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The end of an era - the T3 nerf thread

Author
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2016-08-15 12:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Ed: I'm also apparently in the minority in that I don't mind T3s. They've expensive to fit correctly, have SP loss and are still nowhere near as ubiquitous as older "problem" hulls ever were. Something is always "best", these have decent trades imo. I've said it repeatedly before: If you nerf T3Cs the heavyweights are going to roll into command ships instead and then you'll have people moaning about them.

Cost is never a good balancing option. Especially now that SP loss (A bad mechanic to begin with that should have never been implemented as an excuse for OP ships) is simply a cost via skill injectors anyway.

Command ships come with a set of downsides, namely mobility problems. And baring one particular CS don't have the same sort of tank as a T3 in tank mode anyway (and that one has terrible DPS instead), especially once Sig is taken into account. So it's nowhere near as much of an issue if people jump into command ships instead of T3's.

Especially if T3's get put where they are meant to be which is versatile in space. The current subsystem arrangement does not create a versatile ship since it's so hard to refit in space. If the subsystems gave access to tactical modes, then you would be looking at a more suitable versatile in space ship, that should be between T1 & T2 at a particular role when in the right mode, at T1 power level when in the wrong mode, but since it can change modes it's more adaptable than any particular T2 to the current need. That is the slot CCP placed T3's in on their desired power/versatility chart. And still leaves reasons to fly a T3, but also to fly a T2.



You need to take a look at your command ship fittings, but you're missing my point. If T3s ceased to exist tomorrow, they could and would be replaced by command ships. People would STILL complain. Probably harder because a linked CS will push almost 200k EHP (more if blinged like all t3s, that's all T2 barring a single faction plate) and have and over 700 dps - all for less than a basic T3 cost (change out of 450m). Infinitely more replaceable. They'll not be as good, I am not disputing that. But for zero SP loss and literally half the price? Who cares!

What I am saying is that they will become the next top dog. Shall we clamour to nerf them too?

Ed: the exception are the bonused ewar effects, they cannot be replicated.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#62 - 2016-08-15 12:27:51 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You need to take a look at your command ship fittings, but you're missing my point. If T3s ceased to exist tomorrow, they could and would be replaced by command ships. People would STILL complain. Probably harder because a linked CS will push almost 200k EHP (more if blinged like all t3s, that's all T2 barring a single faction plate) and have and over 700 dps - all for less than a basic T3 cost (change out of 450m). Infinitely more replaceable. They'll not be as good, I am not disputing that. But for zero SP loss and literally half the price? Who cares!

What I am saying is that they will become the next top dog. Shall we clamour to nerf them too?



T3's are broken. NOT fixing them for the sake of 'what will people complain about next' doesn't stop them from being broken. Nothing else can be balanced properly until T3's are done. That's been the case since tiercide started.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Dethahal Khardula
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2016-08-15 12:32:18 UTC
also a thing to consider is that t3c are used for pve quite much. the more you nerf low/null/wh pve ships, the easier will it be to go to highsec incursions instead.

not that I do not want t3c to get nerfed, but it would have so many effects, especially on wh space
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#64 - 2016-08-15 12:32:21 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You need to take a look at your command ship fittings, but you're missing my point. If T3s ceased to exist tomorrow, they could and would be replaced by command ships. People would STILL complain. Probably harder because a linked CS will push almost 200k EHP (more if blinged like all t3s, that's all T2 barring a single faction plate) and have and over 700 dps - all for less than a basic T3 cost (change out of 450m). Infinitely more replaceable. They'll not be as good, I am not disputing that. But for zero SP loss and literally half the price? Who cares!

What I am saying is that they will become the next top dog. Shall we clamour to nerf them too?



T3's are broken. NOT fixing them for the sake of 'what will people complain about next' doesn't stop them from being broken. Nothing else can be balanced properly until T3's are done. That's been the case since tiercide started.


Like I said, I don't think they are all that broken. They are not as far ahead of the competition as many posts would have us believe. They could be brought down pretty quickly and pretty far with even minor tweaks.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#65 - 2016-08-15 12:36:44 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You need to take a look at your command ship fittings, but you're missing my point. If T3s ceased to exist tomorrow, they could and would be replaced by command ships. People would STILL complain. Probably harder because a linked CS will push almost 200k EHP (more if blinged like all t3s, that's all T2 barring a single faction plate) and have and over 700 dps - all for less than a basic T3 cost (change out of 450m). Infinitely more replaceable. They'll not be as good, I am not disputing that. But for zero SP loss and literally half the price? Who cares!

What I am saying is that they will become the next top dog. Shall we clamour to nerf them too?



T3's are broken. NOT fixing them for the sake of 'what will people complain about next' doesn't stop them from being broken. Nothing else can be balanced properly until T3's are done. That's been the case since tiercide started.


Like I said, I don't think they are all that broken. They are not as far ahead of the competition as many posts would have us believe. They could be brought down pretty quickly and pretty far with even minor tweaks.



Fair. I'm not much of a fan of nerfing the crap out of their combat attributes either, though they DO need to be nerfed enough to remove that battleship tank, be it through less buffer, lower resists, or higher sig, whatever. But I do agree that they can do entirely too many things at the same time entirely too well, or at least can do a few things a far cry better than they should, to the point of negating most any reason to fly several other ship classes.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2016-08-15 12:44:54 UTC
I only really feel like it is recons which are properly having their toes stomped on. I'm very wary of making the meta shift to hulls 95% as strong but half the price (and with no SP loss) for use as "ships of the line". The command ship I mentioned costs nearly the same as an unfit machariel and they're pretty much disposable as it is.

A cheeky sig&mass increase in the main tank mods to make it a bit bigger and slower and a single rig loss (losing a single trimark from a prot knocks nearly 30k ehp off it) would likely go a long, long way. Same again for the recon electronics sub, make them really pay for it.
Dethahal Khardula
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2016-08-15 12:52:04 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


A cheeky sig&mass increase in the main tank mods to make it a bit bigger and slower and a single rig loss (losing a single trimark from a prot knocks nearly 30k ehp off it) would likely go a long, long way. Same again for the recon electronics sub, make them really pay for it.


Oh well, you are right, ecm ships are mainly armor tanked -> rig remove is tank remove. But what are the effects on other configurations? Definitely a big thing for buffer tanks, but for example on the tengu it mainly decreases the dps/application, and the tank stays the same (safe you use an ecm armor tengu, in this case tank gets increased).

You see, the many configurations do not make it easier to balance them, more like harder
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#68 - 2016-08-15 13:01:10 UTC
I didn't mean that as a specific change, that was just a simple example of how a fairly "minor" change will make a significant change to the ship and my be enough alone to restructure the meta.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#69 - 2016-08-15 22:32:08 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Ed: I'm also apparently in the minority in that I don't mind T3s. They've expensive to fit correctly, have SP loss and are still nowhere near as ubiquitous as older "problem" hulls ever were. Something is always "best", these have decent trades imo. I've said it repeatedly before: If you nerf T3Cs the heavyweights are going to roll into command ships instead and then you'll have people moaning about them.

Cost is never a good balancing option. Especially now that SP loss (A bad mechanic to begin with that should have never been implemented as an excuse for OP ships) is simply a cost via skill injectors anyway.

Command ships come with a set of downsides, namely mobility problems. And baring one particular CS don't have the same sort of tank as a T3 in tank mode anyway (and that one has terrible DPS instead), especially once Sig is taken into account. So it's nowhere near as much of an issue if people jump into command ships instead of T3's.

Especially if T3's get put where they are meant to be which is versatile in space. The current subsystem arrangement does not create a versatile ship since it's so hard to refit in space. If the subsystems gave access to tactical modes, then you would be looking at a more suitable versatile in space ship, that should be between T1 & T2 at a particular role when in the right mode, at T1 power level when in the wrong mode, but since it can change modes it's more adaptable than any particular T2 to the current need. That is the slot CCP placed T3's in on their desired power/versatility chart. And still leaves reasons to fly a T3, but also to fly a T2.



