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CONCORD and the monopoly on Violence.
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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2016-08-26 11:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
It's okay. I like how your face even looks german.

Let's not forget that it's a heavy topic. :)

Though it's unavoidable people will see rl mirroring in it ...
... but that is simply unavoidable due to the nature of the topic.

It is not really heavy.
In fact, concord is really gentle with suicide gankers, because they only destroy your ship and not take you to prison.
The rl equivalent would be that after a robbery, while your suspicious looking friends take the loot to their home the police comes and destroys your weapon, and your clothes but lets you go home naked. Sounds crime promoting to me.

Is that not topic related enough for a reply?

What real life involves robbery between immortals flying spaceships?

The game is set 20000 years into the future. How do you know the reality of any of it?

Edit: CONCORD commit mass murder every time they kill anything bigger than a frigate. Crew die just the same from CONCORD as from anything else.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Goner Marok
Goner Temple
GONER PARADIGM
#42 - 2016-08-26 11:52:48 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
The lord is a tyrant who demands to be worshipped and demands that people deny their sexuality. He rules through fear, because when you don't follow the rules you'll suffer for eternity.

Your Lord is just another system of oppression where someone or some few stand at the top and rule over the bottom.

Oh, children.
He created us. He has the right to rule over us.
Btw. The eternal suffering is an invention of the catholic church(the first big fall from the true believe.) Like that trinity nonsense.

The holy book says: "God is love"
How could a loving God torture somebody for eternity, who commited sins for a few years, or has even lived 100 years of sins?
Answer: He would not.

The biggest punishment, God gives: is Death, the end of existence, the eternal sleep. No pain, no regret, just peace.

Amen
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-08-26 11:54:21 UTC
ahhhhhhhhh

you and your god are triggering me!!
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#44 - 2016-08-26 11:59:11 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
It's okay. I like how your face even looks german.

Let's not forget that it's a heavy topic. :)

Though it's unavoidable people will see rl mirroring in it ...
... but that is simply unavoidable due to the nature of the topic.

It is not really heavy.
In fact, concord is really gentle with suicide gankers, because they only destroy your ship and not take you to prison.
The rl equivalent would be that after a robbery, while your suspicious looking friends take the loot to their home the police comes and destroys your weapon, and your clothes but lets you go home naked. Sounds crime promoting to me.

Is that not topic related enough for a reply?

What real life involves robbery between immortals flying spaceships?

The game is set 20000 years into the future. How do you know the reality of any of it?

Edit: CONCORD commit mass murder every time they kill anything bigger than a frigate. Crew die just the same from CONCORD as from anything else.

I compared the spaceships ingame with the guns of today. And it is the pilot who commits the crime, who dooms his crew.
Btw. I think a crew that hires on a catalyst in Highsec is either sick of life or makes sure, the he/she gets to a rescuepod in time.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#45 - 2016-08-26 12:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
It's okay. I like how your face even looks german.

Let's not forget that it's a heavy topic. :)

Though it's unavoidable people will see rl mirroring in it ...
... but that is simply unavoidable due to the nature of the topic.

It is not really heavy.
In fact, concord is really gentle with suicide gankers, because they only destroy your ship and not take you to prison.
The rl equivalent would be that after a robbery, while your suspicious looking friends take the loot to their home the police comes and destroys your weapon, and your clothes but lets you go home naked. Sounds crime promoting to me.

Is that not topic related enough for a reply?

What real life involves robbery between immortals flying spaceships?

The game is set 20000 years into the future. How do you know the reality of any of it?

Edit: CONCORD commit mass murder every time they kill anything bigger than a frigate. Crew die just the same from CONCORD as from anything else.

I compared the spaceships ingame with the guns of today. And it is the pilot who commits the crime, who dooms his crew.
Btw. I think a crew that hires on a catalyst in Highsec is either sick of life or makes sure, the he/she gets to a rescuepod in time.

Then it isn't a RL equivalent. It doesn't exist.

Cherry picking bits and pieces just to fit a narrative you want to push isn't all that logical. Certainly not realistic.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Solecist Project
#46 - 2016-08-26 12:32:46 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

Then it isn't a RL equivalent. It doesn't exist.

Cherry picking bits and pieces just to fit a narrative you want to push isn't all that logical. Certainly not realistic.

i ignored his post, because it was off-topic. What he was talking about is what all these other threads are talking about and, if i may say so, rather small minded in comparison to what we are trying to tackle here.

Mark... when someone tells you it's a heavy topic ...
... and you respond with "not really" ...
... then you might, just might, have missed the point completely.

A "not really" just proves the point.
And the rest of your post shows that, so i choose to ignore it.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#47 - 2016-08-26 20:48:44 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

Then it isn't a RL equivalent. It doesn't exist.

Cherry picking bits and pieces just to fit a narrative you want to push isn't all that logical. Certainly not realistic.

i ignored his post, because it was off-topic. What he was talking about is what all these other threads are talking about and, if i may say so, rather small minded in comparison to what we are trying to tackle here.

Mark... when someone tells you it's a heavy topic ...
... and you respond with "not really" ...
... then you might, just might, have missed the point completely.

A "not really" just proves the point.
And the rest of your post shows that, so i choose to ignore it.

Ok, i give up. You win. Gf.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
Thin White Dude
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2016-08-26 21:23:05 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
[quote=Shae Tadaruwa][quote=Mark O'Helm][quote=Solecist Project]

There is an oppressive police force that maintains a monopoly on violence ...



Purely subjective. One man's oppressive is another man's sense of order.

I doubt you can have a monopoly on violence. Monopoly implies control of a commodity.
Solecist Project
#49 - 2016-08-26 21:35:02 UTC
Thin White Dude wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
[quote=Shae Tadaruwa][quote=Mark O'Helm][quote=Solecist Project]

There is an oppressive police force that maintains a monopoly on violence ...



Purely subjective. One man's oppressive is another man's sense of order.

I doubt you can have a monopoly on violence. Monopoly implies control of a commodity.

No, it's not.

For everyone inside a golden cage the cage is fine ...
... but that doesn't change that they're in a cage ...
... and that they've grown up in that cage.

Of course they'd like it.
What you're saying isn't an argument.

It's ignorance.

CONCORD has the monopoly on violence in highsec. No one else is allowed to ...
... unless it's consensual or for self defense. Every criminal activity is being punished through violence.

That this thought never crossed your mind changes zero about reality.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2016-08-26 22:06:17 UTC
Toobo wrote:


The same laws that protects a weak little boy from being violated by thugs on the street, the very same laws protect the weak and slimey old bastards to swim in their wealth and indulge in the products of blood from 'somewhere else', all the while the police being one phone call away from coming for their rescue should anyone tries to violence them.


The law does not protect anyone, it proscribes certain behaviors and prescribes punishment when you violate them. It is the threat of punishment that keeps the thugs at bay. Laws provide a disincentive. They are proactive.

What all this has to do with the game IDK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2016-08-26 22:18:24 UTC
Thin White Dude wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
[quote=Shae Tadaruwa][quote=Mark O'Helm][quote=Solecist Project]

There is an oppressive police force that maintains a monopoly on violence ...



Purely subjective. One man's oppressive is another man's sense of order.

I doubt you can have a monopoly on violence. Monopoly implies control of a commodity.


No, not at all.

Intellectual property (IP) law gives people monopoly power over ideas. If I come up with new idea on how to build a better battery and I secure the correct IP law I'll have a monopoly on it. So ideas can be monopolized.

And monopoly is usually the result of government which is considered to have the right to use violence against it's own citizens. So monopoly is itself the result of violence or the threat of violence.

Maintaining a monopoly without that threat has never been the case. For example, Standard Oil was not a monopoly. They never controlled the entire market for oil refining. Further, they did not behave as a monopolist in that the price went down in real terms, whereas an actual monopolist would raise the price. Output also went up, whereas with a monopolist output would go down (to get the price increase).

Standard example of monopolies these days are public utilities and their monopoly power is derived from government proclamation. And these firms are very heavily regulated. Also, as noted IP grants some degree of monopoly power as well.

Monopoly, in economics, is generally bad because it results in less output, less employment and higher prices and there are lost transactions (deadweight loss). There is nothing redeeming about monopoly.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2016-08-26 22:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Solecist Project wrote:


CONCORD has the monopoly on violence in highsec. No one else is allowed to ...
... unless it's consensual or for self defense. Every criminal activity is being punished through violence.

That this thought never crossed your mind changes zero about reality.


Not quite.

Everyone can engage in violence.

CONCORD also has the right to engage "law" breakers (i.e. those who engage in illegal combat)...but then so do the rest of us. If I am in a combat ship, see a guy shoot another ship illegally I am also free to engage that player prior to CONCORD showing up.

CONCORD is different in that they'll show up and use violence against any transgressor anywhere in HS, whereas other players may not nor are they obligated to.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Thin White Dude
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2016-08-26 22:23:09 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Thin White Dude wrote:
[quote=Solecist Project]
Purely subjective. One man's oppressive is another man's sense of order.

I doubt you can have a monopoly on violence. Monopoly implies control of a commodity.

No, it's not.

For everyone inside a golden cage the cage is fine ...
... but that doesn't change that they're in a cage ...
... and that they've grown up in that cage.

Of course they'd like it.
What you're saying isn't an argument.

It's ignorance.

CONCORD has the monopoly on violence in highsec. No one else is allowed to ...
... unless it's consensual or for self defense. Every criminal activity is being punished through violence.


Why does what I state have to be an argument? And how do you know what crossed my mind? Your assumptions are just that.


Anyone is allowed to be violent in highsec. There are simply consequences.

The Police, by definition, counter violence with violence. It's what they are paid to do.



Solecist Project
#54 - 2016-08-27 06:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Well, I guess all the intelligent responses have been made and no uncounterable counterpoints came up that weren't basically a variant of "i don't want that", or made by people not widely horizoned* enough to understand the topic.

There were actually quite the good posts!

I like it. ^_^



*(that's GOT to be a term, right?)

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Beta Maoye
#55 - 2016-08-27 08:07:19 UTC
Removing Concord will accelerate the declining number of onine players. The retention rate of new players is already bad enough. Now you want them to be harassed by gankers while they are trying hard to figure out what the hell is all these spreadsheets on screen? The natural response is to quit and uninstall the game.

The inflow of new players has been falling behind the outflow of old players for years. The game has no room for experiment. It has to survive first.
Solecist Project
#56 - 2016-08-27 08:13:38 UTC
It's always cute when the simpletons comment.

Thanks. :)

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Beta Maoye
#57 - 2016-08-27 08:23:11 UTC
I was not commenting your pseudo-intellectual opinions.
Solecist Project
#58 - 2016-08-27 08:32:03 UTC
I already saw that you don't understand the topic.

So instead you just parrot the same nonsense like the rest ...
... because you're one of those weak ones who are affected.

So, yeah, you're right... you would leave.
And you would take a bunch with you.

And the exaggeration regarding the amount just mirrors your fear.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#59 - 2016-08-27 11:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark O'Helm
Solecist Project wrote:
I already saw that you don't understand the topic.

So instead you just parrot the same nonsense like the rest ...
... because you're one of those weak ones who are affected.

So, yeah, you're right... you would leave.
And you would take a bunch with you.

And the exaggeration regarding the amount just mirrors your fear.

Ok, another route.

Maybe we all smallbrains do not get, what you really mean. And please excuse me, that i do not have read all your posts here, because maybe you have done it before but...

Please explain to us, how you would change the game, so it

1.fits your believes about law and violence
2.makes the game a fun experience for new players, who do not know anything, when they first log in
3.and also for more experienced players, who still wanne live in empire territory for roleplaying or other reasons
4.and so increases the playerbase to a healthy level(wich i would not dare to define), so that CCP has enough money and drive, to
improve the game more, by maybe even stronger listening to the players
5.and so makes the game last FOREVER! (Fist to the chest, one single tear leaves the eye)

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
Beta Maoye
#60 - 2016-08-27 11:13:36 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
I already saw that you don't understand the topic.

So instead you just parrot the same nonsense like the rest ...
... because you're one of those weak ones who are affected.

So, yeah, you're right... you would leave.
And you would take a bunch with you.

And the exaggeration regarding the amount just mirrors your fear.

Fear what? A game? Are you serious? One of fun factors playing EVE is that I could meet, in the cyberspace, some kinds of strange people I will never meet in real life. And I can even talk and exchange ideas with them. Hahahaha