Intergalactic Summit

According to my understanding of scripture, God gave everything to the Amarr, tasking them with the Reclamation. You can think of it as a test for them. In essence, it's taking a backseat and watching its chosen people's performance.

Oh, this should be fun!

So-- minor disclaimer before I say anything more: I'm not Amarr. (My own beliefs differ kind of a lot. I personally don't actually believe in free will, for example. I'm aware this is considered a strange belief almost everywhere.) Learning about the Amarr, and their beliefs, are major reasons I'm here, but-- in this way, I'm just a student. So if an Amarrian contradicts something I say, you should probably listen to them, instead.

This is a good opportunity to see whether I've been able to wrap my head around Amarrian theology to any meaningful degree, though, so I'll go ahead and see if I can get this right, and just ask the Amarr to please correct me when I'm wrong.

This broad topic is called the "problem of evil," and it's a really old, stubborn subject-- the sort of thing theological scholars discuss (and maybe sometimes lose their faith over).

The basic problem is: if we posit an all-powerful, all-knowing, and wholly benevolent deity-- omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent-- and then compare what we expect of such a being with the state of the world, incongruities emerge. The world can be very cruel: what is all but universally recognized as "good" is not necessarily rewarded; wickedness is not necessarily punished. Often it seems to be just the opposite. The product is great and lasting harm.

Why would God let the world suffer in this way? Does God not see the cruelty, or know how to stop it? Is He incapable of stopping it? Or does He just ... not care?

There are several possible answers, which, I guess, you can kind of mix and match (a lot of them seem to work in concert).

• Free will - a human is a being capable of making choices, and God will not stand in the way of humanity reshaping the world according to that will. If there is a being, or beings, weaker than God that seek to torment and trick humans into being cruel to one another or turning away from God, God allows them to act so that humanity will be free to choose between truth and falsehood. He hopes we will choose to be good, but will not steal or limit our capacity for choice.


• Limited involvement (or, "omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and distant") - God set the world in motion, and occasionally gives it a nudge in some way (to keep us from wholly drowning in our own corruption, say), but mostly He remains remote from it all and lets it tick along without His constant interference.


• A higher plan - the petty evils we do to each other, or which circumstance and nature inflict on us, are part of a progression towards something better. In the end, it will all be worthwhile.


• Judged hereafter - this is a fallen world, an imperfect world where human beings are free to act. We will be judged on those actions after our souls pass upon our deaths. A greedy or cruel person who causes great harm for his own benefit or amusement will be punished for that harm-- if not by humanity, then by a judge who has perfect knowledge of all that is done in this world, and the reasons for it.


• The vale of tears - the world, and its troubles, exist specifically as a test for humanity; those who give in to sin and doubt, fail the test. (This differs from "judged hereafter" mostly in that the world need not specifically be a test to invoke judgment.)

Those are the responses that immediately come to mind. I'm getting a little tired, though, so I've likely missed something.

While i am Directrix of SFRIM, I am admittedly not a Theologian, and.. frankly the theological issues identified in this thread have been the source of discussion for millenia among the Faithful.

There's a lot of different strands of thought floating out there even among the Theology Council which tends to be restrained as to where firm pronouncements are given, but many of the ones Ms. Jenneth identified do have a basis in the better known parts of the Scriptures (the Scriptures themselves are, surprisingly enough to most outsiders comprised of so many pages and words that even if one lined up all the words of the IGS from beginning to end, you'd only have a fraction of the scriptures...)

As Ms. Jenneth rightfully acknowledges, a lot of the themes and issues are intertwined.

Still.. maybe some Scripture cites might shed light on Amarr thinking. Here's some pertinent cites (out of many, to be honest, but there are character limits to posting on the iGS...) I'll leave the exegesis for those better able to explain than I!


People have a choice to embrace God or turn away.

"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy.
But those who turn away from his light,
And reject his true word
Shall be struck down by his wrath
For we are his retribution incarnate
His Angels of Vengeance"
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45


While some Amarr, like me, believe in the active presence of a Living God, there is a strain of thought also founded in scripture, that the Universe is in motion and it is up to the Amarr to move things along...

