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Stop the wars !!! I want to do my own thing !!!

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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#381 - 2016-08-16 14:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Dracvlad wrote:
If we could start to push something like that it would improve the game, but remember just dying without a kill is not going to do anything, that is why the OS was at least something.

That is why I recommend 15-20 minimum - because even with bare minimum skills that should put you up over the 1000 dps level - which means you can nuke even a tanky pirate cruiser in about 60 seconds, and you even stand a chance against light rr support - so this is the level at which I would be pretty confident of at least getting 1 worthwhile kill.

I dropped it to 10-15 per enemy in larger engagements as once the engagement scales up beyond a single target you don't need quite as much overwhelming dps *per target* - since you can focus everything on them 1 by 1 and work through them. Even 1-200 vs 10 you'll take heavy losses - but you stand a pretty good chance of actually *winning* that fight and holding the field to gather up the loot (which means you probably make a profit, honestly)

I definitely understand there is no fun in just losing...But if you can gather the people you really can deal damage - and once you deal damage to them and "win" the war...well...that makes it *fun* - at least for everyone I've ever met in EVE.


edit: and while 20 ships at bare minimum skills, which I'm calling ~50 dps each, is 1000 dps...
20 maxed out incursuses can deal 300 dps each - which would raise that up to 6000 dps...
So depending on your character ages involved your actual dps is probably somewhere in between those values.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#382 - 2016-08-16 14:26:05 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:

Haulers can bring increased risk and loss to directly increase profits but if AG start impacting gankers ability to gank it will allow more freighters to pass through and deliver cargo.


Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity.

Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#383 - 2016-08-16 14:29:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

Haulers can bring increased risk and loss to directly increase profits but if AG start impacting gankers ability to gank it will allow more freighters to pass through and deliver cargo.


Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity.

Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec.


That is only Red Frog data and as someone quite rightly pointed out on another thread their max collateral is 1bn, changes the dynamics a lot and makes them not representative of hisec hauling as a whole.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#384 - 2016-08-16 14:34:28 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


That is only Red Frog data and as someone quite rightly pointed out on another thread their max collateral is 1bn, changes the dynamics a lot and makes them not representative of hisec hauling as a whole.


Its data from several million gate jumps and they use the exact same rules, mechanics and tools available to everyone.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#385 - 2016-08-16 14:40:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


That is only Red Frog data and as someone quite rightly pointed out on another thread their max collateral is 1bn, changes the dynamics a lot and makes them not representative of hisec hauling as a whole.


Its data from several million gate jumps and they use the exact same rules, mechanics and tools available to everyone.



The value of the cargo is set to be unprofitable to gank, so therefore they are not representative of freighter ganking in hisec.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#386 - 2016-08-16 14:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
baltec1 wrote:
Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity.

Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec.

I'm not even disagreeing with your core point...but just for the record we determined it was a bit over a 0.25% chance of being ganked *per trip*. And CODE. freighter ganks are *not* funded by charity P

But yes, if you keep your cargo under 1 billion isk and just autopilot your freighter anywhere in high sec, you will only be ganked once every 400 trips or so.

edit: @ 1.5 billion isk per freighter - you basically lose 3.75 million isk per freighter load you move - quite manageable.

edit #2: OK @ 2.5 billion (since you'll get ganked while full) - that goes up to 6.25 million isk per freighter load you move - still manageable.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#387 - 2016-08-16 14:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip...

Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it.

This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips.

It also has the added bonus of making your trips go *much* faster than autopilotting.



And yes, I'm a math nerd P


edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#388 - 2016-08-16 15:11:22 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip...

Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it.

This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips.

It also has the added bonus of making your trips go *much* faster than autopilotting.

And yes, I'm a math nerd P

edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you.


However for 10bn they would step up to a blackbird which adds very little to their cost, say 15m and negate your webber.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#389 - 2016-08-16 15:16:15 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip...

Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it.

This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips.

It also has the added bonus of making your trips go *much* faster than autopilotting.

And yes, I'm a math nerd P

edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you.


However for 10bn they would step up to a blackbird which adds very little to their cost, say 15m and negate your webber.

