EVE General Discussion

Chribba I am waiting for the day that you reveal you were like James 315 or something, some riotous pirate yarrbear that terrorized Eve, founder of m0o or something like this. It would just make me laugh and laugh till I cried.

IZ is a SJW.
That confirms it.

A SJW is a person who, besides other things, turns definitions upside down to make them suit.

You're not a carebear, though, you simply share typical traits.
Like hypocrazy.

To make this understandable:
SJW are incredibly racist, yet turn it around claiming those they are racist against are the racist ones.
A move shared with politicians.


And someone trying to support movements against Asbestos doesn't need to be a SJW.

This is wrong. It's a view held only by people who have a too narrow definition of "PVP" ie "pvp is blowing ships up". Blowing ships up is only a direct form of pvp, but essentially everything we do that gains us something over other players is pvp.

The real 'carebear' is the person who feels like the game owes them not only safety, but a guaranteed good time. They reject the very idea that other people exist, and they choose to play a game where other people can gain enjoyment at the cost of their own.

The real name of the game in EVE is to prevent others from enjoying the game at the cost of your own enjoyment. This isn't telling people how to play (the carebear ALWAYS defaults to the self serving lie of 'you just want to make me play like you') this is telling people the reality of the game. No different than most real life games. Like how in soccer your entire mission is to not only score goals, but prevent the other side from scoring too.

The standard carebear answer to what I've said above is: "But CCP should make a game we can all enjoy". That's crazy, what makes eve special is the fact that we all affect each other with the things we do, and in that kind of environment, someone is going to lose sometime.

By my definition, a carebear is someone who expects 'others' to provide for their safety.

Not all PvEers, miners, haulers or highsec dwellers are carebears.
Not all PvPers are not-carebears.

There are however some stereotypes that hold true: those looking to maximize rewards yet can't be bothered to pay attention or lift a finger in self defense; those who never provide content and expect content to be handed on a silver platter ... browse the forums long enough and you'll find no shortage of people calling X 'unfair' and demand a nerf while counters to X already exist.

Several species are known to man.
- AFKbear. Seeks richess without actually doing anything.
- Nullbear (AFKbear operating in nullsec).
- Concordbear (akin to nullbear, but in highsec). Concord being part of highsec mechanics is one thing, counting on it as your only line of defense is another.
- Hubbears (looking for green killboards on undocks, but never ever take a real fight. Dares not leave the docking ring).
- Cloakbear (is perpetually looking for easy targets to hotdrop, yet again never looking for a fight. Dares not show himself).
- Campbear (sits on a gate 24/7 as part of a fleet but actually contributes nothing and runs at the first sign of trouble).
- Walletbear (never looks at local nor the overview) - most common varieties are the Minebear and the FacWarBear.
- Strategic Bear (only flies T3 cloaky and nullified ships) - standard configurations include ExplorationBear and OffgridLinkBear.
- NPC Bear (sits nice and cozy in NPC corps).
- Cheap-o-bear (contributes at most 8 mil to any fleet). We see for example GankBear, MaulusBear and WhorePainterBear. Even though they fully expect to lose their vessels, the safety measures are actually taken even before undocking, simply by putting nothing of value on the line. They literally can't lose. Their killboards are stuffed to the brim with capital ships for nigh-100% efficiency.

Many more exist, but I think this adequately paints the picture.

Just about everybody who does pvp also does some "carebear" stuff. Most people who pvp enjoy many aspects of the game. I do occasional pvp, suicide ganking, mining, trading, exploration and when I need to sleep I run level 4 missions (that's 100% true).

Most people who say they mine or mission try to do no pvp whatsoever, but they fail because Eve is always pvp. That's where the derogatory connotation of "carebear" comes in.

An easy way to tell is it's someone who cares about their ship. If you get destroyed in a ball of fire there is a 5 second rule, if you are upset for more than 5 seconds you are a carebear.

Carebear can used in different ways, not all of them bad. Pvp and pve and what defines each has been debated many times in eve. It depends on who is arguing the point and what point they are trying to make.

Ill use the universal definition of carebear and pvper. That is... the definition that is roughly the same from game to game.

* A carebear is someone who doesnt engage in pvp activities willingly. They go out of their way to avoid pvp activities and areas. They will choose to play on a pve server if available. And if they are forced to play on a pvp server, they will play in the safest area , they can find. On a pvp server they will often complain about not having a PVE only area or server for people that do not want to engage in pvp.

* A pvper is someone who actively tries to kill other players. That is the accepted universal definition of a pvper. People in eve try to do a strict interpretation of PVP to suit their argument but a pvper is and has always been for the last 20 years of MMO gaming " a player that tries to kill other players"

Eve does not NEED Pvers despite what many Pvers may think. PVPers also do pve and are self sufficient enough that they can build their own stuff when not pvping.

Eve DOES need PVPers for the economy to work properly. The game is designed around PVP. Removing PVP from it would make everything is Eve basically worthless and their would be no point to the game because Eve does not have an endgame. This is why the consensus is that Eve is a PVP game and PVE is a necessary part of the game for it to function under its current design. The alternative would be a battlegrounds systems which would get old and boring for "real" pvpers quickly.

I used the term "real" pvpers. What is that? Real PVP is "open world" pvp in which there are real consequences for losing and real rewards for winning. Real pvp anything goes within the game mechanics and the sides are not limited to A vs B nor or they limited to equal numbers or equal anything for that matter. Eve is real pvp.

Fake PVP or Carebear PVP is instanced pvp in which the game tries to make the sides as equal as possible for a certain fight that you give your consent to be in. You are rewarded in some way for winning but you dont lose anything but your time for losing. WoW PVP, as well as most games are set up as Fake PVP.

* High sec is not designed to be a permanent home. Actually, its more accurate to say that CCP encourages you to leave highsec but wont kick you out of it. So PVPers tend to feel a bit of ill will and lack of sympathy for high sec bears. To us your usually complaining about something in highsec that is exclusive to highsec and could be solved by leaving highsec but instead of leaving highsec, you choose to complain about it. That is how many of us view high sec bears.

Many people not in highsec have a disdain view of highsec bears because they refuse to leave what we consider to be the "newbie" area and yet complain about it and dying in it. They feel that anything outside highsec is dangerous, but really they are to lazy to put forth the effort to be safe in non safe areas. I do 4-12 hours of PVE in null and sometimes w space/low a week and i havent been killed doing PVE in about 2 years. So i must be extremely lucky.... or i just learned game mechanics and how to do things safely.

High sec bears arent the only ones that the rest of the game has disdain for. High sec "pvpers" also share the scorn because we dont consider shooting people on jita undock and ganking miners and freighters to be real pvp. However the high sec pvpers dont usually complain and they do provide a service of discouraging our members from carebearing it up and of driving some of the highsec bears out of highsec. So we mostly look upon them with disinterest in their affairs.


Ironically, Null/w-space/low bears dont catch the same amount of flak as high bears. In fact, null bears rarely get "picked on". This is because, we actually find these bears to be not only useful, but much much less whiny. Non high bears, build our ships, supply us with ammo, keep our markets stocked, mine our fuel, fuel our structures( and build them) and make the alliances money. While the PVPers keep people out of our space and take space and also keep the demand up for ships mods and ammo. About the only thing we ask of non high bears is that they help defend our space if we are at risk of losing it and i really dont think thats to much to ask since they use the space.


So really its not because a person is a carebear but because they refuse to leave high sec. And most wont leave highsec because they are under some impression that they are going to instantly explode everything they undock except in high sec.

The game is designed to encourage you to leave high sec. you can do everything in low and null that you can do in high sec and it pays much better. Null is actually safer, most of the time, than high sec is. Which makes null residents absolutely dumbfounded why high sec residents complain about highsec but wont leave it.

Also this game is not designed to play solo and even for an introvert, such as me, it is far more fun playing as part of a group than it is solo regardless of what you are doing.

Edit to Add: I should also note that Null bears actually help with defense by keeping the ADMs up. So they do far more to contribute to the PVP community than their high sec cousins, thus making them even more valuable to pvpers. Especially PVPers that deploy regularly.

Carebear , like troll, is a term so overused that it's come to mean either nothing or something simplistic far from it's original usage.
Political correctness is a tiny part of the corporate control of language and therefore thought.
Since usage defines meaning carebear is a contemptuous term for someone who rejects the whole concept of violence. Implied are weakness, cowardice and lack of knowledge.
Little mentioned in discussions about such terms is the fact that a solid 10% of all people completely freeze or lose control of fine motor skills when confronted by violence, even virtual violence against mere pixels. Some pacifists are people incapable of offense or defense, who would change the world to treat them nicely.
They must be punished.

Bit of a tangent, but I will say that I often wonder this.

I play EVE because it meets my entertainment needs. it gives the the opportunity to play Han Solo against murderous pvp'rs (people think of him as a fighter, but Solo is a SMUGGLER adept at the art of RUNNING THE F AWAY WITH THE LOOT). If EVE weren't a PVP focused game (both in direct terms of combat and indirect terms of me selling my deadspace loot for less than the next guy) it would not meet my entertainment needs, and thus I wouldn't play it.

But people DO play it while complaining that the game doesn't meet their expectations, or they hate the fact that they have to share the game with "people who just want to crap all over everyone else" etc. This forum is a monument to people who hate the thing they are paying for.

My theory about such folks is that they don't live in the now, but rather defer their lives to the future. It doesn't matter that their experience right now is crappy, what matters is that it could be so much better in the future (if only CCP nerfs the people and gameplay they don't like).

I personally wonder how people have the audacity to think the devs should change the game to fit their play style rather than change their play style to fit the game they choose to play.