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Re-Cloaking at Gates
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Lynn Amethyst
Noobs Collecttion
Fraternity.
#1 - 2016-08-29 22:51:31 UTC
Hi all,

I'm not exactly a new player per se but certainly quite new to blowing up other player's ships / getting blown up. (yea I'm the kind of player people generally hate, I'm not averse to fights but just struggle to fund myself for extended lengths of pvp)

While travelling through low-sec solo in a Falcon today, I encountered a gatecamp when jumping through a gate. I figured my fit didn't allow me to get back to the gate in one piece and decided to warp off. In between giving the warp command and the command to re-cloak, the T3 destroyer was able to lock onto me and I lost my ship in this unspectacular way (and also my pod for the first time because I dwelled over how he was able to do this too much and lost my reaction. That was my bad, the campers kindly suggested I could have at least saved my pod if I kept cool and prepared for my ship's destruction.)

Looking back on the events, maybe I shouldn't fly solo in a Falcon (certainly not through gatecamps), maybe I should have realised the gatecamp and simply avoided it but most importantly I was too confident I could cloak back in time against anything that wants to stop me otherwise.

From what I have already experienced. After I hit warp button, there is some delay before the server acknowledges the command, and before this happens I'll be unable to manually cloak back as the gate cloak will still be in effect (is that correct?). I also realise I can't spam the cloak command in the meantime as it will decloak me if it happens to be activated twice. So I was making a deliberate pause between giving the warp command and hitting the cloak again. That pause proved too much in this instance.

So after searching for existing answers on the forums, I would ask these questions

With a Svipul fitted to the extreme it takes about 0.8 seconds to get a lock on cruiser-sized targets (is that correct?). Would I have had a reliable way to re-cloak after gate cloak if he is hell-bent on scramming me? i.e. was the loss more about me making the wrong moves or getting into the wrong situation in the first place

What visual/aural feedback should I use (if any) to best cue/time the delay between the two commands (warp/align and cloak)? I realise this matter is complicated by the 1Hz server tick and would appreciate someone explaining the detailed exchange between client(s) and server in this instance (my ping to server is around 100ms).

Any comments would be appreciated
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2 - 2016-08-29 23:01:36 UTC
Watch the capacitor carefully, the second it drop's hit cloak.
The margin for error is suuuuuuuuuuuuuper slim with t3d's but with a bit of practice you should be able to get yer cloak on.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-08-30 00:52:51 UTC
As far as I understand remote sebos do not suffer diminishing returns. That means that a remote sensor boosted ship can get to nearly insta-lock. Also very fast ships can double click on you which gets them traveling to you so that they can de-cloak you. Further many players travel through low sec with stabs so it's not totally impossible for a boosted insta locking ship to have double faction scrams which means 6 total points.

As far as the cloak thing works the server works on 1 second server ticks. Which means you have to wait just barely more than one second before hitting cloak. My recommendation is to travel with your cloaky ship through high sec practicing the timing on hitting warp then cloak. You will get the feel for it. Like anything else practice makes perfect.

So there is nothing that you can do which guarantees that you will make it past a gate camp. The best that you can do is to learn as much as possible to increase your chances of success. Also the best way to make it past a gate camp is to not even run into it in the first place. Learn what intel tools that you have available to know or suspect where gate camps are or are likely to be. Again nothing is fool proof but the more you know the better off that you are.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
#4 - 2016-08-30 02:14:09 UTC
so if I'm cloaked and jump through, when that game voice says "Warp drive active".. if I click my cloak right at the first mention of Warp.. does that make a difference? just trying to figure out the mechanics myself too. that's how ive been doing it so far.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#5 - 2016-08-30 02:40:05 UTC
Roman Manowar wrote:
so if I'm cloaked and jump through, when that game voice says "Warp drive active".. if I click my cloak right at the first mention of Warp.. does that make a difference? just trying to figure out the mechanics myself too. that's how ive been doing it so far.

with rsebo t3d's/hics on gate you are talking about single server tic margins or error ,
if you try to cloak in the same tic you clicked warp you get the delay message.
the earliest feedback that this command has been processed is the warpdrive taking the cap out of the pool,
this is when you hit the cloak ,once.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Lynn Amethyst
Noobs Collecttion
Fraternity.
#6 - 2016-08-30 03:21:44 UTC
Thanks for all the advice, especially the cap check and RSB! I also never realised remote sensor booster isn't subject to stacking penalties (even when one person uses several on a colleague?), will definitely try this out with a friend.

As to understanding what really happens, I think I can understand the process a little better now. This is my take,

Victim under gate cloak sends warp command
Warp command reaches server (with delay)
Some time later...
Server ticks, acknowledges warp status, decloaking and cap use, distributes these information to local
Then:
-On the hunter's side,
Updated information reaches hunter (with delay)
Hunter sees victim on grid
Hunter reacts
Hunter frantically hits locks target
Lock command reaches server (with delay)
Server acknowledges command
[Locking duration]
Lock finishes and is acknowledged immediately (not subject to server tick) - A
[meanwhile]
-On the victim's side,
Updated information reaches victim (with delay)
Victim acknowledges cap use (among other things)
Victim reacts
Victim frantically hits cloak
Cloak command reaches server (with delay)
Server acknowledges cloak engaging immediately (This isn't subject to tick either right...?) - B

So with a T3D that can lock a foe in literally no time, whether A or B happens first will really be a result of which side reacts faster? (and which side lives closer to London I guess... I think I may have an edge there!).

So the lesson would be, I have always heard people say instant re-cloak Is about the safest thing to do, had I knew it was still THIS dangerous I'd certainly had done much more practice.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#7 - 2016-08-30 03:30:25 UTC
you have 1 server tic to cloak as far as i am aware.
as i said , its literally the slimmest margin for error you can have in the game because the next tic is you locked.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-08-30 04:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
ergherhdfgh wrote:

As far as the cloak thing works the server works on 1 second server ticks. Which means you have to wait just barely more than one second before hitting cloak. My recommendation is to travel with your cloaky ship through high sec practicing the timing on hitting warp then cloak. You will get the feel for it. Like anything else practice makes perfect.


No you don't, you can broadcast multiple commands in a 1s tic, this is how the cloak/mwd trick functions/preheating functions etc (If you couldn't it would be impossible.)

You are not limited to one action/tick, this is literally a case of not mashing cloak fast enough.

If you want to make sure it doesn't happen again drag that object interaction pane down so the warp button is sitting above your cloak, I have noticed in this ONE case that clicking is better than F buttons.

Technically unless you get bad lag (Which can screw anyone) you cannot instalock someone doing a straight warp cloak. Both actions happen in a single tick. And an instalocking svipul can not lock faster than a 1.0 second tick.
Roman Manowar
House of Black Lanterns
#9 - 2016-08-30 04:19:46 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
you hit the cloak ,once.


I pictured you saying that in a Sean Connery voice from Red October. "One Ping Only" Pirate
Memphis Baas
#10 - 2016-08-30 12:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Server tick is 1 second. Everything gets processed and sent out in 1 second intervals.

Internet lag is 0.1 - 0.5 seconds, each way.

The fact that you have to turn off the gate invulnerability before you activate your cloak, and the fact that it forces you to be visible for at least 1 server tick, is an intended game mechanic. CCP have specifically made it like that, otherwise cov-ops cloaks would be too powerful with no counters.

Also you should know that gate-campers use the keyboard bindings, because it's faster:

- Ctrl-click on a ship in the overview starts a target lock. They don't have to visually see you in space, just see you appear in the overview.

- Double-click on a ship in the overview starts "approach target". Again, they don't have to see you in space, just in the overview.

- The two commands above can be combined into a very fast ctrl-triple-click, to lock you and approach you.

When you land on the other side of the gate, you'll be at about 15 km from the gate. An interceptor or other ship with MWD can cross 15km and get to your position very fast, a few seconds at the most.

You pop out and then try to cloak, and they try to lock you. If they lock you, you can't cloak. If you do manage to cloak and disappear, they are still moving at MWD speed towards your last known position, and if they get within 2.5 km of your cloaked ship you are de-cloaked by proximity.

So it's a race between your trying to cloak AND move away, and their trying to lock you and approach you.

Typically, only "travel fit" frigates that are extremely agile and fast moving win this race.

Normally, a gatecamp is several people who are trying to set a trap and catch solo players. It's a trap, so odds are against you, and it's 1 vs. many, so odds are against you. Most gatecamps are therefore successful.

EDIT: To clarify, trying to warp and cloak up with the cov-ops is usually a losing tactic in a gatecamp situation, because your ship will sit there trying to align for warp, so even if you cloak up, that interceptor will find you still in the same position. What you have to do is, you have to have your own MWD, so you can:

- cancel the gate invulnerability by clicking in some random direction away from the gate
- MWD on!
- cloak on!

This gives you the best chance to cloak up and have at least a little MWD speed to move your ship away from where you appeared, to dodge that interceptor. Of course, MWD makes you easier to be target locked. And if you're in a slow ship, it probably won't be sufficient to move you 2.5 km away. But it's worth a try.

Another thing to try is: you're in a Falcon. Try to jam their DPS ships, and then pretend you're mis-typing "got them!! jump the gate now!" into local instead of fleet. Again, worth a try.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#11 - 2016-08-30 15:49:50 UTC
I've had pretty good luck with sequencing. Will it beat an instalock? If the timing it right it should but I've also had failure of the game to respond to the keyboard commands successfully. Since I tend to use AB's instead of MWD's, I have to start the engines which breaks my cloak. So I hit "+" then the F-Key for my AB, then the F-Key for my Cloak. This activates my engines (kills my gate cloak), activates my Afterburner to give me 1 cycle of speed, and then my Cloak. I can do this all in about 1 - 1.5 seconds which should be under the tick count + lock time of a T3D unless it's boosted to insta-lock then I just have to hope they are slower on the uptake...

I haven't screwed it up YET in front of an quick/insta-locker but I'm sure I will someday and someone will be getting an Improved Cloak II module plus me on their killboard, it's inevitable.

Oh, the part I left out is you need to manually STEER your ship away from anything that might get to within 2500 meters of you or they'll decloak you. So you have to pilot properly after you cloak!

Don't bother doing this on larger ships unless they are covert ops fit. Large ships can't get out of the way of anything under cloak and they will decloak you eventually unless you get fantastically lucky or you aren't what they are looking for.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Zoltan Lazar
#12 - 2016-08-30 17:47:46 UTC
CCP should really just allow commands to be queued while cloaked, similar to being queued while a target locks. This would minimize the effects of lag, it's not really skill to get lucky with your click timings vs latency.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2016-08-31 13:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Trant
There is no such thing as an Insta-lock, so in theory it should always be possible to escape the lock attempt when in Covert Cloaked ship.

The issue is that many pilots panic when they jump into such a camp and they tend to hit the re-cloak button too fast. The cloak attempt fails because the server still thinks the gate cloak is in effect, but the graphics and other feedback are so poor that it isn't obvious. Next second you are pointed and dying and it is commmon to assume that you got pointed between the two cloaks when in fact your ship never tried to re-cloak and the fast locker actually took 2 seconds to acquire the lock.

There are two things you need to do to maximise your chances.

1. When you first jump into the camp, wait out your gate cloak timer for at least 55 seconds. The timer is visible in the top left corner of your screen, but not visible to the gate camper. This serves several purposes.
. The gate campers are overheating and their modules (SEBOs) are taking damage, so maximise that damage.
. In low sec, assuming your sec status is above -5.0 and you're not at war with them. They are going to be taking gate guns as soon as they engage, thus they will be aligned to something and gradually burning away from the gate.
. Doubt creeps into the gatecampers mind as to whether you actually jumped in.
. It take intense concentration on the part of the fast locker and that starts to wane at 40 seconds or so.
. Sometimes the cloak re-activation delay timer bugs and restarts after you have jumped.

The longer you wait, the more likely that when you do decloak, you'll do so at the same time the gatecamper is trying to stop his burn out, stop his overheating, checking his alts screen, asking questions of the scout or even just blinking and generally taking his eye and the mouse pointer off the bottom of the overview.

2. When you do hit align/warp, mentally or loudly count "one thousand" then hit cloak. Simple.

Don't look for any visual notification message, don't look for changes in your cap, don't look for the cloak graphic. The feedback is unreliable, can take 2 or 3 seconds and then you have to react after that.

You could still be unlucky, but 99% of the time you won't have any problems.

As to your other question, the Falcon is a lousy ship for solo PvP. Assuming you are not classing double boxing two accounts as solo PvP.
Cherri Minoa
Serendipity Technologies Inc
#14 - 2016-08-31 14:42:41 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
There is no such thing as an Insta-lock, so in theory it should always be possible to escape the lock attempt when in Covert Cloaked ship.

The issue is that many pilots panic when they jump into such a camp and they tend to hit the re-cloak button too fast. The cloak attempt fails because the server still thinks the gate cloak is in effect, but the graphics and other feedback are so poor that it isn't obvious. Next second you are pointed and dying and it is commmon to assume that you got pointed between the two cloaks when in fact your ship never tried to re-cloak and the fast locker actually took 2 seconds to acquire the lock.

There are two things you need to do to maximise your chances.

1. When you first jump into the camp, wait out your gate cloak timer for at least 55 seconds. The timer is visible in the top left corner of your screen, but not visible to the gate camper. This serves several purposes.
. The gate campers are overheating and their modules (SEBOs) are taking damage, so maximise that damage.
. In low sec, assuming your sec status is above -5.0 and you're not at war with them. They are going to be taking gate guns as soon as they engage, thus they will be aligned to something and gradually burning away from the gate.
. Doubt creeps into the gatecampers mind as to whether you actually jumped in.
. It take intense concentration on the part of the fast locker and that starts to wane at 40 seconds or so.
. Sometimes the cloak re-activation delay timer bugs and restarts after you have jumped.

The longer you wait, the more likely that when you do decloak, you'll do so at the same time the gatecamper is trying to stop his burn out, stop his overheating, checking his alts screen, asking questions of the scout or even just blinking and generally taking his eye and the mouse pointer off the bottom of the overview.

2. When you do hit align, mentally or loudly count "one thousand" then hit cloak. Simple.

Don't look for any visual notification message, don't look for changes in your cap, don't look for the cloak graphic. The feedback is unreliable, can take 2 or 3 seconds and then you have to react after that.

You could still be unlucky, but 99% of the time you won't have any problems.

As to your other question, the Falcon is a lousy ship for solo PvP. Assuming you are not classing double boxing two accounts as solo PvP.


As far as I am concerned this is the correct answer. Of course, lag, panic, clumsy fingers and pure bad luck can all play a part. But if everything goes right for you, and if there is no object within 2000m of you to prevent cloaking, your transition from gate cloak to ship cloak occurs before any ship, even a so called "insta-locker" can get a target lock on you.

As with all these things that require a cool head and correct timing, go somewhere quiet and practice it over and over and over again until it becomes automatic.

"If I had been censured every time I have run my ship, or fleets under my command, into great danger, I should have long ago been out of the Service" - Horatio Nelson
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#15 - 2016-08-31 15:35:07 UTC
Lynn Amethyst wrote:
had done much more practice.


Bingo. There's a difference between "yeahyeah, I've seen the video, I know how it works" and KNOWING it. Doing well in EVE comes from eliminating variables and KNOWING wtf you're doing.

In this case practise it dozens of times in different scenarios. Empty systems, busy systems, busy gates. Practise practise practise till you have the timing down to a point where you can do it in your sleep and pretty much on muscle memory. As stated above the trigger is the cap drop from initiating warp, don't wait for ship visual cues.
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#16 - 2016-08-31 16:32:46 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
- cancel the gate invulnerability by clicking in some random direction away from the gate
- MWD on!
- cloak on!

This gives you the best chance to cl


That's the wrong order. Cloak first, THEN hit MWD.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#17 - 2016-08-31 22:52:11 UTC
Reinhardt Kreiss wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
- cancel the gate invulnerability by clicking in some random direction away from the gate
- MWD on!
- cloak on!

This gives you the best chance to cl


That's the wrong order. Cloak first, THEN hit MWD.


Reinhardt, technically you are correct for the MWD Cloak trick, however, having done that order several times, I've had twice that the Propulsion fails to engage but at the very last second, you get less than 1/4 a cycle on the drive. If you do the order that Memphis says (it's also the one I use casually), you lose a little bit of engagement time on the cloak (slower) but it seems to be more reliable. You do the other order if you suspect that you are under the gaze of an insta-locker because failure in either sense is irrelevant at that point. If it screws up, you're either dead or in for a fight.

If you aren't under pressure then the other method is serviceable and a little less likely to get you killed by normal fast lockers, at least in my limited experience.

I have yet to find out why the modules don't want to play well together sometimes. I currently blame lag.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#18 - 2016-08-31 23:31:33 UTC
Keno Skir
#19 - 2016-09-01 05:33:54 UTC
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-09-01 09:23:54 UTC
Literally never been caught in a covert ops ship like this. Could be down to latency as I live less than 5 miles from the servers

Art of Explosions
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