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More fitting choices

Author
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-09-01 08:35:40 UTC
I think the game would benefit from more choices in regards to T1 hulls and weapons systems.

T1 hulls that fire larger sized rounds should inherit bonuses from lower hulls.

If I fly a Caracal the bonuses should be:

5% bonus to Rockets, Light Missiles, Heavy Assault Missiles and Heavy Missile rate of fire
10% bonus to Rockets, Light Missile, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity

Likewise for the Typhoon

5% bonus to Rockets, Light Missiles, Heavy Assault Missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruise Missiles and Torpedo rate of fire
5% bonus to Rockets, Light Missiles, Heavy Assault Missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruise Missiles and Torpedo explosion velocity

It doesn't make a great deal of sense that you can fit a rocket to a specialised missile battleship, greatly reducing the potential dps and receive no missile bonus at all. But you can fit them to a frigate or a destroyer and get huge bonuses.

Fitting smaller systems is already a nerf since the systems do vastly reduced damage.

Lets look at an example of what the system would look like on a Typhoon before everyone screams OP'ness.

Unbonused T2 Rockets on a Typhoon all L5 skills:

DPS: 173
Explosion Velocity: 250.937
Range: 14.1km


Bonused:

DPS: 216
Explosion Velocity: 313.671
Range: 14.1km


Hardly overpowered imo and allows for an enormous amount of new fits opportunities.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-09-01 17:32:04 UTC
...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2016-09-01 17:44:36 UTC
why should bigger ships just flat be better?
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-09-01 19:58:04 UTC
Well typhoon always confuses me with being sold as "RHML" ship, while it has only a RoF bonus that applies to it.
So heavy missiles would be neat.

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016

FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#5 - 2016-09-01 20:55:46 UTC
Since i started playing eve in 08 i have wanted a battleship sized module that launches ~1k rockets at a time, think an even more rapid launcher...

It will never see the light of day because of balance issues but it'd LOOK amazing especially with the new-ish graphical prowess of the engine
Lugh Crow-Slave
#6 - 2016-09-01 22:14:50 UTC
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
Well typhoon always confuses me with being sold as "RHML" ship, while it has only a RoF bonus that applies to it.
So heavy missiles would be neat.


it is done that way so you don't fit a cruiser sized system to it

the bonus to ROF can be done to add dps only to RHML where as the pure damage bonus would apply to both. its the same with all RHML and RLML ships
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2016-09-01 23:22:09 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does.

Except A: Rapid launchers aren't bonused even when you fit the right sized weapons.
And B: Frigates have guns that work fine against everything. The meta is currently heavily biased in only one direction, CCP Devs themselves have admitted it in a great many places, and this is something that would take steps to equalising out the meta between small & large ships.
Also C: If you aren't a missile boat you don't have a 'rapid' option anyway.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#8 - 2016-09-01 23:27:37 UTC
The Barghest and Rattlesnake would like to talk to you for a minute.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lugh Crow-Slave
#9 - 2016-09-01 23:30:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does.

Except A: Rapid launchers aren't bonused even when you fit the right sized weapons.
And B: Frigates have guns that work fine against everything. The meta is currently heavily biased in only one direction, CCP Devs themselves have admitted it in a great many places, and this is something that would take steps to equalising out the meta between small & large ships.
Also C: If you aren't a missile boat you don't have a 'rapid' option anyway.


A rapid launchers are bonused

B small guns are given lower dps and larger ships are given higher EHP. the reason the meta is so biased has more than application to thank for that

C if you are a turret boat you can do much more to help your application
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2016-09-02 00:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Danika Princip wrote:
...No, you cannot have an option to just drop a depot, swap guns and delete anyone who tries to tackle your battleship. Fit rapid launchers if you want bonused smaller missiles, or just fend tackle off with drones (or, y'know, your support) like everyone else does.

Depots can be easily reinforced.

In addition, the bonuses are quite small as I demonstrated.



Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why should bigger ships just flat be better?

Why should smaller ships just flat be better?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2016-09-02 01:19:48 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

A rapid launchers are bonused

B small guns are given lower dps and larger ships are given higher EHP. the reason the meta is so biased has more than application to thank for that

C if you are a turret boat you can do much more to help your application

A: Every BC disagrees. Half the Widow bonuses disagree, Most of the Golem bonuses disagree, RNI disagrees, Half of the Raven bonuses disagree, Half the Typhoon bonuses disagree. So no, Rapid launchers are not 'bonused'. A few ships have limited bonuses to them in the larger range, and some cruisers have some bonuses also.

B: Higher EHP is useless when your effective DPS is lower, since small guns apply much better. And totally, it's more than just application, but you have to give something back to the larger classes, and it's not going to be mobility.

C: Not really. Everything a large turret boat can do to help application a missile boat can also do. And a missile boat can never be totally out tracked.


The Depot argument is actually a decent one, but maybe the solution to that is to slow down depots so they actually become a S Citadel you drop in a safe in the system, not something you keep picking up and dropping with you in every single mission/anom/sig/belt. They probably are too good at escape fitting and not good enough at working as a roaming base.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#12 - 2016-09-02 01:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Why should smaller ships just flat be better?