You need to take a look at your command ship fittings, but you're missing my point. If T3s ceased to exist tomorrow, they could and would be replaced by command ships. People would STILL complain. Probably harder because a linked CS will push almost 200k EHP (more if blinged like all t3s, that's all T2 barring a single faction plate) and have and over 700 dps - all for less than a basic T3 cost (change out of 450m). Infinitely more replaceable. They'll not be as good, I am not disputing that. But for zero SP loss and literally half the price? Who cares!

What I am saying is that they will become the next top dog. Shall we clamour to nerf them too?

Ed: the exception are the bonused ewar effects, they cannot be replicated.

Slower. Not nullified. Bigger sig. Command Ships are not the go-to replacement in that case.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2016-08-15 23:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Rawketsled wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

Ed: I'm also apparently in the minority in that I don't mind T3s. They've expensive to fit correctly, have SP loss and are still nowhere near as ubiquitous as older "problem" hulls ever were. Something is always "best", these have decent trades imo. I've said it repeatedly before: If you nerf T3Cs the heavyweights are going to roll into command ships instead and then you'll have people moaning about them.

Cost is never a good balancing option. Especially now that SP loss (A bad mechanic to begin with that should have never been implemented as an excuse for OP ships) is simply a cost via skill injectors anyway.

Command ships come with a set of downsides, namely mobility problems. And baring one particular CS don't have the same sort of tank as a T3 in tank mode anyway (and that one has terrible DPS instead), especially once Sig is taken into account. So it's nowhere near as much of an issue if people jump into command ships instead of T3's.

Especially if T3's get put where they are meant to be which is versatile in space. The current subsystem arrangement does not create a versatile ship since it's so hard to refit in space. If the subsystems gave access to tactical modes, then you would be looking at a more suitable versatile in space ship, that should be between T1 & T2 at a particular role when in the right mode, at T1 power level when in the wrong mode, but since it can change modes it's more adaptable than any particular T2 to the current need. That is the slot CCP placed T3's in on their desired power/versatility chart. And still leaves reasons to fly a T3, but also to fly a T2.



You need to take a look at your command ship fittings, but you're missing my point. If T3s ceased to exist tomorrow, they could and would be replaced by command ships. People would STILL complain. Probably harder because a linked CS will push almost 200k EHP (more if blinged like all t3s, that's all T2 barring a single faction plate) and have and over 700 dps - all for less than a basic T3 cost (change out of 450m). Infinitely more replaceable. They'll not be as good, I am not disputing that. But for zero SP loss and literally half the price? Who cares!

What I am saying is that they will become the next top dog. Shall we clamour to nerf them too?

Ed: the exception are the bonused ewar effects, they cannot be replicated.

Slower. Not nullified. Bigger sig. Command Ships are not the go-to replacement in that case.


Barring Petes no ship of the line is nullified either.

As I said before, they're the next most powerful hull set and are close enough to present T3s that they would highly likely become more oppressive in a non-T3 world.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#71 - 2016-08-15 23:23:03 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
....
Barring Petes no ship of the line is nullified either.

As I said before, they're the next most powerful hull set and are close enough to present T3s that they would highly likely become more oppressive in a non-T3 world.


Then I undock my tech one Raven and shoot that command ship to Kingdom Come. Try dat with an unkillable proteus.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#72 - 2016-08-16 00:50:18 UTC
*still struggling to see why command ships are relevant to T3's being overpowered beyond 'do T3's do a command ships job better than a command ship or not'?*


So do we really need to keep going over which hull will be strong AFTER T3's are fixed before we've even had T3's anywhere near fixed?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#73 - 2016-08-16 01:25:21 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

As I said before, they're the next most powerful hull set and are close enough to present T3s that they would highly likely become more oppressive in a non-T3 world.

You are basing your argument on pure EFT warrioring, ignoring half the actual factors like for example sig size/speed and the effect it has on application. And the then carry on to tank that application actually has.

And even then as mentioned, the fact that you believe something else is close is no reason not to fix T3's.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2016-08-16 08:21:25 UTC
The argument of battleship tank and high DPS alone does not hold water when ships with fewer drawbacks can achieve the same thing (and as I pointed out, not complained about *yet*). As I said before only the recons are really fully overshadowed in their role.

@Kenrailae: The reason is twofold. Firstly that almost the nerfs proposed everywhere by players are over the top and would see them go into nigh obscurity and secondly that they are carrying decent trade offs to their power. The command ships are merely a convenient tool to point out that there is not *that* much between T3s and other ships and to highlight that the complaints of "better than HACs" are not really relevant. The very fact peope in this thread claimed they cannot get a high tank and maintain high DPS demonstrates another part of the issue at hand: People parroting the bandwagon without actually understanding fully where things sit against other hulls: "but but high tank and high dps" as if that is something exclusive to them alone. Again it would take very very little to bring these T3s down in power.

And lastly, cost is not the *sole* factor in balance, but it remains a factor nonetheless. Otherwise we'd not allow ships with multi-million EHP doing 5k DPS with battleship tracking.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#75 - 2016-08-16 09:20:11 UTC
Okay, so it's no longer relevant. Got it. We've already covered leaving T3's broken for fear of what people will complain about next is bad, and that T3's can do better at pretty much all the roles of most everything else, or too close too them. And we've already covered how no other hull can really be properly, definitively balanced until T3's are dealt with 1 way or another, BECAUSE T3's are capable of doing everything nearly as well or better, and pretty much negate the usage of so many other hulls. So let's get on with dealing with T3's, THEN see how the cookie crumbles.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2016-08-16 11:17:52 UTC
T3 cruisers are fine as they are. If they were not you'd see T3 cruisers everywhere instead of the current FOTM ships. The only T3 cruisers I see around Horde space are the occasional Tengu hotdropping tackler.

Our region is one of the most active for small gang pvp and I'd say I see a T3 cruiser once a day. The most common ships are T3D's, Garmurs, T1 cruisers (Caracals and Stabbers) and faction cruisers like the Orthrus and Cynabal.

The litmus test for something being OP is overuse and T3 cruisers are definitely not a common ship in our space.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2016-08-16 11:49:45 UTC
Please just take a large nerf hammer and beat the svipul into submision... and then hit it a few more times just to make sure.

Only until then can we do the same with the other TD3's that have made obsolete almost the entire combat 'frigate size' lineup...

No Worries

afk phone
Repo Industries
#78 - 2016-08-16 12:13:48 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
T3 cruisers are fine as they are. If they were not you'd see T3 cruisers everywhere instead of the current FOTM ships. The only T3 cruisers I see around Horde space are the occasional Tengu hotdropping tackler.

Our region is one of the most active for small gang pvp and I'd say I see a T3 cruiser once a day. The most common ships are T3D's, Garmurs, T1 cruisers (Caracals and Stabbers) and faction cruisers like the Orthrus and Cynabal.

The litmus test for something being OP is overuse and T3 cruisers are definitely not a common ship in our space.



They can't be alpha'd off the field by med sized n+1 doctrines, so they are OP.
They counter cheap kiting doctrines, so they are OP.

It's the BS tank w/ a cruiser sig radius that is problematic.



You don't see them in horde space because FC's aren't stupid. Here's how it works:

Small/Medium T3 gang will eventually (once you guys get your poop stacked just right) get raped by a bunch of T3 destroyers in your space. Folks just don't enjoy losing half a bil cruisers and SP to a bunch of chumps in T3 dessy and caracals. It gets old quickly, so it doesn't happen.

Large T3 fleets - you guys don't fight, because 100 rail tengus will just ruin your day in an unfun way.

So, you don't see T3 cruiser fleets in your space because it's NEVER fun for one side or the other. If you want to see T3 cruiser fleets in your space you have to stop flying svipul/caracal defense fleets. You don't see solo BS roaming your space picking fights either, because it just wouldn't be fun. Expensive fleets will never be the counter to your cheap chump fleets. Don't get me wrong - you're fleets are fine, just don't misinterpret T3 cruiser fleets being a bad idea in your space w/ T3 cruisers aren't OP.