True...but there is only around a 5 second window in which you are vulnerable with range bonused webs - so they would need pretty perfect timing.

Not saying it can't be done - but it is difficult - particularly if they are trying to coordinate it with a -10 pilot.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#390 - 2016-08-16 15:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
[However for 10bn they would step up to a blackbird which adds very little to their cost, say 15m and negate your webber.

True...but there is only around a 5 second window in which you are vulnerable with range bonused webs - so they would need pretty perfect timing.

Not saying it can't be done - but it is difficult - particularly if they are trying to coordinate it with a -10 pilot.


They don't tend to use a -10 character for it as they have to wait for the freighter to decloak. The thing is that a good bumper will get on a freighter after 5 seconds, the blackbird is set for instra lock on the freighter, so if will prevent the warp allowing the Macherial to get on it. People are better off doing 1bn loads like Red frog.

But you are correct the one thing making it so they don't do it as much as they would want is the fact that they cannot really do it with a character who will be jumped on by the faction police.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#391 - 2016-08-16 15:36:50 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

The value of the cargo is set to be unprofitable to gank, so therefore they are not representative of freighter ganking in hisec.


What mechanic stops everyone else from not stuffing more than a billion into their holds?
Sack o'Richards
Doomheim
#392 - 2016-08-16 15:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sack o'Richards
Dave Day wrote:


I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion?


I just gonna say it.

Why play a pvp game if you dont want to pvp? There is no aspect of EVE that is not enhanced by or dependant on pvp.
In EVE it's only worth having if it is worth fighting for.

There are a literal shitton of empire building sims out there. EVE is mmopvp.
Carebear elsewhere?
Solecist Project
#393 - 2016-08-16 16:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

The value of the cargo is set to be unprofitable to gank, so therefore they are not representative of freighter ganking in hisec.


What mechanic stops everyone else from not stuffing more than a billion into their holds?


Dracvlad, they are a part of it as much asthose who get ganked.
The only difference is that they do not get ganked, because they aren't doing stupid.

You can't just take a small portion and balance everything around them, insulting all those who aren't stupid.
Again real life is the same way. Because of one idiot falling off the bridge the bridge now needs safety even though it was fine before.

Is darwin in your mind an idiot? Do you understand evolution?

You're smarter than that, drac. Accept that people who lack self responsibility haveto suffer for it. Everything else leads into a big brother scenario where people are being more and more shielded and those who aren't idiots are suffering for it.

AND WORSE, the next generation grows up with the shielding, thinks it's normal and then demands even more shielding because they never learned to take care of themselves!

It is that simple! Nature worked like this for millions of years and only nowadays,
because of politics, things are changing towards the worst!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#394 - 2016-08-16 16:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Lets try and answer your point and see if you can stay reasonable, most times I reply to you, you start getting all HTFU. But this is a point that needs to be addressed.
You're right, it is a point that needs to be addressed, and I'll keep the conversation civil as long as you do too.

Quote:
I have noted a lot of good PvP players say jump into something cheap and go and kill them, however a good player can rip through them like a wolf among sheep. I have been in situations where I have destroyed multiple ships around me. Its a factor of having the right ship and them having poor DPS and poor tankls, add to that OGB and implants and drugs and you really can go to town on people. When mercs say jump into a T1 frig and fight they know that they will in the main kick their ass badly, but they can make mistakes or there can be enough with the right comp that can tip the balance. Most of the time it is a slaughter.
As Dirty Forum Alt pointed out, nobody is suggesting that people go one on one against mercs, that'd be insane.

The key words are working together, 20+ frigates can make one hell of a mess when used correctly and it's a tactic that has been used with great success in both nullsec and hisec, even more so with decent leadership. While I know that many of the targets of wardecs are far from having decent leadership where PvP is concerned, some of the merc community have shown in the past that they're more than willing to help those that help themselves, PIRAT found that out when they wardecced a well known streamers corp last year and ended up hiding in the Amarr Emperor station when faced with a rag tag fleet of newbies and bears under decent FCs.

