the bad capsuleer attacking ships that aren't meant to fight back against PvPers. On the other hand I was actively hunting down bots who are known for hurting the bottom line for honest miners while teaching others to stop being so complacent about high-sec safety.

So perhaps deep down inside I would still maintain some morals even if the real-world society I live in were to remove all laws tomorrow. I just have to expect that the next person will not likely do the same.

PS: But let's face it, real-world societies would never get rid of law and order tomorrow. Humans, by their very nature, crave for law and order.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#202 - 2016-09-09 17:44:51 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
2) Most gankers use bots and it can be clearly seen in killboards, killing ganks are almost always the same, it's few players using several accounts at once, no doubt.
This is certainly an accusation i've never seen before, how would this even work?
I suppose you have some sort of proof?
You do know it's very easy to control multiple accounts at once without using bots right?


No, there is no proof, it is just made up horse****.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#203 - 2016-09-09 17:44:55 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
It's really pathetic to see persons that enjoy to annoy others complaining because the get insulted.

It's deserved and natural players think you are annoying persons even in real life.


Well in that case, IRL I think you are an *******.


I could take it as a compliment if it comese from you Blink
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#204 - 2016-09-09 17:46:10 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Wat?

You said everyone, we both know you are referring to one guy. If you don't think plenty of people have already reported him you are kidding yourself. What he is doing is perfectly fine.


I'm not referring to anyone specificly actually, but if someone is not botting he has nothing to fear from a report I suppose...
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#205 - 2016-09-09 17:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Lucas Kell wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
That's utterly nonsensical, as 52 card pickup is not within the ruleset of poker, whereas the "objectionable behavior" you're attempting to analogize as such IS within the ruleset of Eve.
No, but it is within the rulesets of "playing cards".



But you didn't suggest they were playing "Anything that can be played with playing cards," you specifically named poker, thereby constraining the rules to those of poker.

There is absolutely no analog for this in Eve. You cannot just log in and decide that you're only playing "Spaceminers" and that everyone playing with you is also playing "Spaceminers" and is thereby constrained to the rules of "Spaceminers", wherein blowing up Spaceminers with Spaceblasters is disallowed.

Quote:
EVE isn't a game with one ruleset, so it cannot be compared with a single game.


Uh, that's completely false. Eve has one set of rules - it just happens to be a long set.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#206 - 2016-09-09 18:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:

I do agree with Eternus8lux8lucis in that Eve Online allows us to see how we really are if societal laws in the real world didn't exist today.


Careful, there are examples where there is no "law" like we have today, but yet things were not Mad Max: Fury Road.

Ironically, one such place was...Iceland.

And we see this in game. Players come together and work cooperatively and do not run around shooting anything and everything. NS corporations, alliances and coalitions are examples of this. There is no "Law" like we have now in the game, it is private law--i.e. it is a set of social norms--do not shoot fellow corp mates. Do not shoot alliance mates. Do not shoot members of your coalition. To the extent that it does happen there are even avenues to resolve these problems.

This is an example of spontaneous order.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#207 - 2016-09-09 18:03:55 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:



But you didn't suggest they were playing "Anything that can be played with playing cards," you specifically named poker, thereby constraining the rules to those of poker.

There is absolutely no analog for this in Eve. You cannot just log in and decide that you're only playing "Spaceminers" and that everyone playing with you is also playing "Spaceminers" and is thereby constrained to the rules of "Spaceminers".


Funnily enough, that's just what some people think. They think the rules are what they want them to be, instead of what they actually are.

I used to wonder why people with some obvious...sensibilities that run completely counter to being able to enjoy EVE (ie if you don't like the idea of non-consensual pvp, why would you play a game that is world renowned for exactly that), then i realized that it's not at all unlike how in real life people act as if their internal ruleset trumps everything else.


Quote:

Uh, that's completely false. Eve has one set of rules - it just happens to be a long set.


Allow me. EVE's Rules. If it ain't in there, it ain't a rule.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#208 - 2016-09-09 18:12:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:

I do agree with Eternus8lux8lucis in that Eve Online allows us to see how we really are if societal laws in the real world didn't exist today.


Careful, there are examples where there is no "law" like we have today, but yet things were not Mad Max: Fury Road.

Ironically, one such place was...Iceland.

And we see this in game. Players come together and work cooperatively and do not run around shooting anything and everything. NS corporations, alliances and coalitions are examples of this. There is no "Law" like we have now in the game, it is private law--i.e. it is a set of social norms--do not shoot fellow corp mates. Do not shoot alliance mates. Do not shoot members of your coalition. To the extent that it does happen there are even avenues to resolve these problems.

This is an example of spontaneous order.


Well said.

I've heard people say "people in EVE are acting like they would if there were no laws". That's totally false, a world with no laws is still a world where death is permanent, unlike in a game. If all the laws went away, I still wouldn't climb into a row boat full of tnt and go ram a freighter lol. Well, i wouldn't do that in game either, but you get the drift.

Games let you do things you can't. Even if I were young enough to become an astronaut, I doubt there is anything to rat near Mars lol.

Hell, If EVE were real i wouldn't even be a capsuleer, I'd be a lowly middle aged half cybernetic beat cop on Caldari Prime being forced to listen to protestors talk about Minmatar lives....and how much they matter Twisted
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2016-09-09 18:33:55 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
It's really pathetic to see persons that enjoy to annoy others complaining because the get insulted.

It's deserved and natural players think you are annoying persons even in real life.


Well in that case, IRL I think you are an *******.


I could take it as a compliment if it comese from you Blink


Apparently the irony is lost on you.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#210 - 2016-09-09 18:35:46 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
But you didn't suggest they were playing "Anything that can be played with playing cards," you specifically named poker, thereby constraining the rules to those of poker.
Well if you took it that way I'm sorry for your misunderstanding, however I made it pretty clear what the point is.

SurrenderMonkey wrote:
There is absolutely no analog for this in Eve. You cannot just log in and decide that you're only playing "Spaceminers" and that everyone playing with you is also playing "Spaceminers" and is thereby constrained to the rules of "Spaceminers", wherein blowing up Spaceminers with Spaceblasters is disallowed.
No, but suggesting someone who plays this game that has MANY styles of play might has absolutely no reason to get frustrated when beaten by a different style is ludicrous, and that was the point. He compared it to monopoly because the idea of being frustrated by being beaten in a game of monopoly is silly, much like being upset when you engage in a frig battle and lose would be silly, I'm simply pointing out that a veteran player destroying a passive rookie isn't the same as two competitors playing monopoly.

And this still all remains beside the point since you've just taken a single quote out of context and acted like that's all that was being said. To be honest though if you think EVE and monopoly are direct equivalents, feel free to continue thinking that way.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#211 - 2016-09-09 18:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Jenn aSide wrote:
Quote:
Uh, that's completely false. Eve has one set of rules - it just happens to be a long set.


Allow me. EVE's Rules. If it ain't in there, it ain't a rule.
Except he knows full well I was talking about "rules" as in what separates different playstyles. He's just taken it out of context and is arguing semantics because his argument is weak.

Edit: also, there are rules that aren't there that will swiftly get you beaten about the head by CCP not to mention mechanically enforced gameplay rules that are not stated.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#212 - 2016-09-09 18:48:19 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
No, but suggesting someone who plays this game that has MANY styles of play might has absolutely no reason to get frustrated when beaten by a different style is ludicrous, and that was the point.


That's a particularly insipid point. You're basically white-knighting the infantile behavior of throwing a tantrum over the fact that you're not allowed to opt-out of the rules of the game that you dislike.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2016-09-09 18:51:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:

I do agree with Eternus8lux8lucis in that Eve Online allows us to see how we really are if societal laws in the real world didn't exist today.


Careful, there are examples where there is no "law" like we have today, but yet things were not Mad Max: Fury Road.

