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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

First post First post
Author
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#901 - 2016-09-02 00:12:12 UTC
Are there going to be new ships that will be able to reduce the effective area of the Command Bursts?

Not being a Slowy Muldune here but if a Anti-Command Burst Ship simply wanted too see fleets run in all directions as the bonuses flicker on and off shouldn't an attacking fleet have the option to ECM the Command Bursts with the Command Burst being able to effective counter the ECM attack?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#902 - 2016-09-02 00:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Lunarstorm95 wrote:

Im not a fan of the possible t3 cloaky nulli drive-by boosts, but that requires 100% attentiveness form the pilot so it may not be that bad.



It will weed out the baddies...but still leaves the good ones to do this. the mechanisms won't be extremely hard for this. If the player(s) skill is above f1 spam monkey levels.

TBH, crews looking to do this would just need to find the good ARPG gamers in their crew. Skillsets from that genre will apply well here. Most break down to getting timings down, build up your effects for the big attack (usually AOE based, odd coincidence there lol) release of doom....then set it all up again as you do this throughout the whole level.

Mess this up you don't push the levels worth a damn. Mess this up on hardcore on higher levels (greater rifts in diablo 3 as an example)...you may be dying real soon, permanently.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#903 - 2016-09-02 01:03:11 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
am i the only one who has noticed that the numbers in the blog for max value with skills/ships/plants don't add up?

some have a higher base value yet lower max? even though ships skills and plants are giving the same bonus and there is a new rig that gives a 25%

We already discussed the rig. The rig is only slated to give +1 command burst processor. The "25%" is a notation for tech II command processors.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#904 - 2016-09-02 01:06:19 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Lunarstorm95 wrote:

Im not a fan of the possible t3 cloaky nulli drive-by boosts, but that requires 100% attentiveness form the pilot so it may not be that bad.



It will weed out the baddies...but still leaves the good ones to do this. the mechanisms won't be extremely hard for this. If the player(s) skill is above f1 spam monkey levels.

It's also worth noting that Tech III cruisers carry fewer boosts, those boosts are weaker, and those boosts have a shorter range. Overall I feel that's great balance for the versatility of putting your boosts on the T3cruiser.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#905 - 2016-09-02 04:30:43 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
am i the only one who has noticed that the numbers in the blog for max value with skills/ships/plants don't add up?

some have a higher base value yet lower max? even though ships skills and plants are giving the same bonus and there is a new rig that gives a 25%

We already discussed the rig. The rig is only slated to give +1 command burst processor. The "25%" is a notation for tech II command processors.



yeah meant mod either way why do they have a higher base yet lower max?
Defentora Thentax
Derpyversity
#906 - 2016-09-02 07:08:25 UTC
pve is never taken into consideration when making changes like this, pve is what keeps feeding eve, isk, ships, everything, so we force boosters on grid of all types, mining links should stay off grid so we can continue to fill the markets without blowing up the prices, i can understand warfare links coming on grid, but when i run missions i do like to off grid boost or for ratting in null.

BUT AFK CLOAKING ISNT EVEN BEING ADDRESSED WHEN BRINING OFF GRID BOOSTERS ON GRID?! why not bring cloaky campers right on top of the closest ship in system after 10mins in hopes they die in a fire. this is an issue that has been around for a LONG time and there IS NO COUNTER, unlike scanning down a links ship. my links toon will be bio massed, he was trained to OGB for pve reasons/ system defense. im not giving ccp anymore money than i already do paying subs to extract, and im not wasting isk on them either seeing as isk/hr will diminish weather its mining, incursions, or other pve and production will slow.

IMHO more negative things will come of this as a whole than good. more accounts WILL cancel. the more casual player like myself doesn't log on to have the task load of a 2nd job, log on throw some links up and rat or mine, maybe start a couple jobs go to bed, now its gonna be, micro managing another toon, more so than even ratting in a carrier or anything else for that matter.

bringing links on grid could have been done better in a different way. getting rid of cloaky campers should be priority

end of rant, Eve is life and i care about what ive built in eve i have many friends here, hopefully someone at ccp gets it right one a these days
Lugh Crow-Slave
#907 - 2016-09-02 07:25:52 UTC
some one who is cloaked can't hurt you

some one who is afk really can't hurt you
Arrendis
TK Corp
#908 - 2016-09-02 08:42:25 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
some one who is cloaked can't hurt you


Spoken like someone who's never been scouted for a pipebomb.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#909 - 2016-09-02 09:31:36 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
some one who is cloaked can't hurt you


Spoken like someone who's never been scouted for a pipebomb.


they can't hurt you

they can help some one else hurt you or they can decloak and hurt you but while cloaked they cant touch you
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#910 - 2016-09-02 13:23:44 UTC
Akoha Uisen wrote:
3. Remove industrial boosts from the game. Turn the porpoise, orca and rorqual into battlecruiser hull size, battleship hull size and capital hull size mining barges. Go big or go home.


It would be nice if you could do more in an on-grid Orca (mining-wise) than deploy 5 t2 mining drones, for sure. And I do hope the Porpoise will be more of a hybrid boost/mining ship itself.

Kaile Nefertiti wrote:
Do we know if the new mining BC booster will be able to mine also? I really hope so cuz sticking a character that usually mines into a boosting ship just to sit there and give boosts is very boring gameplay.

The combat boosters get guns also to help wth dps or other stuff, please give the mining booster the ability to mine also!


Exactly like that. I really hope so, too. I think that would be much more rewarding gameplay for the Porpoise pilot than just boosting.

Gerark wrote:
On the matter of skill refunds, I only feel Wing/Fleet Command deviate far enough from current function to deserve consideration for refunds if they are no longer needed for making large fleets. If fleets are allowed to form to max size with no skills then these two skills should be removed and refunded and the Burst range skills should be new skills that you get the skill books free and refunded SP so you can train if you want them, invest in other areas if you don't.

tl,dr: Passive bonuses remaining would be nice. Refund WC/FC if no longer needed for forming large fleets.


Indeed. Leadership skill itself isn't such a time sink, but WC/FC are such epic time sinks that either a full refund of them (so that only people interested in flying actual boosting ships can reinvest the SP back into them, but people who had them just to pass down boosts while flying non-boosting ships don't need to retrain them), or else they should reduce the multipliers on them to something more like x4 or x5 or x6 at most, and refund the difference in SP to all proportionally.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#911 - 2016-09-02 13:32:22 UTC
Warlord Balrog wrote:
- During combat, when the fleet's collective remaining HP drops below 25% will you be able to swap charges from say... Shield Extension & Harmonizing to Armor Reinforcement & Energizing like you can with ammo and other charges or will it follow the "Run what you brung" mantra you've adopted? This module to charge change is slightly confusing aspect if you cannot change during combat timer.

- Likewise bursts cannot be stacked, will this include say a Leadership + Information specialist at 5 having Superiority & Hardening but NOT the Optimization prevent a Leadership 5/Information specialist 3 WITH said Optimization from boosting the fleet?
-- If so, will there be a 'flag' (such as free-move or the command positions) preventing such abuse?
-- If not, how will BIAB choose?

- The implants will be changed from a certain bonus to AoE radius, will CCP be reimbursing the focused implants?


I thought there was going to be one command burst highslot module per boost category. Meaning a separate module for shield, armor, info, skirmish, and mining. Although some have said why not just further condense to just 1 module and then provide the ammo/scripts to select the boost you want to boost.

But anyway, assuming it's the former system (5 types of command burst modules), then you wouldn't be able to rescript a shield module to give armor boosts. You'd have to use a separate boost module you have fitted at the same time or else use a mobile depot to swap out modules. the ammo types will only swap between the 3 subtypes of each main type, or so it appears is the plan for now.

Tavari Minrathos wrote:
2: Are you considering a 3rd rig slot as part of the command ship rebalance?

3: I know its coming in the 3rd blog, but can you give an idea of how extensive the changes to combat boosting ships (command ships in particular) are going to be? Are we talking minor grid/CPU adjustments, major overhauls, or just rebalancing within the ship class?

4: Has the design team planned for players twisting links. By twisting, I mean giving 2 buffs from 1 module by changing ammo types every cycle after max duration skills? Is this the designed intent for high skill play or do you see boosting modules more as utility high slot.


Re: #2: that'd be nice, as I think 5 maximum boosts would be a lot better for command ships than 4 maximum boosts... but seeing as how t2 ships are limited to 2 rig slots, I doubt they're going to make an exception for command ships, when they only have 2 rig slots now, same as the other t2 ships. I think instead they should raise the proposed "default/base 2 boosts" limit back up to the current 3 base boost modules that command ships currently have access to without using command processors.

Re: #3: I think they're going to be pretty extensive. Not only PG/CPU changes but also slot layout changes, bonuses, base amounts of shield/armor/hull HP, etc. Maybe resists, too.

and re: #4: Based on the current durations, though, if you try to boost both "A" and "B" effects from a single module by reloading ammo/changing scripts, you will not be able to start a 2nd cycle of the "A" effect boost at the moment the 1st cycle ends. Which means if it's something really important to the fleet around the command ship, the fleet might be screwed. A bit dangerous. Would only be good for less vital boosts, like some of the info ones/the MWD/AB skirmish one. Can't see doing that with the shield/armor tank ones and the sig radius/web range skirmish ones. Too crucial to keep those going constantly in many situations.

