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Now is probably a better time then ever to remove attributes/remaps
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Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-08-31 17:26:21 UTC
The attribute system is old, archaic, and restricts players for no good reason.

Get rid of it and make accounts passively generate free skillpoints like they did in DUST.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#2 - 2016-08-31 17:47:00 UTC
If I could put your character in a cargo container and bury it - I would.


Skilling now is a zillion times easier than it ever was. Put your feet up and enjoy the SP cake this game is providing you. Keep your mouth shut while it is full of said SP cake.
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-08-31 17:50:05 UTC
Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#4 - 2016-08-31 18:05:52 UTC
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.



I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that.

Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this!


(I know right!!)
Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
#5 - 2016-08-31 18:44:10 UTC
Massively agree - attributes are not fun.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#6 - 2016-08-31 18:50:47 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.



I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that.

Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this!


(I know right!!)


just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system.

in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain.

why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-08-31 19:47:27 UTC
Well it looks like we found that one guy who likes bad game design.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-08-31 23:24:54 UTC
Flat stats with +3's the first 9 months. Gets you a nice core char setup. You will be all over the first year. the flat stats cover this well imo. Doing pvp....run the 2 +3's for the skill in training to reduce costs.


Remap to taste after that.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2016-08-31 23:44:08 UTC
Yeay, more babies with a motorcycle license. What could go wrong??

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#10 - 2016-09-01 03:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
elitatwo wrote:
Yeay, more babies with a motorcycle license. What could go wrong??



That and I think they are thinking CCP will be generous here and give base attributes and a healthy dose of bonus points (for implants and to simulate remaps spacing) to base a new training speed on.


I don't see that. 3 points to current base start stats and call it done. 2 point for attribute implants using lowest one. 1 to be nice.

Reasons:

Not all use +4's and 5's. Not going to be a freebie. CCP bothered to split up set implants to be lg/mg/hg....lg +2 the lowest common denominator. And people have whined that even +3's for pvp expensive. So we will say not even +3 common,
so not getting this for free either.


Attribute gone....not all min maxed on remaps. Base stats with implants works well enough imo...1 point to be nice here.

Basically...yay for them the char is now flexible at +3 to base stat for training speed in new system. And...will have crap train times on the long 5's. This is where remaps make their money.


Inb4 it won't be +3....rarely is ccp nice here. We got lucky on learning skill removal. I have been burned more than helped on CCP readjustments tbh. Part of me is hoping I am wrong here. I'd love uber training boosts. Why I don't see the generosity. Malcanis' law....it have me bang out some pita cap level 5's so much faster. I'd get more from it than lower sp chars would. Many older players would really. We see the 5's even with remaps and +4's that still suck ass time wise.
Luscius Uta
#11 - 2016-09-01 07:46:51 UTC
I would not have anything against attributes if they were arranged more sensibly, so that, for example, all the industrial skills, including those for flying ships such as freighters and transports, would share the same primary and secondary attributes. But those ship skills share attributes with combat ship skills that industry-oriented characters don't need! The most extreme case is training for a FAX - you need INT/MEM remap to train support skills, then you need to remap to PER/WIL to train Logistics and FAX skills and remap back to INT/MEM for Capital module and Triage skills. One way to fix this is to remove attributes entirely. Another way is to rearrange skill attributes by application, rather than skill group.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#12 - 2016-09-01 15:39:56 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.



I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that.

Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this!


(I know right!!)


just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system.

in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain.

why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?




Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread...

Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-09-01 16:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.



I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that.

Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this!


(I know right!!)


just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system.

in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain.

why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?




Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread...

Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff.


Removal of attributes is not "just one more buff" it's a rework of a very limiting mechanic. That doesn't really add anything to progression other than an arbitrary limit on what you can train along with what
Tbh I would not so much remove attributes as I would remapping that way the learning imparts do have a place
Also when arguing try to avoid fallacies like slippery slope

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#14 - 2016-09-01 16:52:07 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
Lets get all moaning and crying over "consequences" and "decisions" in face of possible progress since no other arguments come up.



I'm pretty sure the OP is crying and moaning over the easiest skill acquisition system in MMO history isn't easy enough. Let's just focus on that.