Ironically, one such place was...Iceland.

And we see this in game. Players come together and work cooperatively and do not run around shooting anything and everything. NS corporations, alliances and coalitions are examples of this. There is no "Law" like we have now in the game, it is private law--i.e. it is a set of social norms--do not shoot fellow corp mates. Do not shoot alliance mates. Do not shoot members of your coalition. To the extent that it does happen there are even avenues to resolve these problems.

This is an example of spontaneous order.


Well said.

I've heard people say "people in EVE are acting like they would if there were no laws". That's totally false, a world with no laws is still a world where death is permanent, unlike in a game. If all the laws went away, I still wouldn't climb into a row boat full of tnt and go ram a freighter lol. Well, i wouldn't do that in game either, but you get the drift.

Games let you do things you can't. Even if I were young enough to become an astronaut, I doubt there is anything to rat near Mars lol.

Hell, If EVE were real i wouldn't even be a capsuleer, I'd be a lowly middle aged half cybernetic beat cop on Caldari Prime being forced to listen to protestors talk about Minmatar lives....and how much they matter Twisted


Another interesting example where there was no formal law, but informal/private law was Shasta county California. There a set of rules and social norms developed that became the "Law".

For example, if you "broke the rules" the first offense was there would be a gossip campaign and you'd get the cold shoulder treatment.

Second infraction you might find some of your cattle has gone missing. The cattle were not stolen, they were just driven up into the high country making it a PITA to go find them and bring them back.

Third infraction you were informed that...well...the local fire brigade might have trouble getting out to your ranch.

And this system worked. People were not riding around on their horses with flame throwers and playing guitars.

Now this doesn't always work. It tends to work when you have say a small group. As the group size grows and there is more anonymous interaction then it is easier for people to take advantage of each other in negative ways without repercussions except those provided by the person they have just taken advantage of.

And we see this in game. A large alliance will have a set of rules and if you do not obey them they'll punish you. Kick you out and if possible shoot your stuff if you try to evac it. When it comes to coalitions they will probably have something more like what you'd see in Shasta County. I know in the Imperium there were avenues for low level grunts to resolve their grievances which usually revolved around somebody not in your alliance ratting in your ratting space. You didn't rush out there and blow them up. You first try talking to the guy, inform him of the rule/social norm. If he still doesn't leave you take screen captures and contact your alliance diplo. The alliance diplo contacts the diplo from the offending alliance. They talk look at the evidence. The corp diplo goes back and tells the offender, "Stop, or else".

None of this is provided by CCP. Players set this system up and it works pretty well. When you sit and think about this it is actually pretty impressive. People playing a game who do not know each other personally can develop a system in which people can coexist peacefully.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#214 - 2016-09-09 18:56:41 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
That's a particularly insipid point. You're basically white-knighting the infantile behavior of throwing a tantrum over the fact that you're not allowed to opt-out of the rules of the game that you dislike.
No I'm not, At no point have I justified "throwing a tantrum", I've simply disagreed with the notion that nobody ever gets frustrated in any way by a game and given one of the reason I feel that is.

At the end of the day, a lot of the people this thread is talking about go out of their way to get an emotional response from their targets, they don't want to win the game, they want to get the person on the other end of the keyboard upset. You shouldn't be surprised if sometimes that succeeds, and certainly shouldn't be leaping up onto your high horse saying "I don't get annoyed at monopoly so you must be a child for being upset". Personally, I don't invest enough in any game to care one way or the other, but I'm not so blinded by my ego to be completely unable to understand why others might.

And again, it's not about opting out of rules, there's multiple perfectly valid ways to play this game, and just like PvPers get raged out when their fleet of F1 monkeys don't stop at a red gate, people playing other playstyles can able be frustrated when their efforts don't work out.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#215 - 2016-09-09 19:34:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
My god what a stupid conversation.

You wouldn't call someone a megalomaniac if they beat you at Chess? Would you assume someone who beat you at mortal combat was a murderer in the making? Would you assume that because he chooses Raiden he is a closet "Frozen" fan?

