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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6541 - 2016-09-05 20:44:49 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Well if you are talking about 0.0 unless it is NPC space you can attack the station using an entosis or blast the services, and if it is a citadel you can blast. Whats more they are on the overview and citadels can be probed down, so you are wrong. People who resort to cloaky AFK camping could force a fight if they wanted to, but no its just lazy play that is all they can do...


Could you be more ridiculous? Come on man. Just give up and admit you want to PvE risk free in null already.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6542 - 2016-09-05 20:46:21 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
Everyone gets caught up in the details and forgets the real imbalance.
Active or not, once cloaked in a system Hi or null, there is no current game mechanic to counter Cloaked ships.
by whatever with agis sov and many Many other changes and more to come, the "good" of cloaking is not really being used except a few people, who ,to quote an old adversary, want to cause tears and gank people in Easey theme park mode. Those are also the ones why Cry the loudest that we cant change because then they may have to really work for a kill instead of waiting on somone to make a mistake.
The best defence against ADM is not cloaky camping its Small gangs and blops.
Watching local, being on coms, and aligned 100% of the time without distraction will never happen 100% of the time.
That includes Cloaked afk scouts looking for anyone new to pass into the system next door.
Yes I am stating that Cloaky camping is also use by those who are prey to watch out for you the hunter.
The only 100% item in this discussion is the "fact" yes I use it here. That once in system and cloaked there is no way to interact with that pilot until that cloaked pilot chooses. It is infact safer than being in a station, pos, outpost.
I think a majority of us only desire the satisfaction of blowing holes in the ship of a cloaked pilot that thought it would be a good idea to log in and then go clubbing.


There is no counter to someone being in station either.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6543 - 2016-09-05 20:49:59 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well if you are talking about 0.0 unless it is NPC space you can attack the station using an entosis or blast the services, and if it is a citadel you can blast. Whats more they are on the overview and citadels can be probed down, so you are wrong. People who resort to cloaky AFK camping could force a fight if they wanted to, but no its just lazy play that is all they can do...


Could you be more ridiculous? Come on man. Just give up and admit you want to PvE risk free in null already.


You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its harder to kill someone in a station than it is to find someone cloaked.

Call it imbalanced if you want, but without it you rat risk free and that's even worse than what we have now.


His statement is wrong, you can find and attack the station and citadel, simple that...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6544 - 2016-09-05 20:50:09 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


I never claimed to be awesome, I just play to be difficult to kil, however I have ratted in 0.0 with people in system because I had the intel on them and knew that at that point in time they had no chance to kill me with what they had and what I and my friends had. The suggestion about the AFK flag is to enable me to make that assessment following on from the removal of the watch list and the addition of skill injectors. Both highly important reductions in terms of my ability in assessing risk and knowing when I should start trying to bait them.

I support the removal of watch lists, and I support the Skill injectors, but like anything it has impacts on game balance in terms of the increased impact of AFK cloaky camping.


Getting something with no effort, or even one time effort is not good. Imagine setting up a POS to mine moon goo an never having to fuel it or even have to go collect the moon goo. Yes there is effort, the one time effort to set up the POS and miner.


It is called having to defend it, rather like you have to do with Sov, but I forget, you never really defended your sov, the Goons did it for you...


Then what is the difference between AFK flag and a structure that lets you find the AFK cloakers? Nothing really? Except the AFK flag will still have the Bads™ whining here because they'll still be worried that said AFK cloaker will stop being AFK and they can't tell when.

Further, you complain about the AFK part, but your solution does precious little about it. AFK cloaking will still go on, now people will just know they have not put in any input into the client.

No, if we are to kill AFK cloaking, do it properly. Kill local, move intel into structures and make them vulnerable and allow for scanning of AFK ships as one of the options for structure based intel.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6545 - 2016-09-05 20:51:37 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well if you are talking about 0.0 unless it is NPC space you can attack the station using an entosis or blast the services, and if it is a citadel you can blast. Whats more they are on the overview and citadels can be probed down, so you are wrong. People who resort to cloaky AFK camping could force a fight if they wanted to, but no its just lazy play that is all they can do...


Could you be more ridiculous? Come on man. Just give up and admit you want to PvE risk free in null already.


You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its harder to kill someone in a station than it is to find someone cloaked.

Call it imbalanced if you want, but without it you rat risk free and that's even worse than what we have now.


His statement is wrong, you can find and attack the station and citadel, simple that...


So you can attack the station. BFD, even if you take it, I'll still be logging in and sitting there...and you'll never know when I might undock in something and do something like kill some Bads™ ratting ship.

And if it is NPC null good luck.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#6546 - 2016-09-05 21:12:15 UTC
You can attack a station but it does nothing to the player within.

If you want the high rewards of null then yes you should put in the effort to work in groups or pay attention. Players that want to play half assed can live in hi sec and accept the reduced rewards. Thats risk/reward done right.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#6547 - 2016-09-05 22:19:52 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.


I'm 90% sure you've never actually played this game. You're really saying it's easier to take out someone docked in a station in sov null than someone solo cloaked in NS?

Really?

Really...

come on, stop trolling already.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6548 - 2016-09-06 05:33:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well if you are talking about 0.0 unless it is NPC space you can attack the station using an entosis or blast the services, and if it is a citadel you can blast. Whats more they are on the overview and citadels can be probed down, so you are wrong. People who resort to cloaky AFK camping could force a fight if they wanted to, but no its just lazy play that is all they can do...


Could you be more ridiculous? Come on man. Just give up and admit you want to PvE risk free in null already.


You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its harder to kill someone in a station than it is to find someone cloaked.

Call it imbalanced if you want, but without it you rat risk free and that's even worse than what we have now.


His statement is wrong, you can find and attack the station and citadel, simple that...


So you can attack the station. BFD, even if you take it, I'll still be logging in and sitting there...and you'll never know when I might undock in something and do something like kill some Bads™ ratting ship.

And if it is NPC null good luck.


You never read anything do you, I said unless its NPC 0.0. Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6549 - 2016-09-06 05:39:34 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You can attack a station but it does nothing to the player within.

If you want the high rewards of null then yes you should put in the effort to work in groups or pay attention. Players that want to play half assed can live in hi sec and accept the reduced rewards. Thats risk/reward done right.


So when I was in SAS holding B7 in Querious in came some Russians and we did not have enough to fight them so they took out three services, the clone bay, the repair shop and the industrial, this did affect the players inside the station.

So lets go back on your statement, because these players worked as group and did something to the player in the station, people sitting there AFL cloaky camping and moaning about not being able to get at people in the station are pretty pathetic... RollBig smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6550 - 2016-09-06 05:43:19 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.


I'm 90% sure you've never actually played this game. You're really saying it's easier to take out someone docked in a station in sov null than someone solo cloaked in NS?

Really?

Really...

come on, stop trolling already.


You are seriously bad at this, the key word is that with friends I can shoot station services until they go off line, this can be a major pain as it affects the clone bay, the repair shop and the industry, I have had it done to me and I have done it to others. I cannot do anything like that to people cloaked up in space.

So there are ways to get at people in stations, contrary to what he implied, just because you have no idea about certain aspects of the game does not mean that others like me don't.

And the answer is really.... Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6551 - 2016-09-06 05:43:29 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You can attack a station but it does nothing to the player within.

If you want the high rewards of null then yes you should put in the effort to work in groups or pay attention. Players that want to play half assed can live in hi sec and accept the reduced rewards. Thats risk/reward done right.


So when I was in SAS holding B7 in Querious in came some Russians and we did not have enough to fight them so they took out three services, the clone bay, the repair shop and the industrial, this did affect the players inside the station.


But you could still log in and sit there AFK for hours on end and they'd have know way of knowing if you'd undock in something and kill some ratters. Maybe fit a cyno and bring in some buddies, etc.

Quote:
So lets go back on your statement, because these players worked as group and did something to the player in the station, people sitting there AFL cloaky camping and moaning about not being able to get at people in the station are pretty pathetic... RollBig smile


How about we stop with "worked as a group"? See, working in a group allows you to accomplish stuff you can't do solo...like deal with an AFK camper.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6552 - 2016-09-06 05:44:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.


I'm 90% sure you've never actually played this game. You're really saying it's easier to take out someone docked in a station in sov null than someone solo cloaked in NS?

Really?

Really...

come on, stop trolling already.


You are seriously bad at this, the key word is that with friends I can....


...and not worry about an AFK cloaker.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6553 - 2016-09-06 05:45:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.


I'm 90% sure you've never actually played this game. You're really saying it's easier to take out someone docked in a station in sov null than someone solo cloaked in NS?

Really?

Really...

come on, stop trolling already.


You are seriously bad at this, the key word is that with friends I can....


...and not worry about an AFK cloaker.


Wrong... Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6554 - 2016-09-06 05:47:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You have the ability to get on people if you put effort in.

This statement below is rubbish, means nothing, just to repeat it as you left it off, unsurprising that.


I'm 90% sure you've never actually played this game. You're really saying it's easier to take out someone docked in a station in sov null than someone solo cloaked in NS?

Really?

Really...

come on, stop trolling already.


You are seriously bad at this, the key word is that with friends I can....


...and not worry about an AFK cloaker.


Wrong... Roll


Nope. Funny how you suddenly bring in friends when it suits your position, but you leave them out when it doesn't. You are intellectually dishonest.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6555 - 2016-09-06 05:48:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You can attack a station but it does nothing to the player within.

If you want the high rewards of null then yes you should put in the effort to work in groups or pay attention. Players that want to play half assed can live in hi sec and accept the reduced rewards. Thats risk/reward done right.


So when I was in SAS holding B7 in Querious in came some Russians and we did not have enough to fight them so they took out three services, the clone bay, the repair shop and the industrial, this did affect the players inside the station.


But you could still log in and sit there AFK for hours on end and they'd have know way of knowing if you'd undock in something and kill some ratters. Maybe fit a cyno and bring in some buddies, etc.

Quote:
So lets go back on your statement, because these players worked as group and did something to the player in the station, people sitting there AFK cloaky camping and moaning about not being able to get at people in the station are pretty pathetic... RollBig smile


How about we stop with "worked as a group"? See, working in a group allows you to accomplish stuff you can't do solo...like deal with an AFK camper.


Well not an issue for me as I am purely focused on people having an impact while AFK and therefore being impossible and a waste of time to bait, so your reply to me has no relevance.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6556 - 2016-09-06 05:50:19 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
You can attack a station but it does nothing to the player within.

If you want the high rewards of null then yes you should put in the effort to work in groups or pay attention. Players that want to play half assed can live in hi sec and accept the reduced rewards. Thats risk/reward done right.


So when I was in SAS holding B7 in Querious in came some Russians and we did not have enough to fight them so they took out three services, the clone bay, the repair shop and the industrial, this did affect the players inside the station.


But you could still log in and sit there AFK for hours on end and they'd have know way of knowing if you'd undock in something and kill some ratters. Maybe fit a cyno and bring in some buddies, etc.

Quote:
So lets go back on your statement, because these players worked as group and did something to the player in the station, people sitting there AFK cloaky camping and moaning about not being able to get at people in the station are pretty pathetic... RollBig smile


How about we stop with "worked as a group"? See, working in a group allows you to accomplish stuff you can't do solo...like deal with an AFK camper.


Well not an issue for me as I am purely focused on people having an impact while AFK and therefore being impossible and a waste of time to bait, so your reply to me has no relevance.


You don't know if the guy in station is AFK or not. So in the current environment it is very similar to AFK cloaked or AFK in station....possibly with a wide variety of ships at his disposal....including one's with a cloak.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6557 - 2016-09-06 05:53:08 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well not an issue for me as I am purely focused on people having an impact while AFK and therefore being impossible and a waste of time to bait, so your reply to me has no relevance.


You don't know if the guy in station is AFK or not. So in the current environment it is very similar to AFK cloaked or AFK in station....possibly with a wide variety of ships at his disposal....including one's with a cloak.


My OS would not detail their status to the cloaker, but the camper could put one up...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6558 - 2016-09-06 05:58:43 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well not an issue for me as I am purely focused on people having an impact while AFK and therefore being impossible and a waste of time to bait, so your reply to me has no relevance.


You don't know if the guy in station is AFK or not. So in the current environment it is very similar to AFK cloaked or AFK in station....possibly with a wide variety of ships at his disposal....including one's with a cloak.


My OS would not detail their status to the cloaker, but the camper could put one up...


As I said, your structure is no different really than one that allows cloaked ships to be scanned after a given period of time (say something short like 5 minutes).

However, you solution would almost surely still have posts here by the horrible players in rental empires saying, "I can't tell when he'll come back and he still scares me."

No, get rid of AFK cloaking, local and move it all over to a structure where the players using such structures face various trade offs when fitting modules for intel purposes. Trade offs also have another name--costs. If you want to be able to find that AFK cloaker you have to give up something else too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
vipeer
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#6559 - 2016-09-06 06:00:30 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

But you could still log in and sit there AFK for hours on end and they'd have know way of knowing if you'd undock in something and kill some ratters. Maybe fit a cyno and bring in some buddies, etc.


Seriously?

First of all, you can normally not dock and "hide" in a 0.0 Station and just undock on a whim. And if you indeed had a clone + great ship there, once you have undocked you can't redock. So it's a one time deal.
Secondly, while you are docked you have no idea what's out in the belts, can't cloaky sneak up on them etc.
For the third, I've never seen any really worried about someone who's docked up as he is indeed possible to deal with. When he undocks he will show up on dscan or be visible for a short period and can possibly be hunted at that time compared to someone who's just sitting AFK and is totally undetectable.

Infinite Point - a mature and stable PVP corp in TEST Alliance

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#6560 - 2016-09-06 06:07:40 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well not an issue for me as I am purely focused on people having an impact while AFK and therefore being impossible and a waste of time to bait, so your reply to me has no relevance.


You don't know if the guy in station is AFK or not. So in the current environment it is very similar to AFK cloaked or AFK in station....possibly with a wide variety of ships at his disposal....including one's with a cloak.


My OS would not detail their status to the cloaker, but the camper could put one up...


As I said, your structure is no different really than one that allows cloaked ships to be scanned after a given period of time (say something short like 5 minutes).

However, you solution would almost surely still have posts here by the horrible players in rental empires saying, "I can't tell when he'll come back and he still scares me."

No, get rid of AFK cloaking, local and move it all over to a structure where the players using such structures face various trade offs when fitting modules for intel purposes. Trade offs also have another name--costs. If you want to be able to find that AFK cloaker you have to give up something else too.


Totally different, the objective is not to ruin the base functionality of cloaks, and is focused on the AFK part of the equation only.

And that some players would still moan about it shows my suggestion is likely to be the best one, if both extremes don't like it it has to be good. Big smile

Local will be an OS, the AFK flag will be another OS these will have to be defended, there is a trade off. But the key aspect is that the person AFK and I repeat AFK cloaky camping is not going to have a free walk in the park with his lameness...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp