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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#241 - 2016-08-29 19:44:22 UTC
Will the Titan Effect Generators affect everybody in range or just your fleet? If it is everyone (like wormhole effects) then it could be pretty powerful.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Damocles Orindus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2016-08-29 19:50:23 UTC
When CCP removed boosting Command ships from within POS shields, they specifically left Orca/Rorqual mining boosts out of that change due to the outcry and the expected population fleeing from EVE.

While it's important to get rid of off grid "Combat" boosting for reasons of bringing more players onto the battlefield for which they want, for some reason we now think the same issue faced during the last tweek to boosts is no longer going to massively impact the mining/industrial community in game and cause many industrialists to throw up their hands and log.

This change seems more motivated by a small gang, ganker type developer that will now have a capital kill available in every mining anom they warp to. The supposed "olive branch" is that the Rorqual will have a "slow death" button that means not everything will die immediately as the fleet is bubbled and the Rorqual dies... then the fleet dies. What a big bonus. Roll

This change to Mining Boost dynamics has no positive benefit to Nullsec industry and was likely not put forth by anyone with serious industrial experience but instead someone who wanted shinier kill mails while miner ganking.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2016-08-29 19:53:20 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Will the Titan Effect Generators affect everybody in range or just your fleet? If it is everyone (like wormhole effects) then it could be pretty powerful.


From the dev blog:

"Unlike Command Bursts, Effect Generators impact ALL ships within their defined area (friend or foe)."
Ristari
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2016-08-29 20:00:27 UTC
Getting boosts on grid is a good thing, but do we really need to have 3 separate (and very SP intensive) skills for increasing burst radius? 5,376,000 SP in this alone, which would be just about 3 times the amount you put into range support skills for EW.

Considering the skills changed from giving you the ability to boost larger groups to a range increase that even small scale boosters will want, I'd say do away with the fleet command skill, and just have its benefits applied to the remaining two skills.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2016-08-29 20:00:59 UTC
Damocles Orindus wrote:
When CCP removed boosting Command ships from within POS shields, they specifically left Orca/Rorqual mining boosts out of that change due to the outcry and the expected population fleeing from EVE.

While it's important to get rid of off grid "Combat" boosting for reasons of bringing more players onto the battlefield for which they want, for some reason we now think the same issue faced during the last tweek to boosts is no longer going to massively impact the mining/industrial community in game and cause many industrialists to throw up their hands and log.

This change seems more motivated by a small gang, ganker type developer that will now have a capital kill available in every mining anom they warp to. The supposed "olive branch" is that the Rorqual will have a "slow death" button that means not everything will die immediately as the fleet is bubbled and the Rorqual dies... then the fleet dies. What a big bonus. Roll

This change to Mining Boost dynamics has no positive benefit to Nullsec industry and was likely not put forth by anyone with serious industrial experience but instead someone who wanted shinier kill mails while miner ganking.



omg...i liked a goon post

what is the world coming to .....
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#246 - 2016-08-29 20:01:22 UTC
Damocles Orindus wrote:
When CCP removed boosting Command ships from within POS shields, they specifically left Orca/Rorqual mining boosts out of that change due to the outcry and the expected population fleeing from EVE.

While it's important to get rid of off grid "Combat" boosting for reasons of bringing more players onto the battlefield for which they want, for some reason we now think the same issue faced during the last tweek to boosts is no longer going to massively impact the mining/industrial community in game and cause many industrialists to throw up their hands and log.

This change seems more motivated by a small gang, ganker type developer that will now have a capital kill available in every mining anom they warp to. The supposed "olive branch" is that the Rorqual will have a "slow death" button that means not everything will die immediately as the fleet is bubbled and the Rorqual dies... then the fleet dies. What a big bonus. Roll

This change to Mining Boost dynamics has no positive benefit to Nullsec industry and was likely not put forth by anyone with serious industrial experience but instead someone who wanted shinier kill mails while miner ganking.

The Rorqual still receives better boosts outside of its siege mode than does the Orca.

Fit a Higgs rig to the Rorqual, drop it in a belt, and align out at 75% speed. You'll be outpaced by a snail, so you'll be able to stay in range of your mining fleet, and because you're aligned and most certainly not AFK, you can warp out just as soon as a hostile shows up in your system or intel channels.

I don't get all this "the Rorqual is dead" and "nullsec mining is dead" nonsense.

It's Risk vs. Reward: If you want the best reward, you need to put up the most risks, and just like pretty much everything else in EVE, the risk goes up significantly faster than the reward (which goes along with the absolute best mining buffs require you to lock yourself down for five minutes).

The only reason nullsec mining would die is if the putzes refuse to change their methods and refuse to look beyond their noses.

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Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#247 - 2016-08-29 20:01:29 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Will the Titan Effect Generators affect everybody in range or just your fleet? If it is everyone (like wormhole effects) then it could be pretty powerful.


From the dev blog:

"Unlike Command Bursts, Effect Generators impact ALL ships within their defined area (friend or foe)."



so that means you're boosting everyone?? or shall i say... errrrrrrybody near you will get impacted by boost rings?

im simply amazed at the thought process this took and how incredibly their blogs makes things even more confusing to even understand.. no wonder they wait forever to release a dev blog these days. it hurts my head to think what the fawk are they saying?
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#248 - 2016-08-29 20:01:32 UTC
Damocles Orindus wrote:
When CCP removed boosting Command ships from within POS shields, they specifically left Orca/Rorqual mining boosts out of that change due to the outcry and the expected population fleeing from EVE.

While it's important to get rid of off grid "Combat" boosting for reasons of bringing more players onto the battlefield for which they want, for some reason we now think the same issue faced during the last tweek to boosts is no longer going to massively impact the mining/industrial community in game and cause many industrialists to throw up their hands and log.

This change seems more motivated by a small gang, ganker type developer that will now have a capital kill available in every mining anom they warp to. The supposed "olive branch" is that the Rorqual will have a "slow death" button that means not everything will die immediately as the fleet is bubbled and the Rorqual dies... then the fleet dies. What a big bonus. Roll

This change to Mining Boost dynamics has no positive benefit to Nullsec industry and was likely not put forth by anyone with serious industrial experience but instead someone who wanted shinier kill mails while miner ganking.


It's mechanical. Keeping in current OGB for mining means that all the code for OGB and their relation to fleets/wings/squads has to stay in AND those corresponding skills must maintain their current use as well as the corresponding modules. That makes no sense from a game design and coding perspective.

The positive effect depends on your perspective. You may not view it as positive that your invulnerable bonuses are coming to an end, but the overall game health could certainly be positively impacted by 1) content creation resulting from boosting ships being on grid. 2) competitive advantages from groups that refuse to use on grid boots vs. other groups that do. You do not have to give kill mails by simply not risking your ships but then you also lose the advantage those boosts provide. Contrast this with the current environment where basically everyone has mining boosts offering no gameplay distinction at all and tell me what the true value is there?
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#249 - 2016-08-29 20:02:16 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Looks really good, with one extremely glaring exception.

What was the justification for reducing Command Ships from three Links to two, other than forcing gangs to bring multiples?

Or was this just a typo?


Yeah, that is the main thing I'm kinda "eh" about... that means that all command ships will have 2 links by default and with 1 "command processor" rig 3 links and with 2 "command processor" rigs 4 links... and... command burst modules, I mean, not links. heh.

Though people will probably still call them links, really. or maybe "bursts".

Anyway... that means all command ships will be limited to 4 of the modules in their highslots no matter if they're 7 or 6 high slot ships... (really feel like a limit of 5 would be better than 4... 3 by default + 1 per each rig = 5 total max)... But it's very hard to react to this fully without knowing how the 8 command ships themselves will be changed and rebalanced (blog #3 will have more details on this, sounds like). I hope they have some major buffs to tank and damage/application to make up for the reduced amount of boosting each one can do + the whole needing to be on grid almost all the time part.

Though I DO look forward to no midslots taken up by command processors and no lowslots taken up by CPU modules bit that seems to be coming as well... the fitting costs for the new modules better either be low to begin with, or all (subcap) ships that can fit them should have role bonuses to reduce the fitting or something. The days of the 6 or 7 link booster will be dead, but at least the two rep-related links of both armor and shield are being condensed into one ammo type (that is good).
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#250 - 2016-08-29 20:11:08 UTC
Very happy to be back Smile

@lunettelulu7
Damocles Orindus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2016-08-29 20:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Damocles Orindus
Winter Archipelago wrote:

The Rorqual still receives better boosts outside of its siege mode than does the Orca.

Fit a Higgs rig to the Rorqual, drop it in a belt, and align out at 75% speed. You'll be outpaced by a snail, so you'll be able to stay in range of your mining fleet, and because you're aligned and most certainly not AFK, you can warp out just as soon as a hostile shows up in your system or intel channels.

I don't get all this "the Rorqual is dead" and "nullsec mining is dead" nonsense.

It's Risk vs. Reward: If you want the best reward, you need to put up the most risks, and just like pretty much everything else in EVE, the risk goes up significantly faster than the reward (which goes along with the absolute best mining buffs require you to lock yourself down for five minutes).

The only reason nullsec mining would die is if the putzes refuse to change their methods and refuse to look beyond their noses.


No. A perfect Orca booster out performs a perfect non-sieged Rorqual. Thus no point to run the Rorq unless you have a immobilized it and put it at significant risk for 5 mins.

If you don't understand the outcry, I guess the hold/cancellation on the last POS boosting changes escaped your attention.

I agree with additional risk vs. reward. They were talking about giving the Rorqual capital mining drones and that would be an incentive to get Rorqs into the belts. But that's and additional feature, not a replacement. They need to give the Rorq additional incentives to get them to come out. Not turn them into PVP/Defense death pinatas.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#252 - 2016-08-29 20:12:09 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Damocles Orindus wrote:
When CCP removed boosting Command ships from within POS shields, they specifically left Orca/Rorqual mining boosts out of that change due to the outcry and the expected population fleeing from EVE.

While it's important to get rid of off grid "Combat" boosting for reasons of bringing more players onto the battlefield for which they want, for some reason we now think the same issue faced during the last tweek to boosts is no longer going to massively impact the mining/industrial community in game and cause many industrialists to throw up their hands and log.

This change seems more motivated by a small gang, ganker type developer that will now have a capital kill available in every mining anom they warp to. The supposed "olive branch" is that the Rorqual will have a "slow death" button that means not everything will die immediately as the fleet is bubbled and the Rorqual dies... then the fleet dies. What a big bonus. Roll

This change to Mining Boost dynamics has no positive benefit to Nullsec industry and was likely not put forth by anyone with serious industrial experience but instead someone who wanted shinier kill mails while miner ganking.

The Rorqual still receives better boosts outside of its siege mode than does the Orca.

Fit a Higgs rig to the Rorqual, drop it in a belt, and align out at 75% speed. You'll be outpaced by a snail, so you'll be able to stay in range of your mining fleet, and because you're aligned and most certainly not AFK, you can warp out just as soon as a hostile shows up in your system or intel channels.

I don't get all this "the Rorqual is dead" and "nullsec mining is dead" nonsense.

It's Risk vs. Reward: If you want the best reward, you need to put up the most risks, and just like pretty much everything else in EVE, the risk goes up significantly faster than the reward (which goes along with the absolute best mining buffs require you to lock yourself down for five minutes).

The only reason nullsec mining would die is if the putzes refuse to change their methods and refuse to look beyond their noses.



Its too easy to kill a rorqual on grid.. especially with the use of cloaky campers in the system (which will spot the anon/belts) which simply could tell a friend to (drop drag bubble aligned to the station/citadel). needless to say the hotdroppers will easily jump in and tackle the ship with what ever they have so its dead in the water, meanwhile the pilot in a panick could hit is "captain savior mod" which locks him and all his miner buddies (ones who could have reshipped but no they're stuck like chuck as well) into place to provide even more supper for the ganking beasties....

this is just a bad idea, of course those will say join a greater alliance/coalition (which i think is the main agenda to force consolidation) but thats no longer making this side of the game a sandbox now is it? Null mining has standing fleets to defend its sov not miners 24/7 every ganker knows this, every camper knows this, everyone in null knows their miners most of them avoid pvp like the plague.. this entire motive came up by nothing but folks who want to kill miners and basically gank easy targets.

null mining is ruined, its totally ruined, plus what they did to the rorqual puts her even in a worse place than ever before.. they honestly think some funky looking miner-fighter drones plus this woooshaaa command burst boost crap will be enough to save her.. nooo not at all.. they just provided juicy targets for those with the end-game capital ships thats all.

a friend once chatted with me once and said "i wish they'd give the rorqual a weapon that if it was able to lock onto a cap ship it could suck it in and refine it in one cycle, that'll put fear into cap/super/titan pilots atleast!"...i think he's right, but of course fozzie would never do that cause it hurts his friends and makes too much risk vs reward balanced.
Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
#253 - 2016-08-29 20:17:41 UTC
My 2 Cents:

First - the orca has long been more then just a mining boosting ship. For instance, there has been or was considerable emergent game play centered around the use of hot swapping ships from orcas. So why limit the orca bonus to mining boosts? Why not make it more generic? The orca certainly would not supplant command ships since there are significant differences between the two, but by giving a more generic command ship like bonus to the orca, ccp would be encouraging emergent game play with the orca and certainly there is nothing wrong with encouraging the use of orcas in combat situations.

Second - the burst gives a weapons timer but does it also give a limited engagement timer? How does all of this interact with crime watch? If you are boosting and someone goes criminal will you get concorded? Will gate and station guns shoot you? Can other players shoot the booster?

Third - while the proposed method seems like a good thing from the perspective of fleet combat - it strikes me that this will have a negative effect on solo and ultra small grp play. Right now boosting is usually done by an alt - which a player pays a minimum of attention to. The boosting allows for force multipliers so that solo and very small grps can engage larger grps to greater effect. Now with a booster having to be actively on grid, it will be vastly more difficult for solo and small grps to juggle the boosting alt, reducing their effectiveness immensely. As a result where players in the past would have taken certain fights even though outnumber, they may very well pass up these fights in the future. In short, these changes reinforce blob size being the ultimate trump card in solo and micro small grp game play.

Finally - why does the orca not get a smaller version of the immunity burst that the roquel gets?
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2016-08-29 20:19:43 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Looks really good, with one extremely glaring exception.

What was the justification for reducing Command Ships from three Links to two, other than forcing gangs to bring multiples?

Or was this just a typo?


It's because two of the old link abilities for the Armor, Siege/Shield, and Informmation links has been combined into a single burst, meaning a new command ship with two bursts can provide the exact same kind of buffs as an old command ship with three links.

Eg, Damage Control and Rapid Repair link abilities are now provided by the Rapid Repair command burst on its own.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#255 - 2016-08-29 20:21:56 UTC
Damocles Orindus wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:

The Rorqual still receives better boosts outside of its siege mode than does the Orca.

Fit a Higgs rig to the Rorqual, drop it in a belt, and align out at 75% speed. You'll be outpaced by a snail, so you'll be able to stay in range of your mining fleet, and because you're aligned and most certainly not AFK, you can warp out just as soon as a hostile shows up in your system or intel channels.

I don't get all this "the Rorqual is dead" and "nullsec mining is dead" nonsense.

It's Risk vs. Reward: If you want the best reward, you need to put up the most risks, and just like pretty much everything else in EVE, the risk goes up significantly faster than the reward (which goes along with the absolute best mining buffs require you to lock yourself down for five minutes).

The only reason nullsec mining would die is if the putzes refuse to change their methods and refuse to look beyond their noses.


No. A perfect Orca booster out performs a perfect non-sieged Rorqual. Thus no point to run the Rorq unless you have a immobilized it and put it at significant risk for 5 mins.

Nope, check your maths.
A Nony Mouse
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#256 - 2016-08-29 20:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: A Nony Mouse
Ok, so the modules take ammo, how about making them some sort of "boost probe launchers", which can be fired at friendly fleet mates, or perhaps any lockable target (instant effect, so no travel time), and the range effect applies where the charge detonates rather than just around the command ship (perhaps two ammo types, local and remote versions, maybe with different strengths so remote are ~25%ish weaker).

This works as currently designed for bulky fleet combat, but for kiting doctrines, you don't need the boosts to keep up, for nano gangs, you can split up a little more. It allows you to apply buffs to brawlers orbiting a target at 500m, but still requires the command ship to be on grid and within target range.

It also allows for negative effects to be add which could be fired at opposing ships, and generally increases the activity and engagement of the booster while allowing for more interesting battles (who doesn't want a buffing/nerfing mage throwing spells around the battlefield in EVE, then if we could just carry swords and move this game planet-side...)

*That last comment was a joke, the rest of the proposal is serious
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#257 - 2016-08-29 20:22:35 UTC
Damocles Orindus wrote:

No. A perfect Orca booster out performs a perfect non-sieged Rorqual. Thus no point to run the Rorq unless you have a immobilized it and put it at significant risk for 5 mins.

If you don't understand the outcry, I guess the hold/cancellation on the last POS boosting changes escaped your attention.

That's the current set-up. Look over the dev blog again. The Orca is going to have a 3% per level base, the Rorqual will have a 4% per level base for mining and an additional 3% per level base for shields. Industrial Cores will then boost the Rorqual's boosts further (+25% for T1, +30% for T2).

In other words, the Rorqual is getting a 1% higher boost strength for mining over the Orca when not using its Core.

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Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#258 - 2016-08-29 20:27:54 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Will the Titan Effect Generators affect everybody in range or just your fleet? If it is everyone (like wormhole effects) then it could be pretty powerful.



both
big miker
Frogleap Factories
#259 - 2016-08-29 20:29:43 UTC
Awesome changes, I love it!

There's just one small concern I have about tech 3 Cruisers.
I have a feeling they can still be somewhat used safely.

Let's consider the Tengu for this example.

[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Prototype Hyperspatial Accelerator
Prototype Hyperspatial Accelerator
Co-Processor II
Inertial Stabilizers II

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
'Thurifer' Large Cap Battery
'Thurifer' Large Cap Battery
Cap Recharger II

Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment II
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II
[empty high slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]

Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
COMMAND RIG
COMMAND RIG

Tengu Defensive - Warfare Processor
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier

If you add mid-grade ascendacy implants to this fit it'll do 6.2 au/s.
Yeah that's all great and all but what's the issue with that?
Every 60 / 130 seconds you warp in the Tengu with a alt. You align out with the cloaking device running.
Deactivate cloaking device, hit link buffs and warp off to a safespot.

It's almost uncatchable since you'll be able to instantly warp it out after decloaking. Not to mention it's nullified so bubbles won't be a issue at all. Blog also mentioned link buffs will require alot of capacitor, which will be no problem for t3c at all ( yay cap battery's ).

I've got 2 proposals:
1: Proposal one is to make it impossible for tech 3 cruisers to use the nullification subsystem together with the warfare processor subsystem.
2: Penalize the link buff ship for 10 / 15 seconds not being able to warp.

Let me know what you guys think!
Other than that, very very stoked about the changes!!!

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Nano Naglfar!
Maekchu
Doomheim
#260 - 2016-08-29 20:31:04 UTC
Great stuff CCP. It took you long enough, but it really looks good. Thanks from all us true solo pilots out there!

And you gotta love the whine in here. The current boosting mechanics where ****, good riddance it's finally removed!