Quote:
The other side of this is trying to catch the Svipuls and Cynabels used by the pipe campers. Yes I could catch them, however I have dealt with a lot of GTFO type ships picking off tackle in 0.0, it is very difficult to do against people who know what they are doing and to be honest it is annoying content because as soon as they see a risk they warp away, double down on that with most defenders being low SP PvP characters, what chance do they have.
While true that some of the ships used by campers are hard to catch especially in the hands of experienced players, low SP characters still have a chance when there's enough of them; once again the key words are working together.

Quote:
I have tried to push people to fight back, but the issue is that many people do not have the skills to do enough and my biggest issue was with vet players who just hate hisec war decs. Because I have actually tried to push people to develop a mentality to fight back I know that the majority have no interest on the current gameplay.
Some just don't want to PvP which is fine in itself, but at the end of the day Eve is a PvP game and they need to accept that PvP may happen to them regardless of what they want.

Quote:
One of the things that used to get people involved in even small 0.0 alliances was structure bashing, it develops an I can do attitude, something to break away from the there is no point attitude that most have in hisec. My suggestion is aimed to try that, it may not work but its is better than nothing and gives something back to the war dec entities so they don't all sink into blanket war decs.

You can of course start twisting what I said to meet your normal desire to attack me personally or you can think about it and push yourself to answer with reasons even if it is me, I have come across people that want to fight but don't feel they can, changing that mentality would be possible with that OS.
I've always maintained that the problem people have with PvP in hisec is more social than mechanical, and I still do. People are insular, they want to do their own thing and don't like being interfered with, unfortunately for them the nature of the game is that people will interfere with them and that can be somewhat of a shock to those that have come from other games that do have a PvE specific area.

An apparent unwillingness to work together or even ask those in the know how to deal with a wardec beyond not undocking for a week or complaining on the forums and reddit is not doing them any favours, they are seen as weak and thus easy meat; if they could overcome that unwillingness and work together to try and hit mercs where it hurts it would introduce their members to an aspect of the game that they may enjoy and if they do enjoy it may give them a core of people who are willing to engage in it next time it happens. It would also widen their social circles, which in turn leads to an exchange of knowledge and ideas in addition to opening up possibilities for the future.

Besides being a PvP game, Eve is also a social game, by not working with others against common foes people are gimping themselves and falling into the trap of believing they are powerless against mercs and gankers when the truth is that they're not; having enough friends to back you up is where the power to take on your foes comes from.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#395 - 2016-08-16 16:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Sack o'Richards wrote:
Dave Day wrote:


I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion?


I just gonna say it.

Why play a pvp game if you dont want to pvp? There is no aspect of EVE that is not enhanced by or dependant on pvp.
In EVE it's only worth having if it is worth fighting for.

There are a literal shitton of empire building sims out there. EVE is mmopvp.
Carebear elsewhere?
I don't willingly partake of traditional PvP, I actively avoid it but I acknowledge that Eve is a PvP game and that PvP may eventually find me.

They've got to catch me first though, if and when it does happen to me the people involved will get a GF in local or by mail if they manage to catch my pod (which would mean that I cocked up big style). I know of at least one merc that would love to have my corpse in his collection simply because he knows it would be hard to collect.
Big smile

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#396 - 2016-08-16 17:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Faylee Freir
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

Haulers can bring increased risk and loss to directly increase profits but if AG start impacting gankers ability to gank it will allow more freighters to pass through and deliver cargo.


Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity.

Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec.

Youre right. The days of CODE killing almost every freighter and Orca that passes through the pipe are dead with Loyal being banned. A lot of this is sensationalized fluff.

Edit: as a matter of fact, just throwing a general observation out there... More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks.

HTFU
Solecist Project
#397 - 2016-08-16 17:07:59 UTC
To be fair it always has been sensational fluff.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#398 - 2016-08-16 18:21:12 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks.


Always have.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#399 - 2016-08-16 18:26:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks.


Always have.

While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie...

A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#400 - 2016-08-16 18:34:47 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks.


Always have.

While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie...

A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters.


Most that die in highsec are killed in wars oddly enough