Long and short is that people who get smacked down a lot in EvE like to make themselves feel better by claiming some sort of moral superiority over their attacker. It makes them a bit warmer inside to feel at least in some way rightious as they swallow the bitter sticky load of failure.

It's a game, if someone plays inside the rules you have not a leg to stand on questioning their RL moral compass. Grow up.


The whole point of the OP's post IS about the game and people's perceptions of his morality, you talk about suggestive thing you should look at yourself before you tell others to grow up and learn to restrain yourself when it comes to posting nasty things where children my see it, this game is not just played by adults.


Holy ****ing Hell...morality. Dude it is a game.

It. Is. A. Game.

Just because somebody wants to be the "bad guy" in the game does not mean they are history's greatest monster.

What he is talking about is the over the top invective directed at him for doing things that were fully intended by the game designers.

He is not the issue, the people spewing invective...they have some issues.



I disagree..

Do you seriously think bumping/ganking/bonus rooms etc were intended game play when this game was made?

Yes it's a game, it's also a game that's repeatedly shouted about as having real consequences as well, such as losing everything when you die, your ship/cargo etc.

When a player loses like that, and poor game mechanics help to facilitate that loss, and he ain't rich enough in game or real life to just replace it, (or even if he is) then yeah, he's gonna be pretty pissed off about it and if he then lets fly with abuse, tough.

If he doesn't want his feelings hurt there's a simple solution.
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#216 - 2016-09-09 19:48:20 UTC
Giaus Felix wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:

If your conscience lets you behave that way in game then I have no doubt whatsoever that that same conscience would let you behave that way irl....if you could get away with it.

Oh, and enough of the **** about they're only space pixels, behind every single space pixel is a real person. Whatever you're doing to said pixels is directly affecting a real person.

I'm not on about fleet battles, defence fleets etc so everyone trying to put them in the same category as griefing, forget it.
Well that's a dirty great steaming pile of dung Roll

Depriving people of space pixels is A: within the rules, and thus context of Eve, and B: well within the realms of fantasy; just like shooting people in the face in an FPS is within the rules and context of the genre, and also in the the realms of fantasy.

Quote:
This is about players like you getting their jollies off by causing as much grief and hassle to another player as they possibly can regardless of how much rl suffering you might be causing to the guy.

Thing is, you can only do it in HS, which is completely contradictory even in EVE. High Security should mean just that, and yes, I don't think the consequences are in any way near harsh enough for the griefers.

Now you can kick and scream about pvp and nothing is safe as much as you want, the fact is that players doing this crap in HS are just cowards hiding behind a pathetic game mechanic.
If you suffer real life suffering over the loss if some imaginary spaceships, in a game where imaginary spaceships are lost every minute of every day that the server is running, then you may want to reconsider your choice to play such a game.

As for consequences, any that go above and beyond those already provided by the game are up to players to inflict.

Quote:
Take bumping, you bump someone deliberately for an hour or more and don't think it's affecting someone? How ******* frustrated do you think the guy behind the other keyboard is feeling? I probably wouldn't have a keyboard left.....
If you get bumped for an hour... either the gankers are slacking because you should have exploded in the first 10 minutes or you're doing it wrong.

Quote:
Then you come on here crying about how you are perceived in game..you deserve everything you get, and more.
Nobody deserves to be told that someone is coming along shortly to sexually assault and murder their family, sadly it's a regular occurrence and the threats generally come from the people who claim to be "peaceful law abiding citizens".



Stop trying to twist what I said..

I'm on about a specific type of play in a specific area of space.

It's not just about losing ships either, it's more about HOW they were lost. In null where I am we can just shoot if anything like that was ever attempted. Get bumped in HS and you can't do a damn thing because if you shoot you get concorded, they are literally helpless unless they sub another 5 accounts to just do escort duties, maybe that's CCP's plan.