Little known fact: If you subscription is up to date you can gain skill points for your Eve character while pooping and reading the paper every single morning you are alive! Your computer doesn't even have to be turned on to do this!


(I know right!!)


just because the current system is easy doesn't mean attributes are not a dumb system.

in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain.

why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?




Let me turn a time tested Eve phrase to fit this thread...

Just one more buff, one more buff and skill training will be OK..... just one more buff.


Removal of attributes is not "just one more buff" it's a rework of a very limiting mechanic. That doesn't really add anything to progression other than an arbitrary limit on what you can train along with what
Tbh I would not so much remove attributes as I would remapping that way the learning imparts do have a place
Also when arguing try to avoid fallacies like slippery slope



Fallacies... such as:

"ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain." - They aren't pushing you anywhere. CCP decides these things because it's their game. Training 'against the grain' is a choice and has pros and cons. Training at less than the optimal isn't a punishment - you can perceive is as a punishment and get your feelings all ouchy over it, but calling it a punishment....


"why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?" - arbitrarily declaring it should take the same amount of time to train a shield boosting toon as it does a shield mining toon... where is the fact or truth in that???

"You aquire SP while logged off and pooping".... oh wait, this one IS true
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2016-09-01 16:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain.

And the Attributes system limits you how exactly? I have not remapped my specs since early 2012 and have been training (Leadership skills included) with full Perc/some Mem with a partial set of +3s (Admittedly, I used +4s before I went into null sec because I could and it was actually beneficial). I have yet to feel limited or hampered in the ways I play this game. On the contrary, the attributes give me the opportunity to rise above my normal skill points accumulation in specific circumstances and train things faster on chars that are meant for a specific purpose. You cannot have that in a system without attributes or remaps unless you infuse cash into the system in addition to your subscription. I prefer the former rather than the latter system.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2016-09-01 17:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
in eve i would like to do what i want because i want to do it not because ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain.

And the Attributes system limits you how exactly? I have not remapped my specs since early 2012 and have been training (Leadership skills included) with full Perc/some Mem with a partial set of +3s (Admittedly, I used +4s before I went into null sec because I could and it was actually beneficial). I have yet to feel limited or hampered in the ways I play this game. On the contrary, the attributes give me the opportunity to rise above my normal skill points accumulation in specific circumstances and train things faster on chars that are meant for a specific purpose. You cannot have that in a system without attributes or remaps unless you infuse cash into the system in addition to your subscription. I prefer the former rather than the latter system.


didn't say limit i said push


and you can't train faster you can only train slower

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#17 - 2016-09-01 17:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not.
But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#18 - 2016-09-01 17:22:31 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

"ccp decided things fit into one box or another pushing me into training what they see as "like skills" and punishing me for training against the grain." - They aren't pushing you anywhere. CCP decides these things because it's their game. Training 'against the grain' is a choice and has pros and cons. Training at less than the optimal isn't a punishment - you can perceive is as a punishment and get your feelings all ouchy over it, but calling it a punishment....

except it is a punishment

"the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense."

buy going off attribute i get a penalty to how fast i gain sp

Quote:

"why should i be penalized more for wanting to train a shield boosting toon over some one who wants to train a shield mining toon?" - arbitrarily declaring it should take the same amount of time to train a shield boosting toon as it does a shield mining toon... where is the fact or truth in that???


i never said it should take as much time but why should i gain sp slower just because supporting a fleet interests me over mining.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2016-09-01 19:05:33 UTC
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:
EVE's attribute system is a bit strange, but strange isn't bad per se. I am not sure yet if I like it or not.
But I am sure making it like any generic MMO would be a mistake.



good thing using attributes to affect skills in some way is not a generic mmo trope

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#20 - 2016-09-01 23:37:43 UTC
Wait, so once upon a time this unknown (at the time) company call CCP thought they make a spaceship online game that could keep you busy for more than a decade and you had to decide what you wanted to do, so planning ahead a little was a good idea.

Now we are supposed to log on and fly all titans at once and yolo some null-thingy for CNN news on day 0.3??

Must be super difficult to comprehend level 1-5 zee end.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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