"The litmus test for something being OP is overuse and T3 cruisers are definitely not a common ship in our space" is kind of like walking into a butcher shop and drawing a conclusion about ice cream, because there isn't any there.


I think in WH space the proteus/guardian/jamgu fleets died out for 2 reasons. They aren't fun for anyone on either side AND PL left and they were the last folks to be stuck in that tired, worn out WH meta. It works/worked great - it just wasn't any fun for either side. Once PL lost interest in WH space the focus moved more toward FUN and less toward WIN. WH space fleets are pretty varied right now. There is a bit more cerb than I care for in wh space, but it is the risk averse 'go to' fleet right now. I'd give a thumbs up to removing damage bonus for RLML from every ship in the game (I dislike kiting - a personal play style thing).

LS - let the last round of carrier adjustments settle out for another month or so. I think it will come down to 2 doctrines. (1-push cyno button, 2-more cerbs than the other guy AND keep finger on cyno button).
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#79 - 2016-08-16 12:36:17 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Okay, so it's no longer relevant. Got it. We've already covered leaving T3's broken for fear of what people will complain about next is bad, and that T3's can do better at pretty much all the roles of most everything else, or too close too them. And we've already covered how no other hull can really be properly, definitively balanced until T3's are dealt with 1 way or another, BECAUSE T3's are capable of doing everything nearly as well or better, and pretty much negate the usage of so many other hulls. So let's get on with dealing with T3's, THEN see how the cookie crumbles.



Thing is I am not seeing the we can't fix others till t3 fixed.


I will argue t3 can be favored just because the other stuff is not so good. Give some a reason to fly the t2 and they'd do it. Cut pvp costs in half...and have it viable to do so and many would say hell yeah.

Some will still favor the t3. yes. have billions people will say screw it, lets roll them out. 0.0 can't judge here. Unless they kicked out all the people who thought a perfectly reasonable response to engaging a bs only fleet was/is to drop blap caps on them instead of making a night of it and...you know....counter with your own BS's. try to meet on somewhat equals terms just to actually have a real fight for a change. hey man we paid money for these caps, we are gonna use them.

That I can dig if a reason. Now accept that reasoning is now being used by t3 roamers. they are paying 1 billion+ too...and they want to have fun with that isk spent. BS fleet couldn't kill your caps, now your hac can't kill their t3. karma is a ***** sometimes.

back to sometimes you have no choice issue. Since tengu said lot of times. When the choice is this or cerb its not a choice. have isk, tengu. Its always been a kind of meh hac. Even when t3's were more rare years ago. Its only good role I found for it was anti-falcon duties. it was the only hac on a hac roam that cleared falcon jam range. Shoot the falcon till it dies...or leaves. Either way the jams go away. Anything else...blah really.


And CCP did fix this at one point. Gave it a nice rapid light bonus. And we cerb pilots said thank you...the curse lifted and we have a new legit role. We did it well, and other hacs liked us, they really liked us. We no longer got the can you fly something else line. joke response to that being well eagle but you know...To which fleet chat responded yeah, we know. Smack them frigs around cerb...get em boy get em.

CCP nerfed that in one of the fastest nerf patch turnarounds I have seen in this game. Our shining moment lasted maybe a few weeks. Rapid light bonus castrated and back to meh-villa went the cerb.

Eagle almost the same sad story. yay they finally fixed medium hybrids. And then....nerfed them. Apparently caldari can't have nice things beyond tengu basically.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#80 - 2016-08-16 20:12:36 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
All that gibberish




Boils down to:


Price is NOT a balancing point.


and






There isn't a reason to fly most the other stuff because T3's do it all, and do it better. CCP can keep tweaking and adjusting everything they want around T3's here til server close, but all the other classes are never going to be able to be properly adjusted until T3's are dealt with.



The cerb you bring up is one of the very rare instances where a ship in its class actually out performs or matches a T3.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal