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Courior Contract Citidel Scam
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Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#21 - 2016-08-29 17:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Flora Fellflower wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Flora Fellflower wrote:
Changing the terms of the contract after its been accepted, as far as im aware, is not really somthing that has existed before. Not somthing that ive ever seen anyways.

The politics of nullsec dictate who can or cant dock. I reckon its very rare that a contract destined for a nullsec station gets locked out by the time it gets there because the sov holder was pulling a collateral scam.




The terms did not change, you still have to deliver the cargo to x location for y ISK or lose z ISK. That said, this is a stupid mechanic. It strongly discourages the use of courier contracts to citadels since any one of them could have their access closed off, which hurts everyone who uses them. With gank contracts there's counterplay such as taking an alternate route, subcontracting to an alt if it hasn't been double-wrapped, or fitting max tank with logi/jams and surviving. Once you're locked out of a citadel, game over.


Thank you for an intelligent answer.

Blocking access is changing the terms, of course it is! It should null/void the bloody contract. I docked at the citadel beforehand aswell, just to make sure I could. Who would be stupid enough to take a contract for somwhere they cant dock?

This is a ******* disgusting cheating piece of **** hole in the game which has cost me alot. Next time I log in its to sell my assets and donate my ISK to my corp. I wont be logging back in again after that.

I have to congratulate this citadel owner on a clever, but ultimately foolish use of this mechanic.
Someone who can put a few billion down on contract collateral can probably also put a few billion down on a mercenary contract to blow up this shiny building.

Edit: Come to think of it, that still is a broken mechanic. Alt + Astahus + two or three of those = insane profit.

A signature :o
Le Plebo
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#22 - 2016-08-30 01:55:28 UTC
lol get rekt nerd
Luscius Uta
#23 - 2016-08-30 09:53:57 UTC
Flora Fellflower wrote:


This is a ******* disgusting cheating piece of **** hole in the game which has cost me alot. Next time I log in its to sell my assets and donate my ISK to my corp. I wont be logging back in again after that.


If I were you, I would use that ISK to hire some mercs to blow up the citadel in question (you even posted in the right subforum for that)...but not everyone is as diabolically clever as me it seems

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#24 - 2016-08-30 16:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
You're not the firs person who has taken a crate of red herring to nowhere and lost a pile of space bucks. Courier Contracting, like pvp has a great many risks and nuances. Players get suckered every day. The problem in this case was your greed. You saw a way to a quick hauling score and ignored many possible bad outcomes.


You need to get your arms around the whole collateral thing in Eve. What it's for, what it does and so on. From this point on it is now perfectly clear that courier scamming is an option. Honestly, if you're still game for putting up billions in collateral, I have some hauling propositions for you. I'll even promise you have docking rights when you get to the destination. Though I doubt you'll make it.

Anyone can plastic wrap a small anti matter charge, label it as PLEX, The Pope or whatever and ask for zillions in collateral, then gank you in route. It's a scam of varying complexity. It ranges from the blind courier trip to a LS npc station that anyone can accept, to a minor confidence game (seems relevant to your case) where you get one or 2 cheap ones through as a setup to wonk you for a big score once you get comfortable hauling for me. I could honestly have you do legit hauling for me for our mutual benefit for a month and then wonk you for a quick score.

Courier contracts have no guarantees of safe passage, honorable interaction or docking access when you get there. I've never done them because Eve being Eve... why would I?

TL/DR You've been had, deal with it and possibly consider a profession that isn't based on trust in Eve.
Flora Fellflower
Wealthy Tax Fugitives
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#25 - 2016-08-31 17:45:53 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You're not the firs person who has taken a crate of red herring to nowhere and lost a pile of space bucks. Courier Contracting, like pvp has a great many risks and nuances. Players get suckered every day. The problem in this case was your greed. You saw a way to a quick hauling score and ignored many possible bad outcomes.


You need to get your arms around the whole collateral thing in Eve. What it's for, what it does and so on. From this point on it is now perfectly clear that courier scamming is an option. Honestly, if you're still game for putting up billions in collateral, I have some hauling propositions for you. I'll even promise you have docking rights when you get to the destination. Though I doubt you'll make it.

Anyone can plastic wrap a small anti matter charge, label it as PLEX, The Pope or whatever and ask for zillions in collateral, then gank you in route. It's a scam of varying complexity. It ranges from the blind courier trip to a LS npc station that anyone can accept, to a minor confidence game (seems relevant to your case) where you get one or 2 cheap ones through as a setup to wonk you for a big score once you get comfortable hauling for me. I could honestly have you do legit hauling for me for our mutual benefit for a month and then wonk you for a quick score.

Courier contracts have no guarantees of safe passage, honorable interaction or docking access when you get there. I've never done them because Eve being Eve... why would I?

TL/DR You've been had, deal with it and possibly consider a profession that isn't based on trust in Eve.


I think you are missing the point. This is not the normal hauling scam, whether a nullsec no access contract or a lowsec gank one. This is a nonsense, no make any sense, exploit, which seems to have just entered the game in a very recent patch.

The contract in question was clearly a dodgy one. I checked out the location to see if I could dock. Then I planned an odd route to best avoid any gate camp or ambush of any kind. And then finally I paid particular attention all along the route to MWD cloak warp off any gates which had suspicious activity. In the end none of this mattered, as completely unbeknownst to me, the contract issuer was able to literally just flick a switch mid contract and win the collateral.

I do dodgy contracts all the time, whats different about this one? Its a citadel, hmm, better check that I can dock first before excepting, nothing else really came to mind. IMO the idea that access could be blocked after accepting would be so far from my mind. Even if somone had of warned me I would have dismissed the idea as nonsense.

Ive been hauling for years in and out of null and have taken way bigger losses than this, but they were all in good fun, either a mistake I made or outsmarted or ganked in an excellently timed attack. Thats all fine. This isnt any of those things though, this is nonsense on the part of the people who make the game. People who are paid well to keep the game functional with decent parameters and a reasonably understandable rule set.

I hold no bad will toward the scammer, he/she is just playing the game. The game makers though, putting in a trapdoor like this, where somone can put up fraud contracts which are 100% doomed to fail and can then flick a switch and rob the victim blind of any amount of ISK. Its not even about the ISK, its the principle!

I keep reading that this issue will be fixed soon to allow delivery of the package via teathering or some sort. But really, its shoddy to have allowed it to be possible even in an intermediate period. Making citadel contracts private or corp/alliance only during this period would have been an easy way to avoid it.

Its a game breaking cheat. People wouldnt know about it if they didnt study the forums or read the patch notes with a magnyfying glass. In a game where so much is at stake, where so much thought has to be put into every step, to have the rug pulled out from under you like this, its totally unacceptable. As a paying customer who is leaving the game because of this, I feel its well within my right to have a ***** about it.

And ***** I will ;)
Thermal Damage
Star Nation
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2016-08-31 18:29:23 UTC
Space isn't all that friendly, is it?

I thought you were quitting anyway?

I was found guilty of Nitshe by the CoCaP
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#27 - 2016-09-01 01:17:23 UTC
Flora Fellflower wrote:
Just read another forum about this stuff, so to answer my own question;

Yes, docking rights can be removed after the accepting of the contract.

I conclude the following -

This is unbelievable bullshit of the highest order.

Its totally incompetent to have a dynamic i the game like this.


This is the basis of eve, scamming, griefing,etc. If you have enough isk, just get some mercs to take down the citadel.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#28 - 2016-09-01 03:51:00 UTC
If it's in the same region, there is a a counter:
Go to the destination station and dock. They can't kick you out as far as I know, only prevent you from docking.
Accept the contract.
Courier contract it to an alt. Scammer doesn't know to block the alt.
Alt delivers the box, you deliver the box which appears in your hangar.

A signature :o
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#29 - 2016-09-01 05:25:29 UTC
What a coincidence..I just so happen to know of a merc alliance that specializes in taking down citadels. Blink

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#30 - 2016-09-01 08:29:57 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
If it's in the same region, there is a a counter:
Go to the destination station and dock. They can't kick you out as far as I know, only prevent you from docking.
Accept the contract.
Courier contract it to an alt. Scammer doesn't know to block the alt.
Alt delivers the box, you deliver the box which appears in your hangar.

Flick the button from public to not so public...

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#31 - 2016-09-01 16:32:14 UTC
Flora Fellflower wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You're not the firs person who has taken a crate of red herring to nowhere and lost a pile of space bucks. Courier Contracting, like pvp has a great many risks and nuances. Players get suckered every day. The problem in this case was your greed. You saw a way to a quick hauling score and ignored many possible bad outcomes.


You need to get your arms around the whole collateral thing in Eve. What it's for, what it does and so on. From this point on it is now perfectly clear that courier scamming is an option. Honestly, if you're still game for putting up billions in collateral, I have some hauling propositions for you. I'll even promise you have docking rights when you get to the destination. Though I doubt you'll make it.

Anyone can plastic wrap a small anti matter charge, label it as PLEX, The Pope or whatever and ask for zillions in collateral, then gank you in route. It's a scam of varying complexity. It ranges from the blind courier trip to a LS npc station that anyone can accept, to a minor confidence game (seems relevant to your case) where you get one or 2 cheap ones through as a setup to wonk you for a big score once you get comfortable hauling for me. I could honestly have you do legit hauling for me for our mutual benefit for a month and then wonk you for a quick score.

Courier contracts have no guarantees of safe passage, honorable interaction or docking access when you get there. I've never done them because Eve being Eve... why would I?

TL/DR You've been had, deal with it and possibly consider a profession that isn't based on trust in Eve.


I think you are missing the point. This is not the normal hauling scam, whether a nullsec no access contract or a lowsec gank one. This is a nonsense, no make any sense, exploit, which seems to have just entered the game in a very recent patch.

The contract in question was clearly a dodgy one. I checked out the location to see if I could dock. Then I planned an odd route to best avoid any gate camp or ambush of any kind. And then finally I paid particular attention all along the route to MWD cloak warp off any gates which had suspicious activity. In the end none of this mattered, as completely unbeknownst to me, the contract issuer was able to literally just flick a switch mid contract and win the collateral.

I do dodgy contracts all the time, whats different about this one? Its a citadel, hmm, better check that I can dock first before excepting, nothing else really came to mind. IMO the idea that access could be blocked after accepting would be so far from my mind. Even if somone had of warned me I would have dismissed the idea as nonsense.

Ive been hauling for years in and out of null and have taken way bigger losses than this, but they were all in good fun, either a mistake I made or outsmarted or ganked in an excellently timed attack. Thats all fine. This isnt any of those things though, this is nonsense on the part of the people who make the game. People who are paid well to keep the game functional with decent parameters and a reasonably understandable rule set.

I hold no bad will toward the scammer, he/she is just playing the game. The game makers though, putting in a trapdoor like this, where somone can put up fraud contracts which are 100% doomed to fail and can then flick a switch and rob the victim blind of any amount of ISK. Its not even about the ISK, its the principle!

I keep reading that this issue will be fixed soon to allow delivery of the package via teathering or some sort. But really, its shoddy to have allowed it to be possible even in an intermediate period. Making citadel contracts private or corp/alliance only during this period would have been an easy way to avoid it.

Its a game breaking cheat. People wouldnt know about it if they didnt study the forums or read the patch notes with a magnyfying glass. In a game where so much is at stake, where so much thought has to be put into every step, to have the rug pulled out from under you like this, its totally unacceptable. As a paying customer who is leaving the game because of this, I feel its well within my right to have a ***** about it.

And ***** I will ;)



It seems you considered everything and took the appropriate actions to avoid any issues.... except the one where they deny your docking rights. I don't want to sound harsh, but I see no real difference between locking you out after you accept the contract and ganking you on a LS gate enroute to the delivery. Both use available game mechanics. You not considering the docking rights change just means you were ganked w/out the normal level of violence.

Citadels are new and you got wonked by a new scam. Live and learn bub!
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2016-09-06 11:56:01 UTC
Flora Fellflower wrote:


I think you are missing the point. This is not the normal hauling scam, whether a nullsec no access contract or a lowsec gank one. This is a nonsense, no make any sense, exploit, which seems to have just entered the game in a very recent patch.

The contract in question was clearly a dodgy one. I checked out the location to see if I could dock. Then I planned an odd route to best avoid any gate camp or ambush of any kind. And then finally I paid particular attention all along the route to MWD cloak warp off any gates which had suspicious activity. In the end none of this mattered, as completely unbeknownst to me, the contract issuer was able to literally just flick a switch mid contract and win the collateral.

I do dodgy contracts all the time, whats different about this one? Its a citadel, hmm, better check that I can dock first before excepting, nothing else really came to mind. IMO the idea that access could be blocked after accepting would be so far from my mind. Even if somone had of warned me I would have dismissed the idea as nonsense.

Ive been hauling for years in and out of null and have taken way bigger losses than this, but they were all in good fun, either a mistake I made or outsmarted or ganked in an excellently timed attack. Thats all fine. This isnt any of those things though, this is nonsense on the part of the people who make the game. People who are paid well to keep the game functional with decent parameters and a reasonably understandable rule set.

I hold no bad will toward the scammer, he/she is just playing the game. The game makers though, putting in a trapdoor like this, where somone can put up fraud contracts which are 100% doomed to fail and can then flick a switch and rob the victim blind of any amount of ISK. Its not even about the ISK, its the principle!

I keep reading that this issue will be fixed soon to allow delivery of the package via teathering or some sort. But really, its shoddy to have allowed it to be possible even in an intermediate period. Making citadel contracts private or corp/alliance only during this period would have been an easy way to avoid it.

Its a game breaking cheat. People wouldnt know about it if they didnt study the forums or read the patch notes with a magnyfying glass. In a game where so much is at stake, where so much thought has to be put into every step, to have the rug pulled out from under you like this, its totally unacceptable. As a paying customer who is leaving the game because of this, I feel its well within my right to have a ***** about it.

And ***** I will ;)


No, it is not.

How is this any different from having docking rights to a nullsec station, only to have it revoked when trying to deliver something there?

You could just as well be in a station and having docking rights one second, only to undock and come back a few minutes later and find out that you cannot dock anymore.

Do we consider this a scam? of course not.

The question you have to ask yourself, is:
a) did I know that Citadels can revoke docking rights, and
b) did I know that the contract was to/from a citadel.

I think we both know that the answer to both of those questions is "yes, I did", which means that you accepted this contract at your own risk, with full knowledge that you can have your docking rights revoked, and that you needed to get to that citadel in order to complete the courier contract.

This is no different than nullsec stations.
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