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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Radial vs Angular

Author
Cuz Aumer
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2016-08-17 00:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Cuz Aumer
Ive been told keep Angular low, and radial high. I get Angular but radial confuses me, what is it?

Also any tips/ tricks for doing manual piloting right?
Sara Starbuck
Adamantine Creations
#2 - 2016-08-17 06:40:35 UTC
Cuz Aumer wrote:
Ive been told keep Angular low, and radial high. I get Angular but radial confuses me, what is it?

Also any tips/ tricks for doing manual piloting right?


Radial is the speed of how rapidly the other ship is closing or going away from you.

So if you arent moving and the other guy is burning 1000ms toward you, radial is -1000, if hes going away its 1000.
If you are moving toward him at 500ms and hes burning away from you at 1000ms radial is 1000-500.

If both of you are moving same direction at same speed, radial is 0 since your distance isnt changing.
Sometimes you want to know their actual velocities insted, since radial doesnt really tell you if they have ab/mwd if they are for example orbiting you which keeps radial small, while their actual velocity is high.
Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#3 - 2016-08-22 12:27:02 UTC
welp I'm not sure if my info on this is anyhow up to date, but when I was receiving basics pvp lessons from friend to years ago there were two speeds he mentioned: transversal and radial

radial being the one that matters for your turrets tracking speeds [mostly better hit ratio] and transversal being basically as Starbuck said " the speed of how rapidly the other ship is closing or going away from you.

So if you arent moving and the other guy is burning 1000ms toward you, radial is -1000, if hes going away its 1000.
If you are moving toward him at 500ms and hes burning away from you at 1000ms radial is 1000-500."

at leats thats how I understood it - but then I don't recall angular being separate speed, at least Tami never mentioned it in his classes....
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#4 - 2016-08-22 19:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Basically if you are having trouble hitting the enemy who is orbitting you - double click somewhere in the direction they are moving so that your "radial" velocity goes up (as they get closer to you) and the "angular" velocity goes *down*.

Additionally as their orbit attempts to correct for your intercept course - if you fly *away* from the course it sets, you can pull out of their desired range, further decreasing the "angular" velocity and keeping "radial" higher as you separate.

Finally as their orbit pulls a 180 degree turn and flies directly towards you to re-attain their desired range if you turn and fly directly towards them your *radial* velocity should approach your max speed + their max speed - while your *angular* velocity approaches 0.

At minimum this should guarantee that your guns hit (if you have the range of course) - and ideally you may land a warp scrambler on them as the distance between you rapidly shrinks - shutting down their MWD and allowing you to control range for the rest of the engagement and do with them as you please.


The "Angular" velocity is actually the only one that matters for gun tracking - "Radial" velocity is merely a useful related statistic that helps you in minimizing the "angular" velocity.


Also this is all from the point of view of the slower ship having trouble tracking a fast moving target - if you are the fast moving target trying to avoid being hit you want to avoid them doing this to you, naturally P


Happy murdering people TwistedPirate

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#5 - 2016-08-22 19:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
welp I'm not sure if my info on this is anyhow up to date, but when I was receiving basics pvp lessons from friend to years ago there were two speeds he mentioned: transversal and radial

radial being the one that matters for your turrets tracking speeds [mostly better hit ratio] and transversal being basically as Starbuck said " the speed of how rapidly the other ship is closing or going away from you.

So if you arent moving and the other guy is burning 1000ms toward you, radial is -1000, if hes going away its 1000.
If you are moving toward him at 500ms and hes burning away from you at 1000ms radial is 1000-500."

at leats thats how I understood it - but then I don't recall angular being separate speed, at least Tami never mentioned it in his classes....

Transversal = Angular - just different ways of displaying it, but weapon tracking (used to be) measured in rad/s, which is the unit for Angular velocity on your overview.

edit: Just FYI:
- Transversal is measured in Meters/Second - which is only really meaningful/useful if you combine it with the distance and do math.
- Angular Velocity is measured in Radians/Second - which is the literal *change in angle* per second.

For those familiar with the "degree" units of angle measurement, you know that turning in a full circle is a change of 360 degrees. Radians measure the exact same thing - but instead of a full circle being 360 degrees it is 2xPi Radians. So to convert from radians to degrees you would multiply by 360 and divide by 2xPi (either order you prefer in this case)... Fortunately this isn't needed in live combat - but if you are a math nerd you can have some fun doing the math as you go.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Andrea Cemenotar
Elena Minasse Operations
#6 - 2016-08-24 12:56:24 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
welp I'm not sure if my info on this is anyhow up to date, but when I was receiving basics pvp lessons from friend to years ago there were two speeds he mentioned: transversal and radial

radial being the one that matters for your turrets tracking speeds [mostly better hit ratio] and transversal being basically as Starbuck said " the speed of how rapidly the other ship is closing or going away from you.

So if you arent moving and the other guy is burning 1000ms toward you, radial is -1000, if hes going away its 1000.
If you are moving toward him at 500ms and hes burning away from you at 1000ms radial is 1000-500."

at leats thats how I understood it - but then I don't recall angular being separate speed, at least Tami never mentioned it in his classes....

Transversal = Angular - just different ways of displaying it, but weapon tracking (used to be) measured in rad/s, which is the unit for Angular velocity on your overview.

edit: Just FYI:
- Transversal is measured in Meters/Second - which is only really meaningful/useful if you combine it with the distance and do math.
- Angular Velocity is measured in Radians/Second - which is the literal *change in angle* per second.

For those familiar with the "degree" units of angle measurement, you know that turning in a full circle is a change of 360 degrees. Radians measure the exact same thing - but instead of a full circle being 360 degrees it is 2xPi Radians. So to convert from radians to degrees you would multiply by 360 and divide by 2xPi (either order you prefer in this case)... Fortunately this isn't needed in live combat - but if you are a math nerd you can have some fun doing the math as you go.


I now what degrees and rads are :P

on a good note missiles does not care about anything but your target speed and size :D

so if anyone else finds turrets mechanics confusing as well you can always switch :)

[personally I prefer missiles, because last time I was checking on the combat of ships of the same sizes and both turret based, maximingsing your outgoing damage will also maximise the damage from that foe to you (unless I got it terribly wrong)

while for missiels you can try minimising damage incoming without hampering your damage outgoing... and maximise damage outgoing without forcing yourself to eat more damage...
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#7 - 2016-08-24 13:03:48 UTC
Andrea Cemenotar wrote:
on a good note missiles does not care about anything but your target speed and size :D

so if anyone else finds turrets mechanics confusing as well you can always switch :)

[personally I prefer missiles, because last time I was checking on the combat of ships of the same sizes and both turret based, maximingsing your outgoing damage will also maximise the damage from that foe to you (unless I got it terribly wrong)

while for missiels you can try minimising damage incoming without hampering your damage outgoing... and maximise damage outgoing without forcing yourself to eat more damage...

There are advantages/disadvantages to both systems. Missiles tend to just deal less dps overall for example, regardless of how you fly.

These mechanics are useful when you fly the turreted ship and you need to swat the missile-boat fly buzzing around you - but can't match their speed to simply close range and apply tackle modules directly. The orbiting missile boat will apply as much dps as it is going to the entire time - but you'd be amazed what a few good solid hits from a high-damage turret system can do to most missile kiting ships (not to mention the ideal case of landing that magical scram/web).

As such - even if you are the missile ship that just wants to avoid taking damage - you would still be well advised to understand the mechanics involved so you can see when they start to use them against you and take steps to avoid auto-orbitting right into your own death.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#8 - 2016-08-24 20:12:38 UTC
Quote:
[personally I prefer missiles, because last time I was checking on the combat of ships of the same sizes and both turret based, maximingsing your outgoing damage will also maximise the damage from that foe to you (unless I got it terribly wrong)


That's the incredibly simplistic version, yes.

Yet some turrets track better than others, and some ships have tracking bonuses. By taking these factors into account you can better decide whether to bother attemping to mitigate damage or just face tanking your opponent and praying you win the dps race.

I had this perfectly demonstrated a few days ago fighting an active armour tanked Succubus in my shield buffer fit Succubus. I made the mistake of attempting to mitigate damage by orbiting until it became apparent my reduced DPS wouldn't kill him before he whittled away my shields. By turning away and applying full DPS, the tides quickly turned and a wrecking hit blew through his remaining armour and most of his structure to hand me the fight. It was my failure to account for the fact that he had a tracking bonus (yet taking my own into account, because derp) that led me to orbit, and once I realised my mistake things went a lot smoother.

Quote:
Also any tips/ tricks for doing manual piloting right?


Just that in a lot of situations, it's overrated. Doubly so if you're losing sight of other factors in an attempt to fly your ship well. The trick is knowing when to trust the game, and knowing when making a turn and in which direction will benefit you more than simply pressing a button and hoping the game knows what you want it to do.