So yeah, keep attacking helpless ships and you'll more than likely get more abuse...tough. You want that game style, you suffer the consequences as well.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#217 - 2016-09-09 19:52:52 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
My god what a stupid conversation.

You wouldn't call someone a megalomaniac if they beat you at Chess? Would you assume someone who beat you at mortal combat was a murderer in the making? Would you assume that because he chooses Raiden he is a closet "Frozen" fan?

Long and short is that people who get smacked down a lot in EvE like to make themselves feel better by claiming some sort of moral superiority over their attacker. It makes them a bit warmer inside to feel at least in some way rightious as they swallow the bitter sticky load of failure.

It's a game, if someone plays inside the rules you have not a leg to stand on questioning their RL moral compass. Grow up.


The whole point of the OP's post IS about the game and people's perceptions of his morality, you talk about suggestive thing you should look at yourself before you tell others to grow up and learn to restrain yourself when it comes to posting nasty things where children my see it, this game is not just played by adults.


Holy ****ing Hell...morality. Dude it is a game.

It. Is. A. Game.

Just because somebody wants to be the "bad guy" in the game does not mean they are history's greatest monster.

What he is talking about is the over the top invective directed at him for doing things that were fully intended by the game designers.

He is not the issue, the people spewing invective...they have some issues.



I disagree..

Do you seriously think bumping/ganking/bonus rooms etc were intended game play when this game was made?

Yes it's a game, it's also a game that's repeatedly shouted about as having real consequences as well, such as losing everything when you die, your ship/cargo etc.

When a player loses like that, and poor game mechanics help to facilitate that loss, and he ain't rich enough in game or real life to just replace it, (or even if he is) then yeah, he's gonna be pretty pissed off about it and if he then lets fly with abuse, tough.

If he doesn't want his feelings hurt there's a simple solution.


I have a very simple suggestion:

Do not be imprudent then.

That's it. Don't be imprudent.

If you are imprudent, this is a game that will teach you the error your ways in an unpleasant manner.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#218 - 2016-09-09 19:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Ginger Naari wrote:


So yeah, keep attacking helpless ships and you'll more than likely get more abuse...tough. You want that game style, you suffer the consequences as well.


I like that you chose to use that word, as it's quite appropriate for the type of behavior we're discussing.

One party is merely playing the game in accordance with the rules, while the other party is being abusive.

What's interesting is all of the double-speak and mental gymnastics that go into trying to present the latter party as the morally sound of the two. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#219 - 2016-09-09 19:59:08 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:



Stop trying to twist what I said..

I'm on about a specific type of play in a specific area of space.

It's not just about losing ships either, it's more about HOW they were lost. In null where I am we can just shoot if anything like that was ever attempted. Get bumped in HS and you can't do a damn thing because if you shoot you get concorded, they are literally helpless unless they sub another 5 accounts to just do escort duties, maybe that's CCP's plan.

So yeah, keep attacking helpless ships and you'll more than likely get more abuse...tough. You want that game style, you suffer the consequences as well.


Plenty of room in 0.0 if hi-sec doesn't suit you.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#220 - 2016-09-09 19:59:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Nobody thinks they are a hero, we are just doing what is heeded to get ahead in an environment without consequences.

If you can't handle it I'm sure Hello Kitty online spoonfeeds and protects you enough to your standards


Jenn a'Snide was calling them heros, one of them goes out on missing people searches, and all of them were in the military or emergency services or something like that . It must be true Jenn a'Snide said it... Lol



LInk the post please. I've read two of her posts and while she listed some anecdotal evidence of what some of the "bad guys in EVE" did in RL I don't see claims that gankers are heroes.


Its is in this thread...


And I am seeing some of you gankers apply this comparisons to RL in terms of AG players which you refuse for yourself, please be consistent otherwise people will take you for hypocrites. Shocked


Okay, I don't see it. I saw 2 posts by Jenn and in neither I saw her saying something like gankers or scammers being heroes for being gankers or scammers. So...I'll assume, as usual, you got nothing.


You assume all the time.... Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp