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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Luscius Uta
#6621 - 2016-09-07 12:26:37 UTC
AFK cloakers don't concern me, but if faction police can prevent people with low security status from using cloaking devices, why other players shouldn't be able to do the same? There is already a sov upgrade that prevents cyno usage - why not add the one that does the same for cloaks?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6622 - 2016-09-07 13:55:14 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
AFK cloakers don't concern me, but if faction police can prevent people with low security status from using cloaking devices, why other players shouldn't be able to do the same? There is already a sov upgrade that prevents cyno usage - why not add the one that does the same for cloaks?

I think the effect of this is extremely predictable: only the owners of the system would be allowed to use cloak, and no one else.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6623 - 2016-09-07 14:20:32 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
So for you just fleeting up is all you need to do to deal with cloaky camping by PL or NCDOT., were you doing that in your wormhole (sarc) and it did not work for SMA against TISHU, I guess that was why SMA lost so much. And who the hell auto pilots a clone in hisec in that pipe, here we have someone who cannot even move a pod properly saying that to defeat being camped by PL just needs to be in fleet. There is a lot more to it then that... Roll


Reading is tough for you, isn't it?

People in SMA refused to join standing fleets. One of the reasons I quit (months before the TISHU incident, why do you keep bringing that up?) Refusing to be organized in standing fleets is absolutely one of the reasons why they lost so much. That's been the point here, sweetie.

Who cares about a clone that costs roughly zero ISK? What does that have to do with AFK cloaking?

It's nothing short of hilarious that you have to resort to talking **** about me since you can't back up what you're saying about cloaking. Stay on topic hun, or stay quiet and let the grown ups talk.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6624 - 2016-09-07 14:26:05 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
So for you just fleeting up is all you need to do to deal with cloaky camping by PL or NCDOT., were you doing that in your wormhole (sarc) and it did not work for SMA against TISHU, I guess that was why SMA lost so much. And who the hell auto pilots a clone in hisec in that pipe, here we have someone who cannot even move a pod properly saying that to defeat being camped by PL just needs to be in fleet. There is a lot more to it then that... Roll


Reading is tough for you, isn't it?

People in SMA refused to join standing fleets. One of the reasons I quit (months before the TISHU incident, why do you keep bringing that up?) Refusing to be organized in standing fleets is absolutely one of the reasons why they lost so much. That's been the point here, sweetie.

Who cares about a clone that costs roughly zero ISK? What does that have to do with AFK cloaking?

It's nothing short of hilarious that you have to resort to talking **** about me since you can't back up what you're saying about cloaking. Stay on topic hun, or stay quiet and let the grown ups talk.


But being in fleet is only part of dealing with a BLOP's drop, there is more to it then that, and we are not going to get that detail from someone who can't even work out how to get a pod safely across hisec. Such a simple thing and you can't do that... ShockedRoll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Luscius Uta
#6625 - 2016-09-07 14:36:10 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
AFK cloakers don't concern me, but if faction police can prevent people with low security status from using cloaking devices, why other players shouldn't be able to do the same? There is already a sov upgrade that prevents cyno usage - why not add the one that does the same for cloaks?

I think the effect of this is extremely predictable: only the owners of the system would be allowed to use cloak, and no one else.



Does Cynosural suppression works like that? Because nowhere I implied that Cloak suppression should whitelist the system owners

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6626 - 2016-09-07 14:43:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
But being in fleet is only part of dealing with a BLOP's drop, there is more to it then that, and we are not going to get that detail from someone who can't even work out how to get a pod safely across hisec. Such a simple thing and you can't do that... ShockedRoll


...which is why I said to PvE in a PvP fit ship.

Again, stay on topic sweetie. You're grasping at straws here.

Direct question, how often are you in a standing fleet when PvE-ing? I look forward to you not answering.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6627 - 2016-09-07 14:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
But being in fleet is only part of dealing with a BLOP's drop, there is more to it then that, and we are not going to get that detail from someone who can't even work out how to get a pod safely across hisec. Such a simple thing and you can't do that... ShockedRoll


...which is why I said to PvE in a PvP fit ship.

Again, stay on topic sweetie. You're grasping at straws here.

Direct question, how often are you in a standing fleet when PvE-ing? I look forward to you not answering.


There is more to it then that, keep going...

Direct answer, when I am PvE'ing in null sec I am always in fleet and always set up for PvP, you see 6 months after starting to play I went to Stain and spent the next 6 months operating out of a contested system, tends to give you a certain attitude.

But here is a direct question for you, are you talking about making it so they don't drop, or setting up to kill their fleet?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6628 - 2016-09-07 14:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Dracvlad wrote:
There is more to it then that, keep going...

Direct answer, when I am PvE'ing in null sec I am always in fleet and always set up for PvP, you see 6 months after starting to play I went to Stain and spent the next 6 months operating out of a contested system, tends to give you a certain attitude.

But here is a direct question for you, are you talking about making it so they don't drop, or setting up to kill their fleet?


You're a rarity if you're always in a standing fleet while PvEing in null.

I've answered that question already. Set up to deter a drop (not prevent), but be prepared to kill the fleet if they do
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6629 - 2016-09-07 15:08:42 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
There is more to it then that, keep going...

Direct answer, when I am PvE'ing in null sec I am always in fleet and always set up for PvP, you see 6 months after starting to play I went to Stain and spent the next 6 months operating out of a contested system, tends to give you a certain attitude.

But here is a direct question for you, are you talking about making it so they don't drop, or setting up to kill their fleet?


You're a rarity if you're always in a standing fleet while PvEing in null.

I've answered that question already. Set up to deter a drop (not prevent), but be prepared to kill the fleet if they do


So does being in a fleet deter a drop? What do you do to add to that deterrence, do you tell then in local that you are in the standing fleet and you will kill them if you drop on them, do you tell them you have a cyno fitted, do you park a load of ships around a Titan in a POS so they know its there, that is deterrence, the whole damn fleet could be AFK., or perhaps you assume they have spies in your alliance and that they know just who is active in that standing fleet.

The main victims of AFK cloaking camping are the people who are outside the normal TZ of their alliance and thus have little support, so merely being in a standing fleet is often a paper tiger. How do you keep people prepared 24/24 7/7, it would be truly fascinating to see how you do it? That is a super impressive alliance, can I join?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6630 - 2016-09-07 15:13:39 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
So does being in a fleet deter a drop? What do you do to add to that deterrence, do you tell then in local that you are in the standing fleet and you will kill them if you drop on them, do you tell them you have a cyno fitted, do you park a load of ships around a Titan in a POS so they know its there, that is deterrence, the whole damn fleet could be AFK., or perhaps you assume they have spies in your alliance and that they know just who is active in that standing fleet.

The main victims of AFK cloaking camping are the people who are outside the normal TZ of their alliance and thus have little support, so merely being in a standing fleet is often a paper tiger. How do you keep people prepared 24/24 7/7, it would be truly fascinating to see how you do it? That is a super impressive alliance, can I join?


I've said this already. Keep up. Rat/mine in groups. 15 people ratting on the same grid are much more difficult to drop than a single person.

Join an alliance that has decent recruiters, and has a global presence. I said that more than a few times as well.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6631 - 2016-09-07 18:43:22 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
vipeer wrote:
To summarize your point of view:
Just fleet up, just be more organized, have a 20 man standing fleet waiting to come and help....



No. You're ratting ships in a fleet are your standing fleet.

If you have AFK campers then get a 10 man fleet and run anomalies. Use PvP fits. Maybe even bring logistics. We've done this when we were deployed to NPC null. We'd run anomalies and scan down sites and run them so the people living there could not run them.

Quote:
And as someone pointed out that I'm a horrible person for have been doing AFK camping. As long as it's possible, it's ok and not breaking any EULA's I'll abuse the mechanic just like anyone else when it's needed. Easy as that. But I've not done it for hunting for Blops. Just to **** with other alliances ADM when it's needed (which made AFK Cloaking a much more interesting activity after AegisSov). We do all our blops hunting with active toons scouting systems and moving all the time.


I just find it rather ironic you are here complaining bitterly about AFK camping and at the same time admit you do it too. Then to say, we'll it isn't against the EULA is even more hilarious. Basically you are saying, "It is bad, please somebody stop me from doing it!"

Okay. We'll zap local, move intel into a structure with limited fitting options so you have trade offs in terms of the type of intel you can gather. Further your intel infrastructure will not be vulnerable to attack/subversion as well.

See, a solution. But not some dipshit heavy handed freebie kind of solution, but one that entails making choices--i.e. opportunity cost. You do understand opportunity cost don't you? Let me know, I'll be happy to give you a long and probably boring discussion of the topic.



The hubris in this is amusing.

Yes I am very aware of the CFC's attempts to disrupt a certain NPC based alliance which failed because they were funded by Gevlon Goblin. What you did was with other CFC entities (EXE don't have enough active players to do this on their own) and was combat plexing in enemy space against an enemy that did hit and run attacks on your ratters using interceptors and destroyers and very effectively too. Just not a good example to use and pretty meaningless, its just ego posting...



I don't think so, this was several years ago, and our alliance deployed from Cloud Ring (where we lived at the time) yo Outer Ring. We wanted to have some fun with the locals there, but they typically turtled up so we ran thier anomalies and killed their POCOs and set up our own. Then when we "left" they'd hit our POCOs, but we'd come back down (partially hoping for a fight) and save them. Turned out to be good ISK too because we set the taxes at the same level as our alliance had them in Cloud Ring.

So unless Gevlon was funding these guys you are wrong. And this had nothing to do with the CFC as it was just something we did not the entire CFC.

So Mr. Know-It-All-But-Not-Really, shove it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6632 - 2016-09-07 18:44:17 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
First, there is probably already something similar/same in this thread, but I'm too lazy to read 6600+ comments. Sorry for that.
Also I never did, or was a victim of AFK cloaking, I simply think about fixing the mechanic.

Here is the idea: the cloak works as it used to for 30 minutes, then it starts to overload. After 15 minutes of overloading the cloak collapses. During the overload period extra seconds are added to the cloak reactivation delay on an exponential rate, starting from 1 sec and tops on 10 minutes. This extra time adds even if the ship has some cloak reactivation bonus, like the Prospect for example.
This makes cloakers to become vulnerable for 15sec/30min-10min/45min. The key note: no more infinite AFK!


Why should an active cloaker have his game nerfed?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6633 - 2016-09-07 20:13:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
vipeer wrote:
To summarize your point of view:
Just fleet up, just be more organized, have a 20 man standing fleet waiting to come and help....



No. You're ratting ships in a fleet are your standing fleet.

If you have AFK campers then get a 10 man fleet and run anomalies. Use PvP fits. Maybe even bring logistics. We've done this when we were deployed to NPC null. We'd run anomalies and scan down sites and run them so the people living there could not run them.

Quote:
And as someone pointed out that I'm a horrible person for have been doing AFK camping. As long as it's possible, it's ok and not breaking any EULA's I'll abuse the mechanic just like anyone else when it's needed. Easy as that. But I've not done it for hunting for Blops. Just to **** with other alliances ADM when it's needed (which made AFK Cloaking a much more interesting activity after AegisSov). We do all our blops hunting with active toons scouting systems and moving all the time.


I just find it rather ironic you are here complaining bitterly about AFK camping and at the same time admit you do it too. Then to say, we'll it isn't against the EULA is even more hilarious. Basically you are saying, "It is bad, please somebody stop me from doing it!"

Okay. We'll zap local, move intel into a structure with limited fitting options so you have trade offs in terms of the type of intel you can gather. Further your intel infrastructure will not be vulnerable to attack/subversion as well.

See, a solution. But not some dipshit heavy handed freebie kind of solution, but one that entails making choices--i.e. opportunity cost. You do understand opportunity cost don't you? Let me know, I'll be happy to give you a long and probably boring discussion of the topic.



The hubris in this is amusing.

Yes I am very aware of the CFC's attempts to disrupt a certain NPC based alliance which failed because they were funded by Gevlon Goblin. What you did was with other CFC entities (EXE don't have enough active players to do this on their own) and was combat plexing in enemy space against an enemy that did hit and run attacks on your ratters using interceptors and destroyers and very effectively too. Just not a good example to use and pretty meaningless, its just ego posting...



I don't think so, this was several years ago, and our alliance deployed from Cloud Ring (where we lived at the time) yo Outer Ring. We wanted to have some fun with the locals there, but they typically turtled up so we ran thier anomalies and killed their POCOs and set up our own. Then when we "left" they'd hit our POCOs, but we'd come back down (partially hoping for a fight) and save them. Turned out to be good ISK too because we set the taxes at the same level as our alliance had them in Cloud Ring.

So unless Gevlon was funding these guys you are wrong. And this had nothing to do with the CFC as it was just something we did not the entire CFC.

So Mr. Know-It-All-But-Not-Really, shove it.


That might have been when I was in EXE then, but still has nothing to do with dealing with a BLOP's attack by someone like PL.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6634 - 2016-09-07 20:36:11 UTC
vipeer wrote:
So nice how you selected to ignore most of the points and just try to bash me.

Teckos Pech wrote:

No. You're ratting ships in a fleet are your standing fleet.

If you have AFK campers then get a 10 man fleet and run anomalies. Use PvP fits. Maybe even bring logistics. We've done this when we were deployed to NPC null. We'd run anomalies and scan down sites and run them so the people living there could not run them.


So, this still requires a big alliance/corp with quite a lot of people online at the same time. And you still just focus on ratters. How about minters? A person should just be ship spinning until there is enough people online to form a fleet? 8 people online, damn guys we can't form a fleet as only 4 of us want to rat today. Ok, I will logout and play something else.
Which means, there is even less content for an active blops hunter or for any other content generation.

And you also choose to ignore all the points about risk aversion when blopsing, how easy it's to be ISK possitive etc...


Taking this in chunks.

Well...how many people did you need to take that system and hold it? And the surrounding systems? Seriously, you can get people online to take the system, but you guys can't be bothered to log in a fraction of that number and deal with a guy cloaked in system?

And the number depends on the people who are cloaking. There should be more to intel than just staring at local. Use killboards. What is the range on BLOPs? Scout the surrounding area.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6635 - 2016-09-07 20:37:52 UTC
vipeer wrote:


Yepp, that's absolutely a solution I could support and discuss around. I fully support that there should be pros and cons like with almost everything else in EVE.


I did...admittedly it might be back 50 pages. But I have been advocating something this for a long time.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6636 - 2016-09-07 20:40:58 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


That might have been when I was in EXE then, but still has nothing to do with dealing with a BLOP's attack by someone like PL.


There were several groups calling Outer Ring home then and we basically went down there and stirred the pot with all of them. In fact, they had a separate staging system and they actually teamed up--i.e. they could have come in and dropped on us if they had really wanted too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6637 - 2016-09-07 20:51:58 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


So does being in a fleet deter a drop? What do you do to add to that deterrence, do you tell then in local that you are in the standing fleet and you will kill them if you drop on them, do you tell them you have a cyno fitted, do you park a load of ships around a Titan in a POS so they know its there, that is deterrence, the whole damn fleet could be AFK., or perhaps you assume they have spies in your alliance and that they know just who is active in that standing fleet.

The main victims of AFK cloaking camping are the people who are outside the normal TZ of their alliance and thus have little support, so merely being in a standing fleet is often a paper tiger. How do you keep people prepared 24/24 7/7, it would be truly fascinating to see how you do it? That is a super impressive alliance, can I join?


It could deter a deter a drop. If you have 8 guys in your fleet and you see 5 ishtars all working an anomaly...you might not drop on them. Of course, maybe they have 10 guys and feel they can tank the 5 ishtars long enough to take out enough of them to win the fight.

The point is if you raise the difficulty level they may move on. If you want certainty...well...isn't that kind of like ratting in perfect safety?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6638 - 2016-09-09 06:45:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


So does being in a fleet deter a drop? What do you do to add to that deterrence, do you tell then in local that you are in the standing fleet and you will kill them if you drop on them, do you tell them you have a cyno fitted, do you park a load of ships around a Titan in a POS so they know its there, that is deterrence, the whole damn fleet could be AFK., or perhaps you assume they have spies in your alliance and that they know just who is active in that standing fleet.

The main victims of AFK cloaking camping are the people who are outside the normal TZ of their alliance and thus have little support, so merely being in a standing fleet is often a paper tiger. How do you keep people prepared 24/24 7/7, it would be truly fascinating to see how you do it? That is a super impressive alliance, can I join?


It could deter a deter a drop. If you have 8 guys in your fleet and you see 5 ishtars all working an anomaly...you might not drop on them. Of course, maybe they have 10 guys and feel they can tank the 5 ishtars long enough to take out enough of them to win the fight.

The point is if you raise the difficulty level they may move on. If you want certainty...well...isn't that kind of like ratting in perfect safety?


That is more than just being in a standing fleet, of course that is more of a challenge, but are you aware of the standard fit of Burn Eden for example, which includes high end implants, the EHP of the BLOP's was close to 230k or something like that. I am not sure how your 5 Ishtars would do against 10 BLOP's like that, though if you had a rapid response you might be able to catch one if you were fast enough, very difficult to do.

And its the rapid response of the standing fleet which is key to this.

And by the way, those people in Outer Ring were utterly useless and cannot be compared to a BLOP's setup by a top line alliance.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6639 - 2016-09-09 07:08:23 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


So does being in a fleet deter a drop? What do you do to add to that deterrence, do you tell then in local that you are in the standing fleet and you will kill them if you drop on them, do you tell them you have a cyno fitted, do you park a load of ships around a Titan in a POS so they know its there, that is deterrence, the whole damn fleet could be AFK., or perhaps you assume they have spies in your alliance and that they know just who is active in that standing fleet.

The main victims of AFK cloaking camping are the people who are outside the normal TZ of their alliance and thus have little support, so merely being in a standing fleet is often a paper tiger. How do you keep people prepared 24/24 7/7, it would be truly fascinating to see how you do it? That is a super impressive alliance, can I join?


It could deter a deter a drop. If you have 8 guys in your fleet and you see 5 ishtars all working an anomaly...you might not drop on them. Of course, maybe they have 10 guys and feel they can tank the 5 ishtars long enough to take out enough of them to win the fight.

The point is if you raise the difficulty level they may move on. If you want certainty...well...isn't that kind of like ratting in perfect safety?


That is more than just being in a standing fleet, of course that is more of a challenge, but are you aware of the standard fit of Burn Eden for example, which includes high end implants, the EHP of the BLOP's was close to 230k or something like that. I am not sure how your 5 Ishtars would do against 10 BLOP's like that, though if you had a rapid response you might be able to catch one if you were fast enough, very difficult to do.

And its the rapid response of the standing fleet which is key to this.

And by the way, those people in Outer Ring were utterly useless and cannot be compared to a BLOP's setup by a top line alliance.


I have always been quite clear that if you have a hostile in system you should be working at a group, not off in your own anomaly.

Safety in numbers.

If there is no hostile in system, yes standing fleet (and on comms) and you can each be in your own sanctum.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#6640 - 2016-09-09 09:20:27 UTC
Again discussion is of track - Practices, fits, methods of counter is not what this discussion is intended for.
Pros and cons on ideas of AFK cloaking please.