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21


The Amarr, of course, believe God has a plan and the Amarr are the Chosen -

"Here we are.
This is the world of God.
We are his chosen ones.
This place, this planet of peace and abundance, he made for us. It's ours for the taking.
There will be obstacles and difficulties. That's his test. We must make his gift deserving.
This beginning.
This birth of life.
This dawn of greatness.
We can not fail, for we have the Emperor to lead us and destiny to follow."
- The Scriptures, Second Letter of St. Junip of Aerui


God will eventually come and judge the pure and the unworthy -

"Casting his sight on his realm, the Lord witnessed
The cascade of evil, the torrents of war.
Burning with wrath, He stepped
down from the Heavens
To judge the unworthy,
To redeem the pure."
- The Scriptures, Book II, Revelations 2:12


The difficulties in life, the hardships, shape people to their foundations and allow them freedom to grow close to God.

"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5

Firstly, nowhere in the Scriptures is God described as omnibenevolent. He is described as JUST.

• "The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited." -Book I
• "The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood." -Book II
• "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger / All of his fury and rage. / He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" -Book II
• "Casting his sight on his realm, the Lord witnessed / The cascade of evil, the torrents of war. / Burning with wrath, He stepped
down from the Heavens / To judge the unworthy, / To redeem the pure." -Book II

• "There will be neither compassion nor mercy; / Nor peace, nor solace / For those who bear witness to these Signs / And still do not believe." -Book of Reclaiming. (Also, my favorite one.)

I trust I don't need to continue on this vein.

However, because God is just, he is also merciful. It would be unjust if I took a small child and expected her to be able to fly a ship like I do, or similarly, be as moral a person as an adult. She has not had the benefit of a complete education in morality, yet.

• "And those who embrace His love / Shall be saved by His grace" - Book of Reclaiming (Still my favorite.)
• "When thine heart shines with the Light, thou shalt know no hardship" -Book of Trials
• "One can repent and pray for forgiveness. / But true meekness is one that has penetrated and laid its roots in the very heart of a man." -Prophet Kuria
• "This place, this planet of peace and abundance, he made for us. It's ours for the taking. / There will be obstacles and difficulties. That's his test. We must make his gift deserving." -Saint Junip
• "For whosoever shall lay his life down for his Lord / He shall be taken into the arms of God" -Amarr Askura

God is merciful because He is just. Because He is just and merciful He does not micromanage our lives in the fashion of some sort of hologame--you know, the one with all the expansions to it.

I am not sure where you come to the conclusion that God's moral code is unpopular. It might be to you, but that's a pretty large generality for a debate. As far as it being unpopular to Amarr: there are trillions of faithful in the Empire. If God's moral code is unpopular, it's almost certainly because as imperfect humans we all enjoy sin and don't like being held accountable. However, we do know that we will be, which is what drives us to strive for perfection, even if we know we will fail to achieve it. God, in His mercy will see what is in our hearts and judge us accordingly.

Why do you all bother? You know he's just going to come up with another poorly-punctuated rebuttal that sounds like an edgy atheist Gallente teen trying to rebel against 'the man'.

I suppose you are better than I in this regard. I used to be like you three... convinced anyone could be won over with enough eloquence and reason, but no. Now I prepare Archons to be used on frigates when I get annoyed with the Minmatar filling local with the same arguments.

How people change.

I prefer to think that these educational comments serve as an immune booster for people that might come into contact with the infected. When you spot a human dumpster fire early on always try to hose down the surrounding area.

Oooooor, we could ... not, my lord? There's likely to be no one who wins a fight of that kind.

(I really hope you're joking but I've met way too many people in all four empires who aren't when they say things like that.)

This genocidal end as you put it can be avoided. Keep your religion in your borders and stop trying to indoctrinate your neighbors. Problem solved...

Welp....... Ya that's true, my bad.