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Return all ships to at least 3.0 AU warp speed. Dev PLEASE read.
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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#101 - 2016-08-26 11:13:14 UTC
Hold on, when did the Chimera get shorter??

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2016-08-26 12:25:50 UTC
I could be wrong but I think Maraner is starting to take this personally. What's the matter? Shadow Cartel not able to put together a big enough blob to put together a battleship roam?


Or is it the prospect of just maybe not having enough batphone if you do get attacked?




You also keep mistakenly correlating the warp speed nerf as the reason people stopped using battleships, not the 'drop everything if it undocks' mentality that certain groups.... like Shadow Cartel.... have adopted, and refuse to 'fight' any other way. Why should people bring battle cruisers and battleships and the like when they know they're 10 man gang is just gonna get dropped by 40 mach's 18 guardians, 5 dreads, 2 carriers, 3 fax, and 2 supers?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Umino Iruka
#103 - 2016-08-26 18:44:57 UTC
Look...


The main issue here is that the current battleship meta is choking smaller pvp groups heavily - smaller groups who don't have 50 people on standby 24/7 so that they can all just fly swarms of T3 dessies or pirate/t2 frigates.

When it comes to small scale PvP and roams in general, you need fast response ships (they don't even have to be kitey) with enough dps to deal with fights before you get blobbed - something battleships are very capable of doing (including being able to take a hit) except they are too slow to get there in time to be of any use.

So, in order to fix that, you HAVE to fit two T2 hyperspatial rigs to achieve 3AU/s warp speed and what ever agility mods are needed to cut your align time to 8 seconds or preferably less - which is basically trying to turn every battleship in the game into a Machariel...of course, if you do that on an actual Machariel, you get 4.5AU/s speed before any implants....

Slow align and warp speed is also plaguing most battlecruisers which are faster than t1 battleships, but also have fewer fitting slots so it's pretty much the same thing fitting 2 hyperspatials on a BS and 1 hyperspatial on a BC in terms of fit gimping.

While I don't believe all battleships should be fast and agile like the Mach, I believe CCP should make further distinction between attack battleships and combat battleships - combat battleships staying slow as they are right now, but attack battleships gaining better agility and warp speed (notice I'm not asking for more sublight speed, only alignment and warp speed).

3.3AU/s for command ships
3AU/s for attack battlecruisers
2.75AU/s for marauders and blops
2.5AU/s for combat battlecruisers
2.5AU/s for attack battleships
2AU/s for combat battleships


The Machariel would still be king of the hill for kiting and warp speed and agility and hyperspatial rigs would still be a thing, but other battleships and battlecruisers whose ROLE is speed and firepower would have an easier time actually getting to a fight before it's already over.

Would be nice flying more than one ship and not feel like you're doing it wrong, right?
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2016-08-27 01:43:45 UTC
It's not really a problem for battleships to warp slowly. 2.4 au/s would be nice, but it isn't game breaking if they don't get changed. If you want to spend a little isk, two implants and a rig can give you cruiser warp speeds. MJDs, grapplers, and 3200s have gone a long way to making battleships much more powerful than they've been in a long time, and they need to have some downsides. I recently fitted up a nanopest and nanophoon with warp speed rigs and they performed admirably at separating the gangs I wanted to fight long enough for me to get a couple of good kills. Seems like working as intended to me.
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#105 - 2016-08-27 02:09:19 UTC
FT Cold wrote:
...seems like working as intended to me.

Your argument doesn't hold water though: MJD, Grapplers and 3200 Cap Boosters were all introduced quite late AFTER the BS nerf. If anything CCP keep adding stuff to make BS and BC more interesting hoping they won't have to touch at warp speeds. And while these modules give unique capabilities to these specific ships on a on-grid tactical level, it dont do a thing for actually moving the things around.

3200 fitting in Large Cap Boosters is aknowledged by CCP as being unintented, and they are letting it running to see what will happen with this. They don't do anything for BS that don't use them.

Grapplers are nice. But they replace a regular Web or another mod, so it is a trade-off, no gain for the ship class.

MJD are the same: Another trade-off mod, no gain for the class.

Implants/Rigs: Trade-off for something else. No gain for the ship class. Every time someone pop in and say: 'Just use implants, rigs and warp speed mods to make up for it' I laugh. Because you can apply that to ANY ship class, thus making it a no-gain solution for the Battlsehip and Battlecruiser class.

EDIT: CCP did a nice job giving CBC a ship class application bonuses. It helped the CBC actually being competitive against t1 cruisers.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#106 - 2016-08-27 03:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Infinity Ziona wrote:

(3) Largers ships are not good for local defense. When a fleet comes to your system nobody undocks a fleet of battleships, they may undock a fleet of Canes, or a fleet of Caracals or T3's or Svipul but its in no way a reflection of larger ships being awesome at home defense because they're generally not.



This, based on the more strict homes I have been in, could be a case of rapid response teams my not have the "sanctioned" fleet FC's on hand. Some places when it comes to bs and higher fleets get touchy about a more senior player taking charge...but not a "proper" FC.

Now before you comment about hac fleets and such...yes...it is a bit tarded. As in in the old day before even tiericide hac and BC pickup fleets (not planned by the powers that be at any rate) could have higher price tags than a BS based one.

One of the things that confused me when in 0.0. 10+ guys DIAF on hac roam...and it okay as long as none of the losses have wtf is that fits. Several BS' do this and its rabble rabble who organized this, where was the 5 paragraph order (military training thing for an any action), the support, the permission asked for...etc. basically wtf was this and don't do it again speech in TS time.

I recall one time long ago a bunch of us really got bored. Saw a dead pos and we said screw it, lets clean it out. Impromptu BS fleet, bashing to clear it. And was even interesting, by bash standards anyway. Slow night so you saw some things out of the usual run of the mill stuff. Even had some take their marauders to smash it since a slow night and skies clear for many many systems around. It was in our ratting mining area...we didn't even travel really to this pos.

Kind of cool since how often do you see torp golems used out of PVE. And this...this got the evil eye when an alliance leader logged in. WTF....stop this now. No ships lost, we took initiative and actually found people to drop their ratting without browbeating and threats...so I was going why the rants speech personally.

Hac roam gone sour for a flip side...and its oh well, what did you kill before you all died?
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#107 - 2016-08-27 11:35:39 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:
Look...


The main issue here is that the current battleship meta is choking smaller pvp groups heavily - smaller groups who don't have 50 people on standby 24/7 so that they can all just fly swarms of T3 dessies or pirate/t2 frigates.

When it comes to small scale PvP and roams in general, you need fast response ships (they don't even have to be kitey) with enough dps to deal with fights before you get blobbed - something battleships are very capable of doing (including being able to take a hit) except they are too slow to get there in time to be of any use.

So, in order to fix that, you HAVE to fit two T2 hyperspatial rigs to achieve 3AU/s warp speed and what ever agility mods are needed to cut your align time to 8 seconds or preferably less - which is basically trying to turn every battleship in the game into a Machariel...of course, if you do that on an actual Machariel, you get 4.5AU/s speed before any implants....

Slow align and warp speed is also plaguing most battlecruisers which are faster than t1 battleships, but also have fewer fitting slots so it's pretty much the same thing fitting 2 hyperspatials on a BS and 1 hyperspatial on a BC in terms of fit gimping.

While I don't believe all battleships should be fast and agile like the Mach, I believe CCP should make further distinction between attack battleships and combat battleships - combat battleships staying slow as they are right now, but attack battleships gaining better agility and warp speed (notice I'm not asking for more sublight speed, only alignment and warp speed).

3.3AU/s for command ships
3AU/s for attack battlecruisers
2.75AU/s for marauders and blops
2.5AU/s for combat battlecruisers
2.5AU/s for attack battleships
2AU/s for combat battleships


The Machariel would still be king of the hill for kiting and warp speed and agility and hyperspatial rigs would still be a thing, but other battleships and battlecruisers whose ROLE is speed and firepower would have an easier time actually getting to a fight before it's already over.

Would be nice flying more than one ship and not feel like you're doing it wrong, right?

I support this.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#108 - 2016-08-27 13:33:55 UTC
I would be for increasing warp speed. I dont spend $15 a month so i can watch warp animations. It also makes BC and BS less viable not because they are slower than everything else but because they are terribly slow. So i would be ok with adding the following to base warp speed:

Supers: .25 AU
Combat caps: .50 AU
Industrial caps: .75 AU

Battleships: 1.25 AU
Battlecruisers: 1.75 AU
Industrials( including mining ships): 2 AU
Cruisers: 2.25 AU
Destroyers: 3 AU
Frigates: 4 AU
Shuttles/pods: 5 AU.( they are basically all engines and life support)

So your battlecruiser would warp at 4.25, a cruiser at 5.25 and a interceptor at 12 AU
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#109 - 2016-08-27 19:49:22 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
I would be for increasing warp speed. I dont spend $15 a month so i can watch warp animations. It also makes BC and BS less viable not because they are slower than everything else but because they are terribly slow. So i would be ok with adding the following to base warp speed:

Supers: .25 AU
Combat caps: .50 AU
Industrial caps: .75 AU

Battleships: 1.25 AU
Battlecruisers: 1.75 AU
Industrials( including mining ships): 2 AU
Cruisers: 2.25 AU
Destroyers: 3 AU
Frigates: 4 AU
Shuttles/pods: 5 AU.( they are basically all engines and life support)

So your battlecruiser would warp at 4.25, a cruiser at 5.25 and a interceptor at 12 AU



As I said, you wind up making warp distances in systems pointless.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#110 - 2016-08-27 22:26:48 UTC
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
I would be for increasing warp speed. I dont spend $15 a month so i can watch warp animations. It also makes BC and BS less viable not because they are slower than everything else but because they are terribly slow. So i would be ok with adding the following to base warp speed:

Supers: .25 AU
Combat caps: .50 AU
Industrial caps: .75 AU

Battleships: 1.25 AU
Battlecruisers: 1.75 AU
Industrials( including mining ships): 2 AU
Cruisers: 2.25 AU
Destroyers: 3 AU
Frigates: 4 AU
Shuttles/pods: 5 AU.( they are basically all engines and life support)

So your battlecruiser would warp at 4.25, a cruiser at 5.25 and a interceptor at 12 AU

Your numbers are absolutely revolting.

Uminos suggestion is decent, yours is garbage and just makes everything worse by drawing ship types together.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2016-08-28 08:28:26 UTC
Volvo NH15 BP tanker road train like McLaren F1
lol
Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2016-08-28 08:36:32 UTC
If the ship is slower than other means that it has a great armor/cargo/firepower.
When the ship faster - speed requires sacrifice. Great sacrifice!
It is possible to think about making Minmatar ships more faster and more vulnerable. Basing on the ratio 20% faster = -30%EHP
For now speed is a key for a victory. It afflicts.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2016-08-28 08:56:50 UTC
Don't all minnie ships already have -30% EHP?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#114 - 2016-08-28 09:34:02 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Don't all minnie ships already have -30% EHP?


In rust we trust.
Maraner
The Executioners
#115 - 2016-08-28 22:50:07 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
I could be wrong but I think Maraner is starting to take this personally. What's the matter? Shadow Cartel not able to put together a big enough blob to put together a battleship roam?


Or is it the prospect of just maybe not having enough batphone if you do get attacked?




You also keep mistakenly correlating the warp speed nerf as the reason people stopped using battleships, not the 'drop everything if it undocks' mentality that certain groups.... like Shadow Cartel.... have adopted, and refuse to 'fight' any other way. Why should people bring battle cruisers and battleships and the like when they know they're 10 man gang is just gonna get dropped by 40 mach's 18 guardians, 5 dreads, 2 carriers, 3 fax, and 2 supers?




Blob formation not a problem thanks.

The whole point of the thread is a mild buff to BS and BC to enable small (or blob sized) gangs of the larger sub caps to roam further distances than they can at present without unacceptable (yes baltec1 ... unacceptable to me) compromise on rigs or implant sets.

That was all. Just asking for a small buff to the older t1 hulls in the game. You might just see more of them and less fleets of Machs around. There are some good suggestions coming out in the thread so I am glad it is still rolling on.
Maraner
The Executioners
#116 - 2016-08-28 22:53:17 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:
Look...


The main issue here is that the current battleship meta is choking smaller pvp groups heavily - smaller groups who don't have 50 people on standby 24/7 so that they can all just fly swarms of T3 dessies or pirate/t2 frigates.

When it comes to small scale PvP and roams in general, you need fast response ships (they don't even have to be kitey) with enough dps to deal with fights before you get blobbed - something battleships are very capable of doing (including being able to take a hit) except they are too slow to get there in time to be of any use.

So, in order to fix that, you HAVE to fit two T2 hyperspatial rigs to achieve 3AU/s warp speed and what ever agility mods are needed to cut your align time to 8 seconds or preferably less - which is basically trying to turn every battleship in the game into a Machariel...of course, if you do that on an actual Machariel, you get 4.5AU/s speed before any implants....

Slow align and warp speed is also plaguing most battlecruisers which are faster than t1 battleships, but also have fewer fitting slots so it's pretty much the same thing fitting 2 hyperspatials on a BS and 1 hyperspatial on a BC in terms of fit gimping.

While I don't believe all battleships should be fast and agile like the Mach, I believe CCP should make further distinction between attack battleships and combat battleships - combat battleships staying slow as they are right now, but attack battleships gaining better agility and warp speed (notice I'm not asking for more sublight speed, only alignment and warp speed).

3.3AU/s for command ships
3AU/s for attack battlecruisers
2.75AU/s for marauders and blops
2.5AU/s for combat battlecruisers
2.5AU/s for attack battleships
2AU/s for combat battleships


The Machariel would still be king of the hill for kiting and warp speed and agility and hyperspatial rigs would still be a thing, but other battleships and battlecruisers whose ROLE is speed and firepower would have an easier time actually getting to a fight before it's already over.

Would be nice flying more than one ship and not feel like you're doing it wrong, right?




That would be a reasonable and potentially interesting change to differentiate between the attack and combat BS. Would still like a bit more....just like my wife.
Voxinian
#117 - 2016-08-29 12:46:42 UTC
The only BS that needs to be more nimble and faster is the Barghest... as it suposed to be a 'fast' lightweight BS according to the description.