Why have different ship classes if we are going to have every thing kill everything just as well.

Lets just have same ship...different skin. Hell...lets just fire up pong.



Its not the small ships fault. its how damage is calculated. Analogy time.

Shooting a target the size of a playing card at 500 yards. Hard.
Shooting a target the size of a house at 500 yard. Easier.


Speed and sig radius and all the good stuff. A frigate spec'd to track a frigate moving very fast with very low sig radius and hit it is going to hit BS's really well when they have on average sig radii several times over a frigate and moves slower. Don't like this aspect, work on a different, and viable replacement. Fix that...please fix missiles as a second miracle. Hitting non moving targets not at full paper max is always fun.
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2016-09-02 02:22:53 UTC
You already have the fitting choices. You can choose to sacrifice your bonuses and DPS in exchange for some application. That's a choice. Like you said, these ships are specialized. You can't expect to ram some undersized weapon onto it and expect the same performance.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#14 - 2016-09-02 03:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
You already have the fitting choices. You can choose to sacrifice your bonuses and DPS in exchange for some application. That's a choice. Like you said, these ships are specialized. You can't expect to ram some undersized weapon onto it and expect the same performance.



I sense....hates rapid reload time syndrome. They should have led off with guns...there we'd get at least fitting arguments as tacking on TC/TE/Web/hell paint (local or a buddy running it)...I'd feel some empathy. I use all weapons systems, better tracking guns can have you eat some time in pyfa for sure to find a happy medium.

But fair enough, rapid reload does suck. But being objective its a fair balance really. At least with my use on rattler....what rapid heavies do to small crap is amazing. Changed my outlook on missile BS's for sure. It was small stuff I dreaded. Even with very good drone skills to kill small stuff the old fashioned way. 30 seconds balances the carnage it can do imo.

Besides the ooh ahh factor not seeing the rocket desires. But....never caught the allure of them. By and large I liked lights for snipe at edge of point with frigate use. I want to come in shotgun to the face style...I have minmatar and gallante cross trains for that with guns.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#15 - 2016-09-02 04:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

A rapid launchers are bonused

B small guns are given lower dps and larger ships are given higher EHP. the reason the meta is so biased has more than application to thank for that

C if you are a turret boat you can do much more to help your application

A: Every BC disagrees. Half the Widow bonuses disagree, Most of the Golem bonuses disagree, RNI disagrees, Half of the Raven bonuses disagree, Half the Typhoon bonuses disagree. So no, Rapid launchers are not 'bonused'. A few ships have limited bonuses to them in the larger range, and some cruisers have some bonuses also.

B: Higher EHP is useless when your effective DPS is lower, since small guns apply much better. And totally, it's more than just application, but you have to give something back to the larger classes, and it's not going to be mobility.

C: Not really. Everything a large turret boat can do to help application a missile boat can also do. And a missile boat can never be totally out tracked.


The Depot argument is actually a decent one, but maybe the solution to that is to slow down depots so they actually become a S Citadel you drop in a safe in the system, not something you keep picking up and dropping with you in every single mission/anom/sig/belt. They probably are too good at escape fitting and not good enough at working as a roaming base.



A. those hips do have full DPS bonuses to the RML in the form of ROF in order to keep the bonus from affecting standard launchers as well.(with some exception)

Widow -> 5% rof (no range bonus)
typhoon -> 5% rof (no range)
tfi 7.5% to damage witch is exciting
sni 5% rof
Caracal 5% rof
orth 15% to damage and 200% to vel (50% reduced flight time)

this isn't even all but yeah they are soooo unbonused

B: yet i can get my BB to apply well over 80% of its damage to cruisers and nearly 50% to frigs still more than they do to me.How do i do it? I have a support fleet full of wonderful webs and paints. Mobility and cost and utility are the big reason smaller ships are favored over large ones. Look at frigs and cruisers they have a ship that can do whatever they want, probs, e-war, logi, dps. Battle ships? outside of a few cases its all dps and no one wants to lug around this slow ship gate to gate just for the dps they could get from two cruisers at well under 1/2 the cost.(hell when you take out the mobility issues suddenly you do see more BBs in the fleet just look at blops gangs). Battleships are still used in large fleets where alpha is king but most fights in eve are on the small side and BBs are just not meant for that.

C: do you not understand how application works for missiles vs turrets? if your expl rad is bigger than their sig no matter how fast or slow the target is going they will take reduced damage. so a torpedo will never do 100% to even a cruiser. Turrets the angular velocity is more important and even if their sig is smaller than your sig res(now it always will be) so long as the target has 0 velocity relative to you you can deal 100% of your damage. this is why missiles got a rapid variant and turrets didn't
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#16 - 2016-09-02 05:59:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



A. those hips do have full DPS bonuses to the RML in the form of ROF in order to keep the bonus from affecting standard launchers as well.(with some exception)

Widow -> 5% rof (no range bonus)
typhoon -> 5% rof (no range)
tfi 7.5% to damage witch is exciting
sni 5% rof
Caracal 5% rof
orth 15% to damage and 200% to vel (50% reduced flight time)

this isn't even all but yeah they are soooo unbonused




some don't view ROF as a damage bonus. Always fun topic in ships and mods and in prior rebalance threads here. Wish you well on converting or showing them the light, many have tried and failed.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#17 - 2016-09-02 06:19:46 UTC
Also just wanted to add when it comes to hitting small ships grapple beams are king
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2016-09-02 09:24:07 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
You already have the fitting choices. You can choose to sacrifice your bonuses and DPS in exchange for some application. That's a choice. Like you said, these ships are specialized. You can't expect to ram some undersized weapon onto it and expect the same performance.

Firstly the undersized weapons already fit on the larger ships. The bonuses are arbitrarily removed which is stupid imo.

Why stupid?

Prop Mods - example Svipul with a cruiser MWD, cap stable and still able to fit weapons and mods, fastest cap stable ship in game at about 13km per second and 10 second align time. Frigates and Destroyers fitting cruiser sized prop mods. Cruisers and battlecruisers fitting battleship sized prop mods, Battleships restricted to be able to fit battleship sized prop mods or lower.

Shield Extenders - Frigates / Dessies fitting cruiser sized extenders, cruisers fitting battleship sized extenders. Battleships only able to fit battleship sized or lower extenders.

Armor Plates - Frigates Dessies fitting cruiser sized armor plates. Cruisers and battlecruisers fitting battleship sized armor plates. Battleships restricted to only fitting battleship sized armor plates or lower.


Subcaps
Best Damage Application: Frigates / Destroyers
Best Raw DPS: Battleships
Best Actual DPS: Frigates / Destroyers
Best Damage Mitigation: Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers with oversized AB
Best Raw EHP: Battleships
Best Actual EHP: Svipul Passive Tanked with oversized AB (+90% mitigation) @ 20k ehp * 9 = 180,000 EHP.

I could go on with the following but its pretty self explanatory:

Scan Res
Sig Radius
Align Time
.
.
.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2016-09-02 09:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
did you just use the power of a t3d to justify why these buff is a good thing??

also a few webs and suddenly that svip pops a rapier/Huginn or Hyena to slow them down and let a BB get ontop of it with a grapple and you can say by by. using the gal/minm logistic cruisers to give remote tracking buffs is also a strong way to help a BB

Eve is set up so that the larger the ship the more it relies on support. now i would agree that they are in a weak place but better application against small targets is not the best way to go about it. i would sooner see their damage raised letting them get 1k-1.3 on adv for t1 and 2k with a full DPS fit. this would not only help with low application so long as you had the support to help you hit but it would make them more useful against dreads and make it so bringing a two cruisers doesn't out match bringing a BB

also BBs were able to fit capital mods when they first came out with the new ones... it broke everything you had BBs with well over 1M EHP before heat

EDIT: the bonuses are not arbitrarily removed. they are removed for balance reasons . if i could get the same or more dps and application with a BB tank why would i fly a frigate or a cruiser ever again?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2016-09-02 10:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
did you just use the power of a t3d to justify why these buff is a good thing??

also a few webs and suddenly that svip pops a rapier/Huginn or Hyena to slow them down and let a BB get ontop of it with a grapple and you can say by by. using the gal/minm logistic cruisers to give remote tracking buffs is also a strong way to help a BB

Eve is set up so that the larger the ship the more it relies on support. now i would agree that they are in a weak place but better application against small targets is not the best way to go about it. i would sooner see their damage raised letting them get 1k-1.3 on adv for t1 and 2k with a full DPS fit. this would not only help with low application so long as you had the support to help you hit but it would make them more useful against dreads and make it so bringing a two cruisers doesn't out match bringing a BB

also BBs were able to fit capital mods when they first came out with the new ones... it broke everything you had BBs with well over 1M EHP before heat

EDIT: the bonuses are not arbitrarily removed. they are removed for balance reasons . if i could get the same or more dps and application with a BB tank why would i fly a frigate or a cruiser ever again?

No I used the Svipul as an extreme example of smaller ships fitting larger ships mods. It only works from small to larger. Bigger ships can't fit smaller ships mods to get an advantage like small ships can. Svipuls are not the only small ships that can use oversized mods.

In regards to your "only need a few webs, or a Rapier / Huginn or Hyena". This demonstrates the disparity very well in my opinion.

I dont think anyone wants to see battleships fitting capital mods, which is why larger ships should be able to fit smaller ship weapons system without penalty the same one smaller ships fit larger ships mods.

What imbalance are you referring to? In my example of fitting rockets on a Typhoon, if they were bonused the Typhoon would go from 170dps to 230 dps. The typhoons explosion radius would make no difference to the smaller ships since rockets already hit for max on smaller ships.

I cannot see how that is more imbalanced than being able to fit a 1600mm plate on a cruiser, a 50mn MWD on a destroyer or a large shield extender on a T3.

Oh I forgot another system that was designed for battleships but which is used extremely well by smaller ships, Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones.

XL shield boosters, Large shield boosters can also be added to the list of oversized mods.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

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