Warlord Balrog wrote:
Lastly, I don't think you'll be seeing many Orcas, and unless they're very secure and/or rich, Rorq pilots boosting on field very often after the change. Hell, I bet skill injector prices will burst because of the leadership changes, many Orca pilots will repurpose or quit (probably ragequit after spending a few billion on skills and the now useless MF implant).

Not that anyone cares, but I'll be extracting all leadership skills and hold a candlelight vigil for anything relying on it (*cough* Fighters *cough*). Oh, and probably Cybernetics 5, as there'll be no implants requiring it of use anymoreOops


Isn't the MF implant like 50 mil ISK?

Anyway, Cybernetics 5 will still be useful for +5s and for +6% combat hardwiring implants, so... still plenty of reasons to have it besides mindlinks.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#912 - 2016-09-02 13:34:00 UTC
Defentora Thentax wrote:
pve is never taken into consideration when making changes like this, pve is what keeps feeding eve, isk, ships, everything, so we force boosters on grid of all types, mining links should stay off grid so we can continue to fill the markets without blowing up the prices, i can understand warfare links coming on grid, but when i run missions i do like to off grid boost or for ratting in null.

BUT AFK CLOAKING ISNT EVEN BEING ADDRESSED WHEN BRINING OFF GRID BOOSTERS ON GRID?! why not bring cloaky campers right on top of the closest ship in system after 10mins in hopes they die in a fire. this is an issue that has been around for a LONG time and there IS NO COUNTER, unlike scanning down a links ship. my links toon will be bio massed, he was trained to OGB for pve reasons/ system defense. im not giving ccp anymore money than i already do paying subs to extract, and im not wasting isk on them either seeing as isk/hr will diminish weather its mining, incursions, or other pve and production will slow.

IMHO more negative things will come of this as a whole than good. more accounts WILL cancel. the more casual player like myself doesn't log on to have the task load of a 2nd job, log on throw some links up and rat or mine, maybe start a couple jobs go to bed, now its gonna be, micro managing another toon, more so than even ratting in a carrier or anything else for that matter.

bringing links on grid could have been done better in a different way. getting rid of cloaky campers should be priority

end of rant, Eve is life and i care about what ive built in eve i have many friends here, hopefully someone at ccp gets it right one a these days



I have to agree .... on grid combat links are quite different than off grid mining boosts, but CCP apparently doesn't see it that way.

Now if CCP actually sat down with miners to find out how they do mining ops .....


Oh wait, nevermind. They don't do that.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#913 - 2016-09-02 13:40:34 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Defentora Thentax wrote:
pve is never taken into consideration when making changes like this, pve is what keeps feeding eve, isk, ships, everything, so we force boosters on grid of all types, mining links should stay off grid so we can continue to fill the markets without blowing up the prices, i can understand warfare links coming on grid, but when i run missions i do like to off grid boost or for ratting in null.

BUT AFK CLOAKING ISNT EVEN BEING ADDRESSED WHEN BRINING OFF GRID BOOSTERS ON GRID?! why not bring cloaky campers right on top of the closest ship in system after 10mins in hopes they die in a fire. this is an issue that has been around for a LONG time and there IS NO COUNTER, unlike scanning down a links ship. my links toon will be bio massed, he was trained to OGB for pve reasons/ system defense. im not giving ccp anymore money than i already do paying subs to extract, and im not wasting isk on them either seeing as isk/hr will diminish weather its mining, incursions, or other pve and production will slow.

IMHO more negative things will come of this as a whole than good. more accounts WILL cancel. the more casual player like myself doesn't log on to have the task load of a 2nd job, log on throw some links up and rat or mine, maybe start a couple jobs go to bed, now its gonna be, micro managing another toon, more so than even ratting in a carrier or anything else for that matter.

bringing links on grid could have been done better in a different way. getting rid of cloaky campers should be priority

end of rant, Eve is life and i care about what ive built in eve i have many friends here, hopefully someone at ccp gets it right one a these days



I have to agree .... on grid combat links are quite different than off grid mining boosts, but CCP apparently doesn't see it that way.

Now if CCP actually sat down with miners to find out how they do mining ops .....


Oh wait, nevermind. They don't do that.



I don't see the issue with needing to put an asset on grid in order to reap the benefits. When you can just keep an orca safely tucked on the undock what is the downside to using it? Why would anyone with access to an orca not use one?

Pretagos Omilas
Made in Wormhole Space
#914 - 2016-09-02 14:09:55 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Defentora Thentax wrote:
(...)

I have to agree .... on grid combat links are quite different than off grid mining boosts, but CCP apparently doesn't see it that way.

Now if CCP actually sat down with miners to find out how they do mining ops .....


Oh wait, nevermind. They don't do that.

I don't see the issue with needing to put an asset on grid in order to reap the benefits. When you can just keep an orca safely tucked on the undock what is the downside to using it? Why would anyone with access to an orca not use one?


This discussion is running in circles... plenty of people already pointed out the current broken "get benefits for zero risk" mechanic of possed boosts; I have yet to see a response addressing that argument from a miner other than "this is how miners do things for I.don't.know.how.long and we are (for some reason) entitled to it!"

Anyone feel free to link me a post I might have missed reading in this thread addressing it.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#915 - 2016-09-02 14:25:18 UTC
Well I geuss I am a super-minority here then. Anybody else use their Rorq for hauling/surveying/faction dread ratting?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#916 - 2016-09-02 14:26:35 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Well I geuss I am a super-minority here then. Anybody else use their Rorq for hauling/surveying/faction dread ratting?


i used one for running relic/data sites once
Celina Atari
Clan Atari
#917 - 2016-09-02 16:40:27 UTC
Thank you for removing every reason I trained these skills. They are now useless to me.
Demortis
Galloglas
Fraternity.
#918 - 2016-09-02 17:30:11 UTC
You do know your destroying Mining Fleets right. I just reading everything and I have to ask are you out of your minds. First it's hard enough to live in null as it is but now you moving into a constant death strike every time we are working a system. Now your making boosters get on grid with you miners and your showing the enemy your entire fleet setup. Placing 1.2Bn booster ships in dangerous space. In effect you changing the tables to favor even more pvp side not the people building there ships and fits. If you look at the current trends pvpers have dismembered most large mining corps and are now feeding on everything else. To empower them even more is a massive blow to the core builders in eve. I was wondering why that trade hubs are dieing and member counts are way down. I love eve but there won't be any boosting from me anytime soon.

I believe the best idea CCP could have is fix all the broken not working stuff first and complete there dev in fixing up the orca and the rorqual like we heard they would do first before turning a blind eye to what they haven't done to bring in a bad idea for miners. Distance is a huge problem for me my asteroids are from about 20km - 400km apart from each other that's not even close to the boosts they are bringing in 500km would cover the belt that is fair. Also no m3 gain come on what is going on over there really. Last thing is markings come on now that's the worst idea ever who thought of that we as miners need to be alert at our boosts not open for any random person to look at.

Like mad is one thing wondering who brought the drugs to work is something else wake up CCP.
VicturusTeSaluto
Abyssal Nanofibre Internal Structure
People Assaulting People in Space.
#919 - 2016-09-02 17:36:12 UTC
I do not like this change as I see it following CCP's consistent theme of only making changes to the game to make combat less likely to occur.

For me, when gang links are used it is almost exclusively for tackling. Usually that would mean the Interdiction Maneuvers link, but some others help a little as well. Removing the point range bonus already applied to your tackler as soon as the land on grid will be another huge nerf to tackling. These point bonuses are needed because CCP has already gone out of their way to give every advantage in the book to your intended target. Not only are at baseline they likely to be 100km off your warp in and algined, but MWD's now more or less accelerate at afterburner speeds following the old, over-zealous "nano-nerfs" affecting every ship that fits a MWD. You probably need a long range scram with your long range point as well because they gave them the escape tool of the MJD as well. Good lucky keeping them there with your webs that are not as effective as they were originally intended to be. And of course how will you even know when to look for your target or if they unsubbed a year ago now that CCP apparently removed the watchlist to make eve once again a less risky place. I could keep going forever.

On top of everything, in typical CCP fashion they go one step further from what was intended in the first place of their redesign and remove all bonuses from the gang skills themselves?
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#920 - 2016-09-02 17:36:53 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
[quote=Balder Verdandi]

... or instead of an mwd you could oh idk fit a web or two to the miners?

but i may just be crazy


You are crazy. The only barges that could realistically fit a web are procurers/skiffs.

And 3 Tech 3 Destroyers with 1 logi frig can wipe out an entire mining fleets even of procurers and then if they brought enough ammo they kill the orca too.

So its virtual suicide for orca/rorquals to be in belts. High sec Orcas are the exception here.

Only rorqual I've ever seen in a belt.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/46142133/

Only Orca I've ever seen in Nullsec outside of a POS